tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post5332401208264682546..comments2024-03-27T20:01:11.889-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Friday Open ThreadMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-9565475156590952232012-10-18T12:19:23.978-07:002012-10-18T12:19:23.978-07:00Jan, thanks for your eloquent clarification. I sti...Jan, thanks for your eloquent clarification. I still have a problem with the way they used the name "honor roll," but it does sound as though the school did pretty well with the practice otherwise.<br /><br />Helen Schinskehschinskehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10316478950862562594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-65751491038300398412012-10-17T16:18:49.870-07:002012-10-17T16:18:49.870-07:00Helen -- your thoughts are wonderful, as always. ...Helen -- your thoughts are wonderful, as always. This thread is old -- but if you are still reading, let me elaborate on my earlier post. In my child's school, there were no "entrance exams" -- no PSEE, or whatever is used, though there was an "interview." There was a huge range of abilities, and the school was so small they could not do "ability grouping." Thus kids (like mine) who could have easily worked a full year ahead in math had no opportunity to do so (clearly, not a place you would send an APP kid to in most cases, but plenty of spectrum types, all the way down to some pretty involved SPED issues). <br /><br />The grades in classes reflected achievement. But the "honor roll" was pure effort. ANY kid could get on it, as long as they were willing to master a planner, and just do all the work. The school backed it up in two ways: <br />(a) by NOT giving "stupid" homework. There were no "dioramas," no "construct a civil war building and write a report to go with it." Arguably, some of the math homework my kid did was stuff he already knew -- but really, most of it was good for him, and all of it was reasonable. To keep him challenged in math -- we just did more of it at home; and<br />(b) valuing and celebrating hard work. This meant that all the "smart" kids could be (and many were) also on the honor roll -- but anyone could get his/her name on the list by just committing to hard work.<br />AND -- none of this applied to the stuff like "getting signatures in," etc. -- the stuff that "counted for grades" in high school merely to make the teachers' administrative tasks easier. <br /><br />It was one of the most intellectual schools any of my kids attended -- because love of learning and hard work, rather than gaming the system for grades, formed the basis of the community's value system. <br /><br />I don't mean to denigrate giftedness here; and I deplore the "gamey" sorts of grading systems that people have discussed above. I think that sometimes there is far too little thought put into what values are taught by our evaluation systems, and how to actually inspire kids (as opposed to annoying and discouraging them). <br /><br />To me, the "heart" of the system that worked for my kids was the intentional teaching that came from the faculty -- "we care about character; we care about helping you form strong habits to succeed in high school; we care less about exactly where you ARE in terms of what you know, than what you are doing to move forward. We honor your hard work and effort, even if the grade on the paper is a "C." As I am writing this, I am realizing -- maybe it worked so well not because the actual system was so good -- but because the incredible faculty that put it into place was of one mind on the joy and value of learning (and working hard to do so).Janhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09923777229601243321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-83561903381621010212012-10-15T11:10:46.891-07:002012-10-15T11:10:46.891-07:00Thanks for your kind words, D.
Helen SchinskeThanks for your kind words, D.<br /><br />Helen Schinskehschinskehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10316478950862562594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-87498033407924596432012-10-15T11:01:35.832-07:002012-10-15T11:01:35.832-07:00Wow. Asking students to actually do something when...<i>Wow. Asking students to actually do something when they get into a classroom really isn't the same thing as "sneering" at them.</i><br /><br />Okay, look. This is not just theoretical here. Look at all the kids at Hamilton who have had to take math classes a year or more below where they belong. Should they really not be able to get A's in math <i>just because it's easy for them to do so</i>? What the heck kind of sense would that make? <br /><br />This is their year to get credit for algebra or geometry. They know their stuff, they come to class, they do their homework, they ace the tests. That's not no work. That's a lot of hours that they're putting in. It's not their fault the administration wouldn't let the teachers have a third year of high school math. <br /><br />I don't know how to make this any clearer. You're the one who postulated "a student [who] may show up already at the honor roll level, and actually having achieved nothing at all in the timeframe the award is for." That's a straw man. And yes, it's sneering to suggest that it's the student's fault when there was no class at their level for them to even sign up for, or they were forbidden to sign up for it -- as did happen at Hamilton.<br /><br />Helen Schinskehschinskehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10316478950862562594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-26325022965641755572012-10-15T10:20:54.784-07:002012-10-15T10:20:54.784-07:00Thanks for the info, Charlie; I suspect the 240-is...Thanks for the info, Charlie; I suspect the 240-ish number we've been given from the district involves taking that 265 capacity and subtracting off room for the developmental preschools. That seems about right.<br /><br />But it still doesn't explain why Director Carr is so certain our current capacity is 400-500 kids. Puzzling indeed.Josh Hayeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17242600011474990770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-38467309938663989982012-10-15T10:13:58.249-07:002012-10-15T10:13:58.249-07:00I think formal education should fundamentally be a...I think formal education should fundamentally be about learning and fostering what actually helps people reach their potential and live meaningful lives. In the service of that, penalizing for a lack of "effort" seems incredibly counterproductive. In thinking about what will work for best for my children, I like to look at what has worked educationally for people over the long haul. My best firsthand example is my grandfather, who went from growing up in a small town in the south to getting a PHD in Mathematics and teaching at an Ivy League school. His passion for his subject was profound, and he also spent a great deal of time delighting in learning all kinds of other things until the day he died. He was a person who knew what his calling was from a very early age. One the stories that defined his early education was from early high school: two weeks after the beginning of the term he brought his teacher a stack of papers with every problem from his math text solved, including everything assigned in the syllabus and all the supplementary work, and placed it neatly on her desk. At the time, this delighted the teacher. Obviously, this work came vary easily to him. In an effort-focused system, what should a student like this be made to do for the rest of the term? In a perfect world, they'd be moved on to something harder--and back when my grandparents were young, this seemed to be how schools responded. In a paradigm that fixates on effort or the consistency with which that effort is exerted, they're made to keep practicing a bunch of stuff they already know until they get really frustrated. It doesn't level the playing field, it just rewards a certain kind of "because we say so" diligence. When I was in school, the result of putting too heavy a weight on busywork and attendance was catastrophic for my education--if a 13- 14- or 15- year-old is being made to practice what they've already mastered, their school is failing them and it can spiral quickly. It is not the student's fault, and not all material can be accessed on a higher level--frequently it's very limited in scope and efforts to overshoot that mark are met with irritation. Now I have a high schooler in SPS--she's bright and generally hardworking and takes the most challenging classes available to her. She is, however, a little flaky. In recently looking at her grades, her test scores are solid, her homework is solid--nearly universally the one element that drags her grade down is the stuff that is trivially easy--remembering to get parents to sign things, filing out progress logs, etc. Giving a kid whose understanding of the material is good Ds for bringing signed papers back late is not accurately reflecting that student's achievement--while it is true that life is filled with things you need to do "just because," school should be about learning. Students who are giving their best effort to less than stellar results should probably be acknowledged for the value of their hard work--because it does have value--but the opposite should not be penalized. If things come easily to you in one arena, it's not a school's job to try and counter that. My grandfather also joked about his grades in Latin: for each of the 4 terms he took it his grade went down a step--A, B, C and finally D. Let students be supported to soar where they can, and know that life will take care of teaching them that not everything comes so easily.<br />--D is for Dropout<br /><br />(Helen, thank you for your perspective both here and on the APP blog--it's been very valuable to me.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-43453094878689210262012-10-15T00:55:56.012-07:002012-10-15T00:55:56.012-07:00It's considered an ideal result of education t...<i>It's considered an ideal result of education to be a curious lifelong learner -- to have that quality sneered at </i><br /><br />Wow. Asking students to actually do something when they get into a classroom really isn't the same thing as "sneering" at them. ??? And resting on your laurels isn't really evidence of "lifelong learning". I agree that students should get credit for having already learned something, but I'm not certain that they deserve to "ace" a class, as you put it, with no effort or evidence of work.<br /><br />-Another ParentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-11925414792072869082012-10-14T16:12:14.590-07:002012-10-14T16:12:14.590-07:00If the teacher is following the prescribed distric...If the teacher is following the prescribed district curriculum, which is light on content and full of simplistic demonstrations and experiments, that could explain some of the complaints. Despite having a well liked teacher last year, the actual science materials the teacher had to work with were not the greatest. There was no book that came home, and the teacher supplemented with weekly definitions he had typed up for the students.<br /><br />@HIMSAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-72311781674499408342012-10-14T15:45:35.326-07:002012-10-14T15:45:35.326-07:00"having the kids watch him look up vocabulary...<i>"having the kids watch him look up vocabulary definitions on wikipedia"</i><br /><br />I suggest figuring out which vocab he's likely to look up next and changing the Wikipedia entries right before class.<br /><br />Helen Schinskehschinskehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10316478950862562594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-73748809164077721542012-10-14T15:42:03.828-07:002012-10-14T15:42:03.828-07:00"Helen, material in any class can ALWAYS be a...<i>"Helen, material in any class can ALWAYS be accessed at many different levels. So what does it really mean to "Ace" the material and get on the honor roll?"</i><br /><br />As much as high grades ever mean. As I said, I don't personally put a lot of stock in honor rolls. But the whole attitude that you shouldn't get credit for already knowing something kind of frosts me. After all, you did whatever work it took to learn that in the first place. You read a book or thought about things or talked to people. Just because it wasn't in this year's class doesn't make you a lazy bum or your knowledge less valuable. <br /><br />When I was a sophomore in high school, we had to read <em>Macbeth</em>, a play I had already seen, become obsessed with, and read over and over. I still enjoyed the class discussions and learned a lot, but I probably spent less than a quarter as much time on the homework as everyone else, because I already knew the play and was just skimming to refresh my memory. I got top marks and praise from my teacher AND I DESERVED THEM. Plus I had more time to work on classes that were more difficult for me, or hell, just chill. Not a sin.<br /><br />It's considered an ideal result of education to be a curious lifelong learner -- to have that quality sneered at and related to laziness by the very people who are supposed to be fostering intellectual curiosity is quite damning. <br /><br />Helen Schinskehschinskehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10316478950862562594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-50313651052542886472012-10-14T15:23:09.400-07:002012-10-14T15:23:09.400-07:00Students is special education can get a regular di...Students is special education can get a regular diploma with a modified "certificate" if the content is significantly modified or they take the HSPE under modification. In that case, they get a certificate of individual acheivement and not a certificate of academic acheivement. So far, that hasn't been a huge limitation for students wishing to go on. Ever notice how some students pass the HSPE with a 2 - that is a modified special education standard. Special ed students needing only accommodations can get a regular certificate. Sometimes the line is fuzzy as to defining what's an accommodation and what's a modification. An accommodation might mean retaking the tests, having questions rephrased etc... I guess it could be a judgement call as to when the accommodation becomes a modification to the actual standard.<br /><br />-Sped ParentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-18690377455413919792012-10-14T14:57:37.963-07:002012-10-14T14:57:37.963-07:00The 6th grade APP science experience at Hamilton h...The 6th grade APP science experience at Hamilton has been a joke thus far. The teacher spends an inordinate amount of time showing youtube videos and having the kids watch him look up vocabulary definitions on wikipedia. I won't even get into the silly science experiments they are doing that would be more appropriate to a 2nd grade class.<br /><br />Then there's the whole grading craziness. First it was that no kid can ever improve their grade from their lowest test score (this was supposedly done to prevent the previously mentioned end of quarter "coasting"). Then the grades from the first test were "adjusted." Then on curriculum night we heard that grades were "corrected" again after the teacher spoke with other teachers. Hamilton is switching over to "standards based grading" and I don't think this teacher understands it. My child is not having the same grading issues with other teachers using this same system.<br /><br />Are other middle schools switching to this new grading system?<br /><br />-annoyed HIMS parentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-30452952073903797392012-10-14T14:38:06.492-07:002012-10-14T14:38:06.492-07:00'conjunctive' grading, which is intended t...<em> 'conjunctive' grading, which is intended to avoid kids 'coasting' for the A at the end of the semester if they have a high average</em><br /><br />If it's possible to "coast" at the end of the class, then either there isn't much vital being done at that time, or the grade weighting hitherto hasn't accurately reflected what proportion of the material the kids are supposed to have finished. Neither one is the kid's fault. <br /><br />In any case, a conscientious student won't usually coast, at least not to the point of doing their work any harm, because (a) they're in the habit of doing their work regularly, and (b) they may well actually care about learning something. Neither of those qualities is something you can put into a kid by means of ever more punitive grading. Punitive grading actually <em>promotes</em> practices like coasting, because it teaches kids to pay attention to the minutiae of their grades and look for loopholes.<br /><br />Helen Schinskehschinskehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10316478950862562594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-5738110154406377672012-10-14T14:23:01.307-07:002012-10-14T14:23:01.307-07:00@Not so sure about APP - 6th grade APP at HIMS had...@Not so sure about APP - 6th grade APP at HIMS had many issues last year. One of the complaints was age inappropriate material in 6th grade LA/SS (one class in particular), so the issues were around both curriculum and instructional quality. If you have concerns, speak up now with staff at HIMS. The science teacher is different than last year's 6th grade teacher.<br /><br />You will find some teachers believe adding "challenge" to a class means going beyond what is age appropriate both content wise and work load wise. Some believe kids need to experience failure, even if it means imposing unrealistic expectations. These attitudes have most often come from teachers with little to no gifted ed training.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-25960586500813796102012-10-14T12:18:40.329-07:002012-10-14T12:18:40.329-07:00Thank you Sped Parent,
I didn't have the expe...Thank you Sped Parent,<br /><br />I didn't have the experience to rebut the teacher's claim about modifications, though I know that sped students could get modifications in curriculum elementary & middle school. <br /><br />Does modification to high school curriculum mean that they have a modified diploma or are the credits somehow marked at modified? I was surprised to hear the concern about credit & modifications because I never understood 'credit' to have any standard meaning. So if credit means different things in different classes or different schools or between different students, how could modifying the curriculum be a problem?<br /><br />Any further enlightenment would be welcome.old salthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07971380233996439817noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-59636172442785454502012-10-14T12:03:11.857-07:002012-10-14T12:03:11.857-07:00Helen, material in any class can ALWAYS be accesse...<br />Helen, material in any class can ALWAYS be accessed at many different levels. So what does it really mean to "Ace" the material and get on the honor roll? If you demonstrate some level of "achievement" that required nothing from you, just because it's in some standard's book, that really shouldn't earn you anything special, except maybe a "pass" since you do actually need the credit at the high school level.<br /><br />I don't really think it's the school's fault for "not challenging" the student either as you put it. Students often elect the classes they take, and elect the level of depth they choose to take the subject. If schools decide to assign meaningless hoop-jumping for grades, yes, that's on the school. But, they don't have to do it that way.<br /><br />Another ParentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-22575067674210342572012-10-14T11:52:31.448-07:002012-10-14T11:52:31.448-07:00Old Salt says: She [the teacher] was upset that mi...Old Salt says: <i>She [the teacher] was upset that middle school sped students were coming to her class expecting modifications.</i><br /><br />Students with disabilities have <i>modified grades</i> on their IEPs. They have the right to modified content. They also have modified HSPEs. And, they may be getting a certificate of individual accomplishment. Where has this teacher been all these years? She's a bit of a bonehead if she doesn't know that by now. She needs to get with the IEP team and decide what standards the kid is supposed to be working at.<br /><br />-sped parentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-65793071029204569742012-10-14T06:13:32.030-07:002012-10-14T06:13:32.030-07:00To -Not so sure about APP
Gee, it sounds like wha...To <b>-Not so sure about APP</b><br /><br />Gee, it sounds like what we need is an aligned, written, taught and tested curriculum for APP. You know, like the one that we were promised would be implemented concurrent with the split. Like the one that the APP Review said we absolutely need. Like the one that we still don't have.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-52299928569753085642012-10-14T06:09:49.541-07:002012-10-14T06:09:49.541-07:00There is a district document that reports the capa...There is a district document that reports the capacity of Pinehurst.<br /><br />It's the <a href="http://www.seattleschools.org/modules/groups/homepagefiles/cms/1583136/File/Departmental%20Content/capacity%20management/CapPlg%20Mgmt_Annual%20__update%20021611.pdf" rel="nofollow">Capacity Planning and Management Annual Report January 2011</a>.<br /><br />Pinehurst appears on the report because it is one the "Capacity Challenges". On page 5, at the top, the District Capacity Management Report shows the K-5 capacity of Pinehurst (AS #1) as 175 and the 6-8 capacity as 90. This makes a total capacity of 265.<br /><br />That is the official capacity of Pinehurst according to the the District's own annual Capacity Management Report.<br /><br />Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-14279954324810140652012-10-13T23:45:04.245-07:002012-10-13T23:45:04.245-07:00On a different topic, how are 6th grade parents fe...On a different topic, how are 6th grade parents feeling about APP @ Hamilton this year? We have been surprised at what seem to be moving targets with grading, and some assignments that seem beyond the realm of appropriateness for 6th graders. The science teacher has instituted a new grading policy called 'conjunctive' grading, which is intended to avoid kids 'coasting' for the A at the end of the semester if they have a high average by 'linking' the high and low grades (so that lower grades count disproportionately). For our perfectionistic kid, this has been devastating - one missed homework assignment, and he thinks he's failing. The science teacher announced at curriculum night that he had made a mistake in his formulat that the HIMS math faculty helped him correct (and suddenly everyone's grades went up on the Source), and also announced by email this week that kids could make up work that they missed or done poorly on. The English teacher showed a 10th grade example for what she is expecting in writing, even though these kids are expected to perform at 8th grade level. Our kid has been in APP for several years, but is there something going on here that we're missing? Instructional quality issues or curriculum issues?<br />--Not so sure about APP<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-68861356854835429432012-10-13T23:42:25.892-07:002012-10-13T23:42:25.892-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-76976769710969511732012-10-13T23:39:50.670-07:002012-10-13T23:39:50.670-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Taliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14897410031361660831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-87003969012111484152012-10-13T22:54:02.921-07:002012-10-13T22:54:02.921-07:00Open the Jane Addams middle school immediately?? ...Open the Jane Addams middle school immediately?? As in next fall?<br /><br />A middle school is more than just kids assigned to an empty building! What are these people thinking?<br /><br />I understand how terrible the crowding is at Eckstein, but to want to kick kids out of Eckstein without a plan is unbelievably selfish and harsh, not to mention the damage this would do to Jane Addams K-8 and Pinehurst K-8.<br /><br />Unbelievable!<br /><br />-Eckstein Bound (and reconsidering)<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-1249561244930063002012-10-13T21:52:51.296-07:002012-10-13T21:52:51.296-07:00As an Eckstein parent, I think the overcrowding t...As an Eckstein parent, I think the overcrowding there is unsafe and damages learning opportunities. I do not think that moving JA & AS1 will solve that. It is just displacing other kids into really crowded environments. <br /><br />This is not new. Eckstein has more than 450 kids in portables. They can not open their lockers between classes because they can not give up the extra 9 inches that takes away from hall traffic. And don't even imagine what that means for the bathrooms, ugh. The district has known for years that it was bad and that is was going to get worse. <br /><br />Why can't Eckstein's 6th grade be moved into Lincoln? Roosevelt fit there so it must be big enough for LOL & 500 6th graders. And JA could take some portables to add to their middle school. Definitely use anti-gravity belts at AS1 & JA to attract middle schoolers who might otherwise go to Eckstein.<br /><br />-Eckstein ParentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-65003302202600384642012-10-13T21:40:37.651-07:002012-10-13T21:40:37.651-07:00Josh, I'm with you. Long-time observer of fac...Josh, I'm with you. Long-time observer of facilities and I have never seen Pinehurst above 400. I have no idea where it's coming from.<br /><br />Another NE parent, if it wasn't so troubling, your words would be very funny.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01485101844712536985noreply@blogger.com