tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post5656394840429200101..comments2024-03-28T02:21:17.452-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Seattle Schools This Week, December 12-17, 2016Melissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger159125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-4959141295130058622016-12-20T15:27:21.833-08:002016-12-20T15:27:21.833-08:00I will have a brief write-up on Bellevue SD (there...I will have a brief write-up on Bellevue SD (there was an article in the Times.) But also, just like everywhere else, Bellevue has its own race issues. Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-15875903373552283292016-12-20T14:55:12.230-08:002016-12-20T14:55:12.230-08:00@ org culture, what kind of "great math resul...@ org culture, what kind of "great math results"? At all levels, or specific grades? All schools, or specific ones? GE classes and/or gifted? Based on what type of outcomes? <br /><br />If you have any details to share, that would be more helpful.<br /><br />DisAPPointedAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-7339004650764012832016-12-20T09:46:40.987-08:002016-12-20T09:46:40.987-08:00Bellevue is getting written up for having great ma...Bellevue is getting written up for having great math results. Their program is different from our program, maybe more integrated? They have a range of languages and nationalities, but not the income disparities. Regardless, there must be something we can learn from them. Let's start with their org chart. Typically what you value shows up in the org chart. Anyone out there have time to figure out a side by side analysis of Bellevue School District central admin org chart compared to SPS?<br /><br />Org Culture Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-84927257049805993422016-12-20T09:37:24.630-08:002016-12-20T09:37:24.630-08:00Grade skipping isn't an ideal situation, for a...Grade skipping isn't an ideal situation, for a number of reasons. For one, I doubt many 2nd grade teachers want a bunch of K-age kids in their class. HC students may be cognitively and academically ready for K, but they are still 5-year-olds, and often still act like it. Would teachers be ready to deal with so much more developmental asynchrony? <br /><br />Two, they'd still be in Gen Ed classes. A second grade class might be enough for an entering K-age student, but what happens a little down the road, once they settle in? The pace of the class will likely be too slow, the depth of coverage too shallow, etc. Just because the material is covered a couple years earlier does not mean it's covered in an appropriate way to match the needs of HC students. cladses would still be geared toward GE students, who require significantly more repetition, etc.<br /><br />Three, classes would contain huge ranges of ages and abilities, requiring much more differentiation (or more likely, greater unmet needs). You'd have your regular range of GE students, plus some advanced Spectrum-type students opting to skip one year, plus some HCC type kids who were two years younger. Students wouldn't all magically mesh: rather the young ones would likely band together--for protection, and because as advanced students they'd have more in common. If people complain that "walk-to's" make kids feel bad for being in the low group, how do you think kids will feel if they have a bunch of kids two years younger in their class--and how will they feel when those little kids are outperforming them? It's a recipe for a big mess.<br /><br />Four, where do you draw the line? Can a kid skip ahead three years if they are ready? And can you only skip once, or can you skip more each year if it's too easy? What happens when you have 8-yr-olds in middle school or 12-yr-olds in high school? Do parents really want their HC kids graduating from high school at age 15-16 or even earlier? Do we want a bunch of 12-yr-ol freshmen going to high school dances? Playing on high school football teams? Etc? Or is it ok to deprive them of a typical childhood experience because they're HC?<br /><br />I'm sure there are more issues to consider as well. If Seattle only had a few gifted kids, this might be our best bet for dealing with it given the constraints. But that's not our situation. This would be a lazy, uncreative approach. We can do way better than this, creating programs that better serve all kids. <br /><br />Half FullAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-56523642318453876392016-12-20T06:07:20.137-08:002016-12-20T06:07:20.137-08:00"But the bitterness would be more appropriate..."But the bitterness would be more appropriately directed at the all the real-life factors that make this kind of program not a good fit for most kids instead of scapegoating the program."<br /><br />well good luck with that ml. sorry nothing will reduce the scapegoating. look at 9th graders at ghs. not hcc 9th graders, just 9th graders. they could have chosen either honors or not. that choice wasn't good enough. and they are still scapegoating in their malpractice review of the program... saying oh yeah no difference in performance. you bet if you continue iv's of hate-koolaid why should we expect a reasonable review. did we expect the teacher saying it was appartheid to say why did we do this? no. they will tell you whatever they need to support their dogma. <br /><br />sorry it is not. they are wrong. fwiw is wrong. anyone who thinks this is simple isn't paying attention. tolley, blandford and many others want to make hcc disappear. FOR ENROLLMENT. i have heard it said several times that the last minute adjustment of hcc kids is unpopular with principals that are losing kids. there is no stability. to protect the admin staff they decided why not just cut teachers who lose kids to hcc leaving whole school in a lurch. win win for tolley. <br /><br />-no caps /nc <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-57939577453126535682016-12-20T01:28:20.173-08:002016-12-20T01:28:20.173-08:00Parents already choose if they want to send their ...Parents already choose if they want to send their kids to kindergarten at 5 or 6. Why not just let them choose if they want the kid to enter into kindergarten (aka general education) or first grade (aka spectrum) or second grade (aka HCC). The kids would have to maintain some certain benchmark level, and if they didn't they would be held back a year. I'm betting parents would do a pretty accurate job picking the right level for their kids. If there's a run on the HCC (two-years-accelerated) group, you just have more classrooms doing that.<br /><br />Actually, instead of doing all the CogAT and achievement testing, you could just have any kids who want to "challenge" into HCC skip two grades ahead for a few weeks. Then at the end test them on what they learned. If the kids are keeping up and learning at the end of challenge period, they can officially join the two year accelerated program.<br /><br />And maybe SPS could re-introduce some sort of one year accelerated program. Since there would be a lot more demand for that than the two year accelerated program. <br /><br />But this would get rid of the grass-is-greener mentality. People would have the freedom to try it. It wouldn't be the right fit for most kids. That's what the current system of referral, CogAT, achievement testing is meant to predict. To save everyone the trauma and hassle of trying and finding out it's not a good fit. But the bitterness would be more appropriately directed at the all the real-life factors that make this kind of program not a good fit for most kids instead of scapegoating the program.MLnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-11681986711653055662016-12-19T21:20:52.536-08:002016-12-19T21:20:52.536-08:00Perhaps there should be a racial breakdown of who ...Perhaps there should be a racial breakdown of who owns ugly sweaters and we can start building culturally and ses tolerant curriculum from there? <br /><br />26 percent of surveyed Americans own an ugly Christmas sweater or plan to buy one this year.<br /><br />LolAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-254484673330519612016-12-19T20:17:34.899-08:002016-12-19T20:17:34.899-08:00fwiw to me is soft on facts and hard on dogma. jus...fwiw to me is soft on facts and hard on dogma. just like tolley and like blandford. <br /><br />nc nocapsno capsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-10980433455639157092016-12-19T19:44:14.373-08:002016-12-19T19:44:14.373-08:00@ fwiw, yes, you keep linking to articles on the u...@ fwiw, yes, you keep linking to articles on the use of local norms, but it seems you haven't bothered to read those articles closely. As lynn stated, that Lohman piece suggests the use of local norms wouldnt make sense if you were only offering a one-size-fits-all gifted program, like SPS does. There are many of us who have pushed for a more intensive, tailored program targeted to high potential students from underrepresented groups, and the use of local norms for that would be perfect, but alas, SPS won't do it--too expensive. <br /><br />What did you mean with your comment about Eastdide schools limiting over-represented groups to 1%? The numbers lynn posted don't seem to bear that out. Additionally, are you suggesting they would deny an HC student HC services based on the color of their skin or how much their parent makes or something?<br /><br />HF Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-13446563967860320912016-12-19T18:19:07.014-08:002016-12-19T18:19:07.014-08:00
fwiw, you need to understand that julie b. did t...<br /><br />fwiw, you need to understand that julie b. did try get kids in gen ed at tm into app. that program has ended. i believe it was because after enough attempts to move kids into app there were no successes. i think the best that can happen is be prepared for those kids if they should be identified to make the switch. <br /><br />i do believe that it ended with katie may coming into tm. i know that katie may is running loose with the rules in efforts to solve an optic-only problem with the prior blessing of tolley. to be clear tolley is doing this to divide and conquer. i know that you fwiw find these comments sacrosanct but having been at this for a long time i have only on view on this. <br /><br />thanks lynn, facts-be-damned post are so tedious; having real data points shows that sps is trying but it is hard to overcome homelessness and ell learners which comprise over a quarter of the black students in sps ( i doubt the ses issues are that extreme on the eastside).<br /><br />-ncAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-30445814032434093202016-12-19T16:36:02.804-08:002016-12-19T16:36:02.804-08:00Which Eastside districts are identifying students ...Which Eastside districts are identifying students in the way you'd prefer?<br /><br />Here are the percentages of students in Bellevue (Edmonds) Seattle and (WA State) in each group identified as highly capable in 2015-16.<br /><br />American Indian/Alaskan Native 0% (2%) 1.7% (3%)<br />Asian 20% (9%) 7% (11%)<br />Black/African American .75% (2%) .7% (2%)<br />Hispanic/Latino 1.3% (1%) 2% (2%)<br />Native Hawaiian/Other Pacific Islander 2% (0%) .8% (2%)<br />Two or More Races 8% (5%) 9% (6%)<br />White 4% (4%) 13% (7%)<br /><br />Total identified students in local districts:<br />18% of Mercer Island students<br />11% of Bainbridge<br />10% of Bellevue<br />8% of Seattle<br /><br /><br />Once again, I'll note that the author of the CogAT says identifying the top students in each group makes sense <i>if</i> you're going to create a program that meets students where they are and builds on their success. Our district provides HCC services for two reasons; to meet the requirements of the law and to provide a basic education for advanced students for whom the general education classroom cannot differentiate. Because we have no program to support students with the potential to be highly capable, Lohman would approve of our identification methods.Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-17825686049684889602016-12-19T16:16:10.590-08:002016-12-19T16:16:10.590-08:00Melissa,
Why do you keep blaming principals for l...Melissa,<br /><br />Why do you keep blaming principals for low diversity in HCC?<br /><br />It is ill-informed and wrong.<br /><br />The lack of diversity is the result of not using proper norming<br />to score the test. I have linked the CogAT author numerous times<br />because he is the one who has made this clear. I have also linked<br />gifted sites that state this as basic best practices in identification.<br /><br />Universal testing or blaming principals or any other excuse is<br />ridiculous at this point. <br /><br />Eastside schools do their own version of this by keeping the <br />entry at 1 percent for the demographics that are overrepresented in<br />Seattle.<br /><br />State law and/or a civil rights lawsuit will eventually make SPS<br />stop this blatant injustice.<br /><br />Holding your ears and blaming principals while denying the need<br />for proper norming is simply beyond the pale at this point.<br /><br />FWIWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-70469133609485872292016-12-18T19:10:08.113-08:002016-12-18T19:10:08.113-08:00The original. And thanks for all your work and adv...The original. And thanks for all your work and advocacy.<br /><br />-ncAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-31040474800701667362016-12-18T18:34:00.984-08:002016-12-18T18:34:00.984-08:00NC, are you the original "NC?" If not, ...NC, are you the original "NC?" If not, pick another moniker.<br /><br />Yes, I feel the same about the boundaries for Meany as I do for Cedar Park. There is no reason to create high F/RL schools.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-15102753527531172172016-12-18T18:08:31.667-08:002016-12-18T18:08:31.667-08:00julie tried to scaffold kids into app. i believe k...julie tried to scaffold kids into app. i believe katie may abandon that in favor of solving the optical concerns vs making a true effect to a possibly missed student.<br /><br />redlining is one thing but look at the map next year for meany that is the modern redlining and to what purpose? probably to have bcc prop up wms. That said it may backfire on tolley... If enough cap hill parents say no thanks to high flr school.<br /><br />-nc<br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-71627235247687270902016-12-18T16:48:37.035-08:002016-12-18T16:48:37.035-08:00Silly Turtle, well, good that you know the history...Silly Turtle, well, good that you know the history of redlining but it would have been helpful to acknowledge it in your post. <br /><br />Yes, I understand the issues about why HCC has a large population of white students. It does beg the question as to why principals with large populations of children of color don't work to find those children and get them into programs that would support their learning. It also begs the question as to why Thurgood Marshall - with HCC right there - doesn't have more kids of color in the program. Almost like the principal doesn't want that program to work for those kids.<br /><br />I see your point on obsessing over Cascadia and HCC and hope to address that soon.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-61341329660658825072016-12-18T16:42:51.134-08:002016-12-18T16:42:51.134-08:00Yes, I know of Seattle's history of red-lining...Yes, I know of Seattle's history of red-lining. And that's partly my point. Factors well beyond the control of SPS, or its students or parents, contribute to how many African American kids attend the various SPS schools. But at least one of this blog's commenters is **really** fixated on how many African American kids attend Cascadia. And Cascadia's population is drawn from kids at:<br />Bryant<br />View Ridge<br />Green Lake<br />John Hay<br />Wedgwood<br />B.F. Day<br />Catharine Blaine<br />Loyal Heights<br />Adams<br />Lawton<br />Sand Point<br />Daniel Bagley<br />Whittier<br />North Beach<br />Laurelhurst<br />Olympic View<br />West Woodland<br />John Rogers<br />Frantz Coe<br />Sacajawea<br />Greenwood<br />Broodview Thomson<br />Northgate<br />Viewlands<br />Olympic Hills<br /><br />And the vast majority of those schools have quite low numbers of African American students, the majority of them well, well below the 8% of Seattle's population that's African American. So, yes, red-lining was a thing and its effects live on. As do many other societal factors that influence the lives of African Americans and everyone else in our society. But if you select kids out of schools that are whiter than average, you're going to end up selecting kids that are whiter than average. Right? How can you not?<br /><br />Why isn't PulEAZE more upset that Coe, Schmitz Park, Whittier, Queen Anne, Wedgwood, North Beach, West Woodland, Lawton, View Ridge, Thornton Creek, Green Lake, Catharine Blaine, Loyal Heights, John Stanford Intl., Salmon Bay, Bryant, and McDonald are so white? Why is it just Cascadia that bugs him/her? <br />Silly Turtlenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-35701731195692781502016-12-18T15:37:48.977-08:002016-12-18T15:37:48.977-08:00Forgot to say - the reason we have people who appe...Forgot to say - the reason we have people who appear regularly to comment? Those are called "regular readers" and any good blog has them. Some might even call them fans.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-9197511496851345462016-12-18T15:35:35.164-08:002016-12-18T15:35:35.164-08:00Silly Turtle, you do know that there was red-linin...Silly Turtle, you do know that there was red-lining for generations in Seattle, right? Historical patterns, wrongly, got established so it can't be a huge surprise that schools in some regions are largely white.<br /><br />Woody, I would have left your comment but you resorted to name-calling. Not going to have it.<br /><br />"APP parents howled at the slightest suggestion that their kids ever be retested, or requalified, or in any way held accountable for progress."<br /><br />Not entirely true but thanks for that blanket statement. It's the district that seems to not want to retest leaving it up to teachers and schools to try to counsel parents on their child's progress. <br /><br />TL, interesting comments. I think you get a lot right.<br /><br />There seems to be one person who is just fixated on how this blog runs and if Charlie and I make money. One, we don't have to explain anything so really, go fixate on your own life and work. Two, that said, we don't make money on the blog. We did briefly when we tried Google's monetizing which I found irritating and so we stopped it. (Get that? Stopped making even a small amount of money on the blog.) Three, so paying commenters? Hardly. No money, remember? <br /><br />Moving on.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-3793610491043766422016-12-18T14:35:40.185-08:002016-12-18T14:35:40.185-08:00i think photon that mc troll just scooped up anoth...i think photon that mc troll just scooped up another's moniker. like they did to me earlier. as far as motivation I would guess it is merely manifestations of paranoid delusions. <br /><br />-ncAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-29130940191516078072016-12-18T12:10:02.779-08:002016-12-18T12:10:02.779-08:00What the Hay?
Is TL the Electron Cloud? Did you f...What the Hay?<br /><br />Is TL the Electron Cloud? Did you forget you moniker? Are you an Advocate of HC AND a anti-troll vigilante?<br /><br />Are you some kind of troll yourself?<br /><br />This rabbit hole is getting mighty deep.<br /><br />photonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-49346642862277426522016-12-18T11:53:33.272-08:002016-12-18T11:53:33.272-08:00Lynn, your detailed knowledge of the district make...Lynn, your detailed knowledge of the district makes you an unlikely paid commenter, however I was referring to parents less capable than you who would unscrupulously hire commenters.<br /><br />Like commenters who repeat the same mantra and one name or two downtown that they routinely malign.<br /><br />If, and this pure speculation, Melissa was getting Amazon gift cards from HCC die-hards, it would be for her own advocacy. If she got a nickel per pro self-contained comment, she could but a Prius!<br /><br />Not sayin' she does, but, hey we all gotta hustle these days.<br /><br />TLAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-57704645567367902072016-12-18T11:47:09.663-08:002016-12-18T11:47:09.663-08:00Having seen the results of self-contained vs. blen...Having seen the results of self-contained vs. blended first hand in my own child's experience, I would make the following points.<br /><br />TL is right about staff having trouble understanding both the needs of the students and the very real feelings of parents who would be classified as HC themselves. These parents know first hand how they were treated in school and often it was sub-optimal, to say the least. They may have fears that their kids will face the same obstacles and mistreatment they endured. They truly fear for their kids well being and staff needs to understand that as much as they need to understand the feelings of SpEd parents and ELL parents and FRL parents.<br /><br />Dismissing these parents because they have managed to become successful to some degree and their children are intellectually advantaged is wrong. It is not coddling the privileged to accept their concerns as real and try to address them.<br /><br />Insecurity drives parents to the HCC and teachers and principals can do a better job of dealing with the insecurity simply by showing they are open to improving the experience for gifted kids at neighborhood schools. No parent wants their kid to be seen as different, gifted parents know how unpleasant that feeling can be and would do anything to spare their children.<br /><br />Understanding these emotions and training staff would help all kids. <br /><br />My kid has been in self-contained classrooms and blended ones; I see the advantages and disadvantages of both. She has heard teachers say to her and her AL classmates, "you kids are Spectrum", or "APP" or "highly capable", depending on the timeline, followed by a cutting remark about why they aren't behaving better or doing better quality work.<br /><br />That is wrong and it also drives parents into the cohort where, hopefully, they won't hear that crap as much.<br /><br />I get it. We parents know a lot about pushing teachers' buttons and getting what we want, but we also know about the hate towards people who are different, about the hate towards gifted people. It continues throughout one's life and for many adults the only solace is the company of other "gifted" adults. <br /><br />So it's only natural we'd seek the same "safe space" for our children.<br /><br />herbivore<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-75824837300977724042016-12-18T11:39:41.287-08:002016-12-18T11:39:41.287-08:00Paying commenters makes sense (maybe) on a blog th...Paying commenters makes sense (maybe) on a blog that makes a profit on advertising. The idea that Melissa or Charlie are paying people is ridiculous. Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-33610623508160102262016-12-18T11:22:39.958-08:002016-12-18T11:22:39.958-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com