tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post5297856632198492515..comments2024-03-28T02:21:17.452-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Friday Open ThreadMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger138125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-54575098713810478142015-03-18T07:55:39.075-07:002015-03-18T07:55:39.075-07:00Speddie, you seem to have me completely figured ou...Speddie, you seem to have me completely figured out. There's little reason then for me to share my thoughts with you. You already know what I intend and hope for and what I give a s$$t about. <br /><br />I'm glad you've got it all figured out. Some of us can only hope for the wisdom and prescience that you have.<br /><br />Best of luck to you.<br /><br />--- swkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-59289360385131559232015-03-18T07:35:23.281-07:002015-03-18T07:35:23.281-07:00SWK, keep up with the times. There are programs ...SWK, keep up with the times. There are programs in colleges for students with severe disabilities popping up all over the places, eg, those who work at different levels and on different parts of different levels, including those with intellectual disabilities. Bellevue College has Navigators program, for one and there are others. No, not everyone is going to be "college ready". Sounds like "modified" adaptations might not really be over, as you for some reason hope. But really. Having a high school diploma doesn't really mean s$$$t in the adult world - for anyone. Why would we deny whatever it does bestow - to our students with disabilities?<br /><br />The bottom line is that the nature of college itself is changing. SBAC retains and prepares students for and old way of thinking, to the detriment of students with disabilities, and many others.<br /><br />SpeddieAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-34878863729382303952015-03-18T06:02:15.582-07:002015-03-18T06:02:15.582-07:00Speddie, I can understand your anger. And I don’t...Speddie, I can understand your anger. And I don’t fault you for your misplaced lashing out at me. I imagine it does seem as if the deck is stacked against your kid and you, and maybe it is.<br /><br />But let me tell you a little about what I do give a s$$t about --- when I first started my career in education, I began as a special education assistant in an 18-21 year old transition program. Those were the days of the “deferred diploma” --- any readers remember those? A deferred diploma was given to students in special education who had met all of the high school graduation requirements but had not yet met their IEP transition goals, so they could stay in the public school program until the met their goals or aged out.<br /><br />The week I started I sat down with a 21-year-old student with learning disabilities who was trying to get into a program at Lake Washington Technical Program and he had just taken the COMPASS placement test. We joined the college counselor to talk about his scores and next steps. Turns out that he was reading significantly below high school level and he didn’t qualify, not even close, for any of the programs at the technical college. He listened to what she said and immediately burst into tears and kept repeating, “But I have a diploma. I have a diploma.” He was inconsolable. I will never forget that moment. Never. I was 25 years old and I was trying to understand what was happening and trying to console a young man not much younger than me. The school system had just kept passing him along and gave him a diploma that was not worth the paper it was written on.<br /><br />I vowed then to work to make sure that never happened again. I got my special education teaching certification. When I worked with high school students and their families on transition planning and life after high school, I attempted to be as honest as possible with them and to help those students build what skills I could in the limited time I had them.<br /><br />So, Speddie, if you have a high school kid who is reading and/or doing math below 5th grade (or 3rd grade according to the Common Core and the SBAC assessments), passing those off-grade assessments and earning that diploma is going to mean next to nothing in the adult world if they don’t focus on their transition plans. Don’t get me wrong --- that diploma and walking across that stage might mean a great deal to your kid and your family. But that diploma won’t mean s$$t to the adult world. The days of modified grades, modified curriculum, modified passing scores, etc. will be over. Yes, ADA requires reasonable accommodations for people/adults with disabilities but they still have to meet college entrance/placement requirements if they want to go to college (or an apprenticeship training program) and they have to meet minimum job requirements.<br /><br />If you think the K-12 special education programs are s$$t, wait until you get to adult disability programs.<br /><br />--- swkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-34267957577339777702015-03-17T22:34:01.492-07:002015-03-17T22:34:01.492-07:00I have empathy with you, Speddie. It is hard to ch...I have empathy with you, Speddie. It is hard to change the culture. This blog is evidence of that every day. Look at all the very intelligent bloggers here who still haven't made the difference. Sometimes I do think it is hopeless. Well,at least out of control.nnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-23621805024201569652015-03-17T18:50:32.176-07:002015-03-17T18:50:32.176-07:00How about SBAC authors write reasonable tests.... ...How about SBAC authors write reasonable tests.... You know the ones where pass means pass, and with reasonable goals, not an aspirational goals. Tests where students actually have been taught the materials in classes all along, not just whatever some company thinks will drive a textbook market. If all the other kids are taking this at a particular level and failing, but without penalty, special ed students should also not be penalized when they take it for graduation. How about the state consider the 14% special ed participation of districts like Seattle. <br /><br />Great, your answer is right in line with "so sue me", "we don't give a s$$$t about your kid". And that simply doesn't work for my kid.<br /><br />SpeddieAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-9306221655305714662015-03-17T15:47:57.129-07:002015-03-17T15:47:57.129-07:00Speddie, I would suggest that if there is not a st...Speddie, I would suggest that if there is not a state test/SBAC assessment that is appropriate for use for students in special education that districts and parents should demand that the LDA (Locally Determined Assessments) option be expanded for use prior to 12th grade.<br /><br />--- swkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-69716567600372990732015-03-17T14:57:00.559-07:002015-03-17T14:57:00.559-07:00Sorry, that was me. Didn't realize I entered ...Sorry, that was me. Didn't realize I entered as anonymous. Fast fingers I guess.<br /><br />I think "opinion" has a pretty specific definition. I didn't follow the source but it appears that it came out of the SBAC consortium.<br /><br />You're sharp and informed so I'll move myself to the watcher column. And, yes, I agree it pretty much depends on how it is all applied. For our kids sake, I hope reasonable people preside.nnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-85938948807814445032015-03-17T14:44:01.964-07:002015-03-17T14:44:01.964-07:00@ Anon at 2:13 (maybe you are "n"?)
Dep...@ Anon at 2:13 (maybe you are "n"?)<br /><br />Depends on what you mean by opinion. Those may reflect the rates at which kids will score in the level 1 or level 2 range, but what I'm saying is that does not necessarily mean "failure." The author's choice to call a score in the level 2 range a "fail" is an application of the author's opinion. I have not seen anywhere in the SBAC docs that a level 2, or even a level 1, score is a "fail." Nor have they defined a "pass." Instead, they have set a level that they feel constitutes "college readiness," and that apparently they have some buy-in from colleges (at least for the time being). The SBE will define what "pass" means in WA. <br /><br />It seems like the problem is in the realistic vs. idealistic score requirements, and the timing of their release. The level 3 college ready scores came out first, and the numbers look really bad. People are naturally worried! However, had the graduation requirement score thresholds come out first--with a statement saying here's what you need to graduate--and then had the "college ready" designation level been added as an additional piece later-- I think they could have avoided a lot of confusion and unease. <br /><br />HIMSmomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-23759528214117689042015-03-17T14:37:27.443-07:002015-03-17T14:37:27.443-07:00So SWK... what about the high school student that ...So SWK... what about the high school student that was going take the 3rd Grade MSP? But now, it's really more like the 5th grade MSP, or some other thing not previously used with standards completely not taught? What test will you tell them they should take?<br /><br />In point of fact, high school students are being asked this month to amend IEPs because the SBAC wasn't even an allowable option on previous, existing IEPs. ALL the IEPs existing today (created by IEPonline) say how a student will take the HSPE/MSP/EOC. There's no mention of SBAC at all - there's only a WASL/MSP section - which isn't even available. The whole thing is a gigantic bungle. It sounds like a huge loophole for the legally minded. eg. Our IEPs promised us an HSPE - but no, we get this.<br /><br />SpeddieAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-10937849769102496222015-03-17T14:31:00.185-07:002015-03-17T14:31:00.185-07:00Finally, we have education to keep the playing fie...Finally, we have education to keep the playing field equal - or the most equal we can. But it can't just be the school.<br /><br />Children from poverty who were successfully educated and who went on to successful post-high school or college careers most likely had a strong parent - one or two. Without that third leg - student, teacher, parent - moving a child out of poverty or providing a successful education for that child is pretty darn hard to do. If it is even possible.<br /><br />These wide generalities drive me crazy. Dig a little deeper: as Obama said much to his later regret, nobody does it on his or her own. It takes a teacher, a society, a support system of some sort to become successful. <br /><br />Also, I wonder how many children who do not succeed in school are the victims of undiagnosed dyslexia. Schools do not do a good job with learning disorders and I would posit that most of our under-educated and least successful citizens are victims of undiagnosed learning disabilities.<br /><br />Finally, if anyone watched the Martin Spurlock show on beekeeping, you saw him identify the toxin that is causing the loss of bee populations in this country. When that toxin was finally identified, European countries immediately ordered it out of use. Americans are still thinking about it. <br /><br />I wonder why? <br /><br />That's what we are doing to our kids. Filling them with environmental junk that messes with brains, hormones, and every other toxin and drug that chemical companies profit by.<br /><br />Why are we even arguing about teachers? We such a small part of the whole problem in this country.<br /><br />I'm getting annoyed as I write! Better end I guess. :)nnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-84931906316410411982015-03-17T14:21:09.511-07:002015-03-17T14:21:09.511-07:00Enough Already, I do agree with you about our unio...Enough Already, I do agree with you about our union. But it is driven by high school teachers. Elementary has changed by its own union has not caught up to that change. There are many more K-5s than high schools and each elementary is an empire for a principal who is generally given full support by re<br /><br />K-5teachers are overworked and they have little time for activist stuff. Also, we are composed primarily by women who still don't understand the need for taking tough stands. In addition, a principal in an elementary is much closer to a little dictator. Our principal came from sped (as do many principals) and is very controlling. Teachers can be easily punished for speaking up or going against the desires of our principal. <br /><br />I do not ever wish for parents to become second-guessers when it comes to principals and the management of buildings. But we are very much at the whim of our principals these days. And the union does not back us.<br /><br />It is not as simple as it sounds. I, too, wish for stronger and more responsive leadership and a work force that is truly is solidarity. We have, unfortunately, neither at this point.nnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-80240236207956551832015-03-17T14:13:21.247-07:002015-03-17T14:13:21.247-07:00This from the Connecticut article:
According the ...This from the Connecticut article:<br /><i><br />According the Smarter Balanced Assessment Consortium Disaggregated Field Test Data for 2014, the cut scores that have been set for this year’s test are designed to produce the following results:<br /><br />Projected Failure Rate for Special Education Students with IEPs on the Common Core SBAC Math Section<br />4th Grade Math – Special Education Students with IEPs 87.1% WILL FAIL<br />6th Grade Math – Special Education Students with IEPs 91.3% WILL FAIL<br />8th Grade Math – Special Education Students with IEPs 90.3% WILL FAIL<br />11TH Grade Math – Special Education Students with IEPs 92.5% WILL FAIL<br /><br /> <br /><br />Projected Failure Rate for Special Education Students with IEPs on Common Core SBAC English (ELA) Section<br />4th Grade Math – Special Education Students with IEPs 83.6% WILL FAIL<br />6th Grade Math – Special Education Students with IEPs 90.1% WILL FAIL <br />8th Grade Math – Special Education Students with IEPs 91.5% WILL FAIL<br />11TH Grade Math – Special Education Students with IEPs 91% WILL FAIL<br /><br /> <br /><br />These are the official projected results based on the SBAC Field Test of 2014 and the Pass/Fail “cut scores” adopted by the SBAC Committee in November 2014.</i><br /><br />This doesn't sound like opinion but I'm willing to be corrected.<br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-39265764414664185312015-03-17T14:13:19.048-07:002015-03-17T14:13:19.048-07:00And swk, I did figure they wouldn't actually p...And swk, I did figure they wouldn't actually produce such a score. But the language does suggest a recognition that were they to do so, it might be lower, no?<br /><br />HIMSmomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-61238314837735668782015-03-17T14:10:32.556-07:002015-03-17T14:10:32.556-07:00swk,
Are you sure? If so, that's interesting ...swk,<br /><br />Are you sure? If so, that's interesting given these statements in SBAC's "Interpretation and Use of Scores and Achievement Levels" document, adopted November 14, 2014.<br /><br /><i>The Achievement Level Descriptors presented here are linked to an operational definition of <b>college content-readiness</b> to inform score interpretation for high schools and colleges.</i> <br /><br /><i>Smarter Balanced does not yet have a parallel operational definition and framework for <b>career readiness</b>.</i><br /><br />What gives?<br /><br />HIMSmomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-3895264784473259722015-03-17T13:06:04.271-07:002015-03-17T13:06:04.271-07:00Speddie, the IEP team gets to decide what grade-le...Speddie, the IEP team gets to decide what grade-level assessment students in special education will take for high school graduation purposes. If the SBAC assessments are considerably more difficult than the MSP at each grade level, the IEP can determine the most appropriate grade level on the SBAC assessments.<br /><br />In other words, if a high school student in special education was previously to take a 5th grade MSP because it aligned with the student's IEP goals and objectives but now the SBAC 3rd grade is more closely aligned to the 5th grade MSP, the IEP team has the right to determine that the 3rd grade SBAC assessment is the appropriate graduation assessment for the student.<br /><br />--- swkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-7203799725164496362015-03-17T13:01:06.164-07:002015-03-17T13:01:06.164-07:00HIMSmom, the current SBAC cut score is a "col...HIMSmom, the current SBAC cut score is a "college AND career ready" cut score. They will not be setting a separate career ready cut score.<br /><br />--- swkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-13224869524633939012015-03-17T12:27:55.406-07:002015-03-17T12:27:55.406-07:00HIMmom. Students with disabilities use the elemen...HIMmom. Students with disabilities use the elementary and middle school SBACs as their graduation requirement test. So, yes - passing does really matter. Is the state board going to set a "high school" graduation pass rate different for each grade, which is somehow different than "college ready".? For those students who are using it for graduation? I don't think so. And, that's not what OSPI says. OSPI says students with disabilities must pass an out of grade level test at standard. Obviously, there's no multi-tiered concept of "passing". If you're saying - oh well, it's really no big deal if a bunch of people "fail" (or whatever you want to call it) at lower levels... so long as there's a way to pass the high school test. I really don't see that flying. Furthermore - the standards have changed over the years - and now to require high school students with disabilities to pass tests, at any level, for materials that have changed, seems completely unfair.<br /><br /><br />SpeddieAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-76424758267749815192015-03-17T12:01:33.399-07:002015-03-17T12:01:33.399-07:00@ n, Yes, a lot of the commentaries out there are ...@ n, Yes, a lot of the commentaries out there are using sloppy language like "fail" and "not pass." The authors apparently never bothered to look at what it actually means to score at the various levels the SBAC arbitrarily created. If a kid doesn't score at what the SBAC has identified as level 3 or above, does that really represent "failure" or "not passing"? Are states or districts really planning to use those SBAC levels to determine pass/fail?<br /><br />In WA, the State Bd of Ed said they'll set the high school proficiency threshold score much lower, perhaps even somewhere in the level 1 range. That score, when identified, WOULD be a valid one to use in the context of "failing" or "not passing." But it won't match the SBAC score that everyone is freaking out about. And I don't think the SBAC folks themselves have ever referred to not reaching level 3 as "not passing" or "failing" either--as far as I can tell, that language comes from lazy reporters and anti-SBAC advocates.<br /><br />Please also note that the cut score at the heart of all this alarm is the SBAC-generated "college ready" threshold. They have not, however, released a "career ready" cut score. Presumably such a score would be much lower, and more consistent with the high school proficiency threshold set to be set by the WA SBE, since a score sufficient for graduation should also be somewhat reflective of an education that can get you some sort of job once you're out. (But if that's not the case, then we by all means need much higher graduation standards!)<br /><br />HIMSmomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-52846677391404148002015-03-17T11:26:23.715-07:002015-03-17T11:26:23.715-07:00Sleeper, discussion is good and thank you for expa...Sleeper, discussion is good and thank you for expanding it.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-38864097081020782302015-03-17T10:43:13.830-07:002015-03-17T10:43:13.830-07:00I actually do not believe that education by itself...I actually do not believe that education by itself can overcome poverty (and believe that the greater we allow wealth inequality to become through our other policies, the less education can do to equalize and overcome it), but education is critical for an educated populace to make decisions about governance and form a more progressive society. I also believe an uneducated populace becomes subservient to corporations and the extremely wealthy very quickly. There are lots of reasons to have education even if you don't think it can overcome poverty on its own.<br /><br /><br />Not that you were asking for everyone's opinion, but I think that is an interesting question.<br /><br />-sleeperAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-64033167614919211922015-03-17T09:52:04.711-07:002015-03-17T09:52:04.711-07:00"If it's an equalizer, and therefore a ne... "If it's an equalizer, and therefore a necessity in a democracy - then you've got to believe that it is something that teachers CAN OVERCOME: poverty and situation. Because... if it can't do that - then why have it at all. If education isn't something that can equalize, and overcome poverty and ignorance... well then, it's just a benefit for the already benefitted. Not so interesting."<br /><br />I hardly know where to start.<br /><br />Of course, good teaching (in good schools) can overcome poverty. There are many examples of this in all parts of our country.<br /><br />But when you stack the deck - 23% of US kids living in poverty, schools that have over 40,50.60% of the entire school F/RL, and differences in PTA funds, then you are asking a lot of teachers. Especially if their classrooms are not fully funded to do the job in the first place.<br /><br />As for your "why have education at all" if teachers can't overcome poverty statement, I am just gobsmacked. We have public education for the public good. <br />Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-25954221051992650192015-03-17T08:44:58.684-07:002015-03-17T08:44:58.684-07:00I am no longer in SEA or WEA since I moved on to g...I am no longer in SEA or WEA since I moved on to greener pastures. <br /><br />When you are in something you don't agree with, you try to change it. When you realize you are surrounded by apathethic people who care more about being a "professional organization" organization than a being union (which you need when you get a "lunch break"), and have the means to move on, you move on.<br /><br />So, yes, SEA is a joke and I stand by that. By and large, the teachers in SPS are complacent. Like I stated on another thread, Chicago teachers would put up with the crap SEA has been complicit with when it rains in hell.<br /><br />--enough alreadyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-28083141173272084272015-03-17T07:26:07.441-07:002015-03-17T07:26:07.441-07:00You know, enough already, the SEA is you and your ...You know, enough already, the SEA is you and your co-workers. Calling your union a joke is fine but it's not that hard to win an election and change it. Unfortunately, the membership is apathetic and unmotivated, maybe even anti-union to some degree.The NW tradition of labor activism does not carry over into the teachers union, sadly. I'd be surprised if most teachers even know much about the battles waged here for workers' rights. Centralia Massacre?<br /><br />robocopAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-37148443351279382762015-03-17T00:54:31.396-07:002015-03-17T00:54:31.396-07:00Reader,
Teachers do make a difference with studen...Reader,<br /><br />Teachers do make a difference with students living in poverty.<br />If they don't, they should be transferred or fired. <br /><br />Research also indicates that smaller class sizes, a systems approach to services, and students who are integrated into schools with lower FRL are significant factors.<br /><br />Teachers didn't "sign on" to give these tests. Many don't support them. Not enough teachers are active in their unions and are complacent until it hits them like this potential evaluation based on state tests.<br /><br />SEA got its teachers to actually sign up to use assessment for evaluations right after the MAP was approved. Teachers were "stunned" when the district decided MAP would be used in evaluations--even after telling teachers that wasn't the intention of MAP. Shocking!<br />SEA is a complete joke and WEA isn't far behind.<br /><br />I taught back before NCLB and was horrified at the lack of accountability at, especially, schools with high FRL. I actually welcomed NCLB for that reason. Instead, it has morphed into (or perhaps that was the goal all along) a corporate attempt to takeover schools by, in part, demonizing teachers--and not just the bad ones.<br /><br />I want no part of this testing frenzy--for students, schools or society. I do want public schools that work for all children.<br /><br />--enough alreadyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-85522562875077218442015-03-17T00:43:00.839-07:002015-03-17T00:43:00.839-07:00Here is one more SBAC commentary that does use the...Here is one more SBAC commentary that does use the word "fail" regarding sped students. This from Connecticut. They list projected failure rates by grade level.<br /><br />http://jonathanpelto.com/2015/02/23/common-core-sbac-test-designed-id-9-10-special-education-children-failures/<br /><br />One doesn't know what to think. <br />nnoreply@blogger.com