tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post5771191287543608597..comments2024-03-28T02:21:17.452-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Education DirectorsMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-47967956579169782612010-05-07T22:05:36.801-07:002010-05-07T22:05:36.801-07:00Sure you can have standardized tests without stand...Sure you can have standardized tests without standardized curriculum... but why would you? If the standard is good, and there's an adopted way to get to them, why not do it across the board? When we were kids we had standardized curricula too. All the schools bought the same books. Nobody cried about it. We also have standardized certification for teachers. We don't just let anybody get up and teach.<br /><br />Nothing is perfect. If it were, we wouldn't need standardized tests, GLEs, EALRs, text-books, certified teachers etc. We also wouldn't need diplomas or graduation at all. We'd all just learn at school from somebody good... until we could demonstrably fly on our own. But since we are far from perfect, and there's nobody to monitor quality... we have to settle for some things that are less than perfect. Standardized curriculum beats teachers just teaching whatever they feel is best. I basically oppose high-stakes testing also... but it sort of goes with having standards. You can't really have a tool... like the WASL... and then NOT make it high stakes. If it wasn't high stakes, then nobody would really bother doing it... or doing it to their highest ability. And if nobody bothered with it, then why bother with writing up the GLEs that it measures?Snoophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13620962429311874541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-87582304926114032862010-05-06T21:09:10.674-07:002010-05-06T21:09:10.674-07:00"if you fix the problem of principals moving ..."if you fix the problem of principals moving around, and hold prinicpals accountable for monitoring what teachers are doing, then you don't have to do the "standards-based assessments"<br /><br />How exactly would we be able to tell if the principal was monitoring the teachers? How would we determine how well their students were learning and progressing if we couldn't assess or test those students? How exactly would we or could we hold the principal accountable? What tools could we use?<br /><br />While I don't support high stakes testing, I have no problem at all with standards-based testing...and yes you can have one without the other. Standardized tests have been around for many years (I tooke them over 20 years ago) and they were never problematic until they became high stakes.seattlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01231800476411684686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-70993356855057813102010-05-06T09:28:03.576-07:002010-05-06T09:28:03.576-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.SPS momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07868844486562389924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-13856613800559810302010-05-06T09:27:31.204-07:002010-05-06T09:27:31.204-07:00Snoop, I don't oppose having an expected set o...Snoop, I don't oppose having an expected set of skills and knowledge that we expect educators to try and teach students. I do oppose taking away the flexibility of educators to teach towards these skills and knowledges in ways that reflect THEIR skills and knowledge, their understanding of best practice, and their highly unique group of students.<br /><br />I guess what I was trying to point out before is that if you fix the problem of principals moving around, and hold prinicpals accountable for monitoring what teachers are doing, then you don't have to do the "standards-based assessments" (high stakes for teachers and students alike, I might add) that are monitored by someone sitting in front of a computer screen downtown. If you do NOT fix the problem of principals, then there is no fix for accountability anyway: if principals can't run the schools, then who will? Microsoft Windows?seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-64287452464126671152010-05-06T08:57:48.849-07:002010-05-06T08:57:48.849-07:00Given the huge mobility in the district, of both ...Given the huge mobility in the district, of both students and staff (mostly, principals), wouldn't some continuity be welcome? And if we were to define and measure "quality", wouldn't it be a lot easier to measure given one curriculum instead of just any old thing some teacher wants to do? It just takes one needless variable out of the equation so that the more important things can be in focus.<br /><br />I mean... if we all think GLE's and EALRs are all so wonderful, then why not curriculum. If you oppose standardization, then you should also oppose GLE's. If every teacher is own her own... then why have standards or expectations. Those are equally problematic.Snoophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13620962429311874541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-29172754846016663412010-05-06T08:01:28.745-07:002010-05-06T08:01:28.745-07:00And, Snoop, if principals continue to move every c...And, Snoop, if principals continue to move every couple of years, who would be monitoring this adherence to standardization?<br /><br />Fix existing problems rather than redesign the whole system to try and work around them.<br /><br />This is the main problem with standardization: It sees struggling kids (the "problem") and rather than address their needs it says, "fix the teaching." This is a work-around that leaves the problem to fester, while concurrently debasing and devaluing important aspects of teaching that aren't standardized.seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-34659102325763702642010-05-06T07:57:42.829-07:002010-05-06T07:57:42.829-07:00Snoop, standardization is throwing the baby out wi...Snoop, standardization is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.<br /><br />You write that "We've got so little accountability and the absence of any method of measuring quality... that standardization is probably a good approximation. If the district can't measure 1 parameter of quality... how are they going to measure 50 different flavors? And furthermore, with principals moving every couple years.. standardization seems like the way to go.<br /><br />Sooo...if managers are not, as you claim, measuring "quality" NOW, why would they measure it under some common text, standardized test metric?<br /><br />And, of course, common text and standardized tests does not meet the full range of either student need or teacher "quality"<br /><br />Unless you define quality as the ability to mouth the minute's script and prepare students for The Test.seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-31010885790658686242010-05-06T06:50:40.717-07:002010-05-06T06:50:40.717-07:00Standardization isn't really all that radical....Standardization isn't really all that radical. Bellevue has standard curriculum. Nor does it have to be scripted, or completely lacking in improvisation. The idea that different curriculum reach different populations is also wrong. Is EDM really aimed at a completely different population than Saxon or Singapore? No. You may prefer one over the other, but selecting one isn't really the issue. The notion of "earned autonomy" is realistically impractical, and a waste of money. Not only is central quality assurance evidently impossible.. so is any semblance of principal quality or even continuity. Given those holes in the "local control" plan of operation, standardization would seem a requirement.Snoophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13620962429311874541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-86928460913975510152010-05-05T23:51:56.531-07:002010-05-05T23:51:56.531-07:00Standardization is great for mass produced identic...Standardization is great for mass produced identical objects with interchangable parts, but not so good for human beings.<br /><br />Teaching - and learning - are human endeavors that require creativity, innovation, and improvisation. They don't come scripted and they don't come on a timetable and they don't come in one-size-fits-all.<br /><br />Standardization is the death of teaching and learning - except for those for whom the Standard was designed.<br /><br />And yes, local control does require central quality assurance - which has been missing from Seattle Public Schools.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-63798518331007628342010-05-05T19:44:47.397-07:002010-05-05T19:44:47.397-07:00"Curricular Alignment is hard to confirm. Sta...<i>"Curricular Alignment is hard to confirm. Standardization is easy to confirm. Managers are busy/lazy.</i>"<br /><br />Standardization isn't really a bad thing is it? Surely, since we're splitting hairs, a standardized curriculum is also internally aligned at a minimum, and should be aligned to state standards. If the materials are good, why wouldn't we want the same ones in every school? Seems like a no-brainer. And yes, a standardized curriculum is easier to administer. Why would that be a bad thing either? Ease of administration is a positive. Difference for it's own sake, isn't really something great, is it? Why would we want 50 different schools, using 50 different texts... just because they all possibly <i>could</i> be "aligned to standard". The use of standardized curriculum, by itself, doesn't require that teachers are limited to teaching to the test. NCLB will mean that teachers are doing a lot of teaching to the test... no matter what materials they choose.<br /><br />We now hear "local control best". Really? I don't know that I buy that as an axiom. We've got so little accountability and the absence of any method of measuring quality... that standardization is probably a good approximation. If the district can't measure 1 parameter of quality... how are they going to measure 50 different flavors? And furthermore, with principals moving every couple years.. standardization seems like the way to go.Snoophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13620962429311874541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-6947158541000588892010-05-05T15:58:45.297-07:002010-05-05T15:58:45.297-07:00Central control is good and desirable when local c...Central control is good and desirable when local control is suspect or lacks the resources necessary for the task.<br /><br />In every other case, local control is best.<br /><br />So allow the teacher to do as the teacher sees fit so long as the teacher is up to the job. If not, the principal should provide support or intervene as necessary.<br /><br />Allow the school to do as it sees fit so long as the school is up to the job. If not, the district should provide support or intervene as necessary.<br /><br />Allow the district to do as it sees fit so long as the district is up to the job. If not, the state should provide support or intervene as necessary.<br /><br />Allow the state to do as it sees fit so long as the state is up to the job. If not, the feds should provide support or intervene as necessary.<br /><br />There should be clear, well-defined criteria, metrics, assessments, and benchmarks for each measure of being "up to the job". There should be a clear set of supports/interventions that are provided. There should be clear measures of the improvement expected from the introduction of the interventions/supports.<br /><br />There is no reason that things cannot operate on this professional, open, and transparent basis. I honestly believe that everyone would be better served and happier if things were done this way. Instead, we have vague measures, politically driven decisions, failure to supervise, and inappropriate and unwarranted interventions. It's an organizational nightmare because they lack any set of basic organizational principles. They don't even know if the Education Directors should have their responsibility divided by grade level or by geography.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-30390672429454864082010-05-05T14:24:38.023-07:002010-05-05T14:24:38.023-07:00oops, this should read "State standards? A ne...oops, this should read "State standards? A new thing, so why would PARENTS be up in arms if these "standards" aren't adhered to?seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-86694267847101366272010-05-05T14:22:44.317-07:002010-05-05T14:22:44.317-07:00Jasper raises an interesting point about alignment...Jasper raises an interesting point about alignment. While it is true that there are two "kinds" being discussed, apparently interchangably, Jasper says that parents wouldn't put up with there being NO "standards" such as EALRs or their subset, GLEs....<br />Really? There was no such thing as EALRs until the mid to late 1990s. For a century, parents have gladly sent their children off to school trusting that board, the principal and the teachers had figured out what to teach.<br />This varied across districts, of course - different ethos and beliefs influenced what was taught. It also varied as to how WELL it was taught. But the idea of a standard curriculum (skills and knowledge) across an entire state (and soon across and entire nation) would have seemed absurd. Certainly, districts adopted texts from companies that provided them (First Readers, etc, up through McDougal-Littel American History, etc) but districts decided what should be taught, gave that message to principals, who gave it to teachers.<br />State standards? A new thing, so why would teachers be up in arms if these "standards" aren't adhered to? Is it because they've been convinced to abandon trust in their boards, principals and teachers and instead place it in standardized tests? Have these state tests (standards-based) replaced common sense and flexibility? Have parent and guardians really become convinced that state (and soon federal) standards are the be-all and end-all of education?<br /><br />Because of this possibility, WV has become very subuedseattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-74159693966922342052010-05-05T14:16:27.764-07:002010-05-05T14:16:27.764-07:00Whether parents would like it or not, it would be ...Whether parents would like it or not, it would be irresponsible for the District to allow it (as they have for the past ten years).<br /><br />The District's role in HR, Finance, Transportation and Facilities is clear. The District's role in academics, however, is less cut and dried.<br /><br />I would like to see the District play a Quality Assurance role. The District's duty is to confirm that the schools are doing what they are supposed to be doing (at a minimum) and to take corrective action when the schools fail to fulfill their requirements.<br /><br />In this role, the District would not intervene in successful programs developed by individual schools, but would step in and provide guidance and support at schools that were not proving successful. The District would make that determination through a number of assessments.<br /><br />The District would check to confirm that all students were taught - at a minimum - the GLEs and EALRs, the core content that students are expected to learn. The District should also check to confirm that students working beyond Standards are getting appropriate challenge and that students working below Standards are getting appropriate support. The District should also assume a compliance role with regard to students with IEPs and bilingual education.<br /><br />So long as a school is meeting the expectations by teaching the curriculum, challenging advanced learners, supporting struggling learners, and complying with the law with regard to Special Education and bilingual education, then the District should not poke its nose into the function of that school. That's earned autonomy. The District shouldn't be sending them any "help" that they don't ask for, including mandated materials, mandated instructional strategies, data coaches, or any other camp followers.<br /><br />And the person who is responsible for this school review is the Education Director.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-56484174147380946602010-05-05T13:43:03.933-07:002010-05-05T13:43:03.933-07:00Joan I see where you are going in that the distric...Joan I see where you are going in that the district may very well try to turn curriculum alignment (CA) into Curriculum standardization (CS), and I think your example of the district mandating all schools to use specific texts such as Discovering and Everyday Math, and materials such as Writers Workshop show that this is a path this district is willing to take.<br /><br />But instead of not advocating for CA because we are scared the district will turn it into CS, shouldn't we stand firm and continue to advocate for CA implemented responsibly? Don't we owe that to the students of this district?<br /><br />And what is the alternative if we don't advocate for CA? No district wide or state wide standards? No GLE's or EALR's? Each school and each teacher doing their own thing? Teaching whatever they see fit whenever they want to? I don't think that would go over well with most parents.seattlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01231800476411684686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-68151143315336036482010-05-05T12:42:26.753-07:002010-05-05T12:42:26.753-07:00Chris - I also agree that Charlie's definition...Chris - I also agree that Charlie's definition of C-A is a constructive definition. <br /><br />I fear that when Charlie advocates for the Board pressing the Sup., the Sup pressing the ED's, and the ED's pressing the principals to more quickly implement and then enforce the C-A called for in the strategic plan, he is unknowingly advocating for something different to his benign, constructive definition of C-A.<br /><br />I have kids in two different elementary schools. The staffs of both schools sought a waiver to EDM. One wanted Singapore MAth, one wanted to go back to TERC. The SPM waiver was denied and the teachers are trying to make the best of curriculum they know is poor. <br /><br />The staff at the other school has gotten what strikes me as a "don't ask/don't tell" kind of permission to go back to TERC, which, in my opinion, is even worse than EDM. Judging from the teacher's weekly messages and the homework, it appears to me that her teacher is teaching below standard. <br /><br />This compound experience is a clear example that to me illustrates a) that having, and then enforcing minimum tandards is constructive, and b) the downside of mandated curricula: Sometimes the District errs in its choice.Joan NEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02810050976533673804noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-75945454287903689222010-05-05T11:58:58.087-07:002010-05-05T11:58:58.087-07:00And since this thread is about education directors...And since this thread is about education directors, could someone chime in about what a good one is like? From experience?Chris S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17016898261120819596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-32791066517646674842010-05-05T11:57:55.170-07:002010-05-05T11:57:55.170-07:00Joan, Charlie has posted in the past about the di...Joan, Charlie has posted in the past about the difference between alignment and standardization, and pointed out that district staff either doesn't understand teh distinction, or intentionally obfuscates the distinction.<br /><br />I agree with Charlie that CA by his definition is not bad, but I agree with you that it's unlikely that CA by Charlie's definition is a goal of this administration. So while CA may not be bad, the "CA" being spewed by this district should be regarded with strong suspicion.<br /><br />And, I don't know much about this, but I have seen the statement "SPS has 6 period days" generate some debate. Like maybe not all schools have 6-credit-earning-period days? Didn't WSea High try to implement a true 6 period day?Chris S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17016898261120819596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-38986264374357993412010-05-05T11:34:53.940-07:002010-05-05T11:34:53.940-07:00I am not able to check this blog again until tomor...I am not able to check this blog again until tomorrow,...so please understand if any Q's and comments directed toward me go unanswered for some 24 hours..Joan NEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02810050976533673804noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-5998519357670500332010-05-05T11:30:45.756-07:002010-05-05T11:30:45.756-07:00Charlie, I think you did a good job answering the ...Charlie, I think you did a good job answering the question about Core24. There is more that can be said against Core24, but I save this - and the Q @ extended day - for a separate posting.<br /><br />I want to focus on the question of what the District means when they talk about C-A (curriculum alignment) as a priority. <br /><br />Look at the math curriculum situation. Charlie, do you feel that the C-A that we are experiencing in Math is in the best interests of children? To disallow schools to use a superior curriculum instead of the District's Aligned Curriculum in Math does harm to children. To disallow remedial math in high school is a disservice to children who come to 9th grade ill-prepared for algebra.<br /><br />The District has erred in math, and won't admit it. Why should we trust the district to make wise choices in other curriculum?<br /><br />This is my sense of what Curriculum Alignment means: <br /><br />--District mandated course textbooks/materials/literature selections/etc.; [Note 1]<br /><br />---Core24 [Note 2]<br /><br />--Course credit conditioned on scores on District assessments in every core curriculum course [Note 3]<br /><br />--using principals and instructional coaches/mentors to moniter teachers for fidelity to course pacing guides<br /><br />--a variety of forms of pressure on teachers to coerce them to "teach- to-the-[state and district standardized] test"<br /><br />--curriculum that emphasizes memorization over critical thinking skills<br /><br />--diminished quality of honors courses, advanced placement courses, and the highly-gifted self-contained programs.<br /><br />--artificial means for "closing the achievement gap", such as focusing on "bubble-kids" and "bringing down the top"<br /><br />--heavy emphasis on school and district "score cards" in which parents are encouraged to view their children's success, and teacher and school quality through the lens of individual and aggregate standardized test score growth.<br /><br />Does not my description of C-A match up with what people are seeing in the priorities being expressed in numerous ways by District Leadership?<br /><br />Note 1: Remember the literature alignment that the District tried to force onto NOVA, one of Seattle's best high schools? Thank goodness the District backed down on that. To force NOVA to conform to Literature Alignment is to breaking what is working.<br /><br />Note 2. The State's Achievement Gap Committee is opposed to Core24, and their reasoning makes emminent sense. For many students, it is electives that make kids want to go to school everday...take those away, and we can expect higher drop out rates. Core24 means many popular and building-unique courses are being eliminated - most probably the Marine Biology course(s) at Garfield high schools will not longer be allowed as satisfying a graduation science credit requirement, and probably it is going to be eliminated from the 2010-11 Garfield HS course catalogue.<br /><br />Note 3: I heard the Chief Academic Officer announce at a C-A community engagement meeting last December, that this is the District's intent.Joan NEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02810050976533673804noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-68159934607580398872010-05-05T10:12:11.002-07:002010-05-05T10:12:11.002-07:00CORE24 is supposed to come with all kinds of suppo...CORE24 is supposed to come with all kinds of supports - including the opportunity for an extended day, credit for classes taken in middle school, credit for alternative courses of study, and support for struggling students. If things run as they usually do, we will see the mandates, but not the supports or funding.<br /><br />CORE24 is also supposed to have versions that lead to university, to community college, and to career, but they are really all geared to university admission. This is intentional and acknowledged.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-85027576770907711202010-05-05T10:09:18.921-07:002010-05-05T10:09:18.921-07:00I am not advocating for Core 24 at all. In fact I ...I am not advocating for Core 24 at all. In fact I don't see any reason to mandate it when currently any student can self select a Core24 schedule on their own. <br /><br />But I do like to keep the facts straight.<br /><br />Core24 does not require a 7 period day as was posted earlier in this thread.<br /><br />In addition it was posted that Core24 leaves no room in a students schedule for electives and the arts, when in fact it increases the current SPS arts requirement from 2 years to 3 years.<br /><br />It is true that meeting Core24 requirements leaves no room for failed classes to be made up. A student would have to make up a failed class in summer school. <br /><br />And I 100% agree that a mandated Core24 would be a huge obstacle for many struggling and even mediocre students and as a result would cause a higher drop out rate.seattlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01231800476411684686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-32212419568243027482010-05-05T09:58:07.284-07:002010-05-05T09:58:07.284-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.seattlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01231800476411684686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-8468694327684815762010-05-05T09:50:54.507-07:002010-05-05T09:50:54.507-07:00I think most people don't know what Ed Directo...I think most people don't know what Ed Directors do so what this change means is a mystery. I suspect that most of these same people will be rehired.<br /><br />On one side, having them know all the schools in one region might be helpful. On the other side, having a middle school director would make asking for resources a more fair proposition than you might see with regional directors.<br /><br />I think I would need to see the newly revised job description before I say much. I do agree with much of what Charlie said. There needs to be someone watching over principals and their duties and holding them accountable and reporting back to the CAO.<br /><br />I know from some interaction with principals that they sometimes love their Ed Director and others feel ignored.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-3615140102108551922010-05-05T09:34:52.098-07:002010-05-05T09:34:52.098-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.seattlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01231800476411684686noreply@blogger.com