tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post6400726803012896730..comments2024-03-28T02:21:17.452-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Open Thread FridayMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger82125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-85683029936516498492011-09-15T01:34:30.809-07:002011-09-15T01:34:30.809-07:00Boy, seattle citizen -- I don't know where to ...Boy, seattle citizen -- I don't know where to start -- partly because I don't really have great answers for the "really big" questions -- as you have framed them, and partly because they ARE really big. <br /><br />As I currently see it (and I think I see very dimly here -- so I won't be offended if you all tell me I have this all wrong), I would like to see the Federal government involved ONLY as it pertains to really big, over arching things - the civil rights stuff -- like no, you can't just kick all the SPED kids out, or put them in the closet with construction paper and dull scissors; and no, separate but equal won't work. I think NCLB has been an expensive disaster that should be killed, as are the national common standards. I think that funding of education should be left to local/state governments -- and that all this federal grant money sloshing around -- with huge tiebacks into for-profit charter companies, big ed publishing companies, ed reform testing companies -- well, it should all stop. We can't afford it even if it were working. And not only is it NOT working -- it is actually making the "product" -- the learning -- worse. <br /><br />This permits states and local communities to continue to experiment and evolve educational practice -- so you can have states like Massachusetts who seem to be getting a great deal more for their dollars than some other states -- and states like Washington. Yes, big foundations and businesses who want to buy education can still interfere at the state and local level, but I think they do their worst (to them best) work at the national level, where lobbying dollars go the farthest. <br /><br />THEN, within THIS state, I think we need to get all of the stakeholders (teachers, kids, parents, employers, universities) together and start drilling down on how we can get the best possible outcomes in really lean times. The COE should be part of this, and so should the science/math/applied math/engineering departments of colleges. What can we put online? What already IS online? How can we cost effectively deliver targeted interventions? What about kids who want to be machinists? What about kids who want alternative education? <br /><br />This isn't an answer for everything. But Obama and Arne Duncan just shouldn't be involved in this. This is building by building, kid by kid, school by school work. Even at the state level it is unwieldy (though state standards, levy equalization, funding, etc. -- to say nothing of the Washington constitution -- indicate that the state should have a role).Janhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09923777229601243321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-3438197323950895482011-09-13T21:35:31.470-07:002011-09-13T21:35:31.470-07:00Speaking of what is going on with dumbing down in ...Speaking of what is going on with dumbing down in our schools ... try this piece from Barry Simon, the chairman of the mathematics department at Caltech.<br /><br />February 6, 1998 : Los Angeles Times<br /><br /><a href="http://www.math.caltech.edu/people/oped.html" rel="nofollow">A Plea in Defense of Euclidean Geometry</a><br /><br />--- <i>... But I am concerned about the country as a whole. <b>The dumbing down of high school education in the United States, especially in mathematics and science, is a crime that must be laid at the doorstep of the educational establishment. </b>We must demand that the level of high school science and mathematics being taught be improved, starting, of course, with Euclidean geometry.</i><br /><br />=====<br />Meanwhile we pay folks like Maria Goodloe-Johnson, Carla Santorno and Susan Enfield to do this to our kids.dan dempseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15536720661510933983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-42002416136836230472011-09-13T18:46:49.441-07:002011-09-13T18:46:49.441-07:00Jan,
I agree that we citizens can vote in board di...Jan,<br />I agree that we citizens can vote in board directors who work towards the goal of positive classrooms and schools.<br /><br />But Solvay is, unfortunately, speaking perhaps of the higher levels of financing and policy - fed and state governments, Dept of Ed etc. I, too, wonder how we craft and enact a national support of, say smaller class sizes in the current environment of constriction, free markets, and a general disdain for educators and public schools.<br />The disdain we might be able to change, but in some ways it's dependent on money, and lots of it. Contrary to popular opinion, we really haven't been "throwing money at schools to solve problems" all these years - We've been improving delivery in many ways, not the least of which are the many attempts (some actually successful, how 'bout that?) to be more inclusive in our schools, and to offer more to more students. Special Ed, technology, ELL, AP (or other higher level offerings)...The "diversity" mentioned elsewhere on the blog is a real goal of many educators, and has been a goal of policy and funding for decades. These things cost money.<br /><br />Now, it seems, the spigot is running dry, for a variety of reasons. My feeling is that class sizes WILL increase, offerings WILL be constricted, because labor is expensive.<br /><br />I don't know how we change this. It would take a lot of money, and do it equitably presents its own problems. Can we create a will in the nation to divert more money to education? Can we create more support for the job that public schools do?<br />I'm not optimistic in the short term. I don't know how it could be done as the dollars we are talking about are big, and the nation is pulling the plug left and right on its public services.<br /><br />WV sees it as fulityr than futility.seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-28614967633021942462011-09-13T18:31:37.385-07:002011-09-13T18:31:37.385-07:00Jan says: ...ed reform is NOT all about the kids;...Jan says: <i>...ed reform is NOT all about the kids; that it represents a massive transfer of wealth from kids and classrooms to the pockets and boardrooms of Big Ed...</i><br /><br />I fought this concept to some extent for a long time (resisting the 'tin foil hat' implications.) But I have never seen a clear rebuttal of this view. I know there are "Reformers" lurking out there -- Can you make an argument that makes me dial down my paranoia?Maureenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18444916440000921599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-15946249608723449992011-09-13T03:06:43.989-07:002011-09-13T03:06:43.989-07:00SolvayGirl -- I hear you, and I agree. And my kid...SolvayGirl -- I hear you, and I agree. And my kids used a "blend" of public and private schools. <br /><br />But here is the thing. In the end, in a democracy, it is ballots that count. Gates, et al have only succeeded with this Board because they bought (not through corruption, mind you, but by financing their campaigns -- and spin) four board members long before people in Seattle had ed reform in their sights. It doesn't HAVE to be that way -- espeically not in an internet/facebook/twitter age. Yes, there is lots of falsehood and fiction in cyberspace, but it is also possible to contact a LOT of people, for far less money than it used to cost. Money wins if and when it can buy the ballots. (THAT was the real travesty of last year's Supreme Court decision allowing unlimited corporate money into politics). If we can't control money, then we need to turn to information -- who controls it. <br /><br />In the end, if we can get people in Seattle to change the Board, we can start to change the schools. <br /><br />Here is where folks like Charlie, Melissa, Sahila, suep, and many many others begin to matter -- we need to reach LOTS of people with the news (now dawning on a national basis, not just here) that ed reform is NOT all about the kids; that it represents a massive transfer of wealth from kids and classrooms to the pockets and boardrooms of Big Ed; and a massive degradation of classical liberal education -- in a manner that is NOT being followed by our "competition" in India, China, Malaysia, Indonesia, Finland, etc.<br /><br />We can do this -- but the time to pour on the effort is now -- this fall -- this election.Janhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09923777229601243321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-69584923592983677232011-09-12T22:25:25.467-07:002011-09-12T22:25:25.467-07:00Seattle Citizen said I'm sorry to say it, beca...Seattle Citizen said <i>I'm sorry to say it, because I suspect you ask because you are thinking "private?" but it is what it is unless citizens demand more from their public schools and demand funding to provide the level of attention parents and guardians might expect.</i><br /><br />I find your posts to be very insightful and though-provoking...but how, exactly, do we demand these things? I write my legislators, I write the school board. I voted to create a state income tax on upper-end earners. I did not vote to repeal the bottle tax. I have dealt with the District to try and remove an ineffective principal. I invested hundreds of volunteer hours to help improve my child's public school.<br /><br />I finally gave up and we went "private" for middle and now high school. The small class sizes and more individualized attention are the major draw—along with a more broad curriculum and in-depth teaching.<br /><br />I still support public education, and still "demand" that my legislators do something to improve public schools. But I, like most people in America, have little power compared to big money. When the powers that be demonize teachers for wanting smaller class sizes, etc., many people start to believe that schools have more than enough money. I honestly don't know what we can do to make the real changes needed.<br /><br />SolvayGirlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-80184562924570820582011-09-12T18:25:46.344-07:002011-09-12T18:25:46.344-07:00PS parent, my comment above was addressed to you, ...PS parent, my comment above was addressed to you, as you can tell, and I'd add that I do not see class sizes getting smaller anytime soon: Rather, do to "economies of scale" I see class sizes growing very large, lessons packaged and systematized (losing much of the depth and nuance in the process) and the whole public education machine being reformatted into a drab shadow of its former and current glory. With diminishing investment, it will all be streamlined and lose its ability to meet a variety of needs with a variety of useful (but un-state-tested) subjects. Teachers will be timed, answers will be rote, students will be turned into dullards.<br /><br />I'm sorry to say it, because I suspect you ask because you are thinking "private?" but it is what it is unless citizens demand more from their public schools and demand funding to provide the level of attention parents and guardians might expect.seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-51482401978631704742011-09-12T18:19:21.238-07:002011-09-12T18:19:21.238-07:00If I could make an educated guess about HS class s...If I could make an educated guess about HS class size around Seattle over the last couple of decades I would say that a "typical" HS Language Arts class has had about 27-28 students, maybe 30.<br /><br />40 students in an LA class is gi-normous.<br /><br />40 in ANY class is too many. Langauge Arts is used here to illustrate the impact - if a teacher with five classes of 30 assigned one five page paper, that teacher will be looking at 750 pages of material when the assignment is handed in by all students. At, say, one minute per page, that is 750 minutes of review of that one assigment, or 12.5 hours. If there are 40 students, the time spent reviewing that assignment would be almost 17 hours. So what naturally happens? More students = fewer essays and/or less time in review of those essays. You get what you pay for, and few teachers will be willing to just work themselves to death grading papers, so the amount of work and the quality of review will suffer.seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-1076761052109076562011-09-12T07:24:24.534-07:002011-09-12T07:24:24.534-07:00Is 40+ class size normal for HS? What about langu...Is 40+ class size normal for HS? What about languages and AP classes? We are trying to do some HW now re: HS options. 40+ seems a bit high. What is the normal HS class size range you usually see in the northend? Finally, for those of you with insight or foresight, will these large class sizes continue in the next few years?<br /><br />Thanks,<br />PS parentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-28782044561601364062011-09-11T18:59:20.172-07:002011-09-11T18:59:20.172-07:00klh,
We do not have substitutes to break up large...klh,<br /><br />We do not have substitutes to break up large class sizes at Ingraham. <br /><br />I expect that we'll hear in a few days whether we're getting any more teachers. <br /><br />DWEAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-57540099612804088222011-09-11T16:07:37.902-07:002011-09-11T16:07:37.902-07:00If I could do a request for a topic for a new thre...If I could do a request for a topic for a new thread, it may just be a rat's nest, but I would like to see us talk a little bit about what diversity in schools means. <br /><br />What counts as diversity? Income disparities, the blending of poor, middle class, and rich? Homosexual or heterosexual parents at home? First generation immigrants (even if white immigrants from Europe or Russia) and non-English languages spoken at home? If race only, does Asian or Indian count as diversity? East African or north African immigrants? Or are we talking specifically and only about African Americans and whites when we say diversity?RootCausenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-69668891557609993822011-09-11T12:35:55.126-07:002011-09-11T12:35:55.126-07:00Are there plans to hire more teachers to bring dow...Are there plans to hire more teachers to bring down the class sizes in those 40+ student classes at Ingraham? I remember talk about having substitutes ready, etc., but is it happening? Not a good situation for the students or the teachers!klhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10896882443894592502noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-53128027984911407112011-09-11T10:40:52.143-07:002011-09-11T10:40:52.143-07:00Was it stated that there's a TFA position at S...Was it stated that there's a TFA position at SPS now? And how much money goes to the MAP test? How many PR people are employed downtown? This is the stuff that the district has control over. If some of these positions are grant-funded, then maybe those in charge should start seeking grants that benefit the basic needs of students in the classroom, rather than futhering the ideologies of the superintendent and her "group of private citizens."<br /><br />--courage to change the things you canAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-72474474710261076872011-09-11T10:20:08.411-07:002011-09-11T10:20:08.411-07:00I see what you mean about Donors Choose zb - it...I see what you mean about Donors Choose zb - it's lovely that such a place exists, but a sad commentary on our society that it needs to - that we don't adequately fund the most important resource on the planet - kids.<br /><br />Lately, everytime I read a headline about some sports star getting millions of dollars to toss/kick/hit a ball around, I could weep - why can't we see we are valuing the wrong skills - well at the very least, overvaluing.someonenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-50618110255581506782011-09-11T09:58:28.479-07:002011-09-11T09:58:28.479-07:00"Too bad the billionaires can't find a wa..."Too bad the billionaires can't find a way to make a profit on it, so she turns to DonorsChoose."<br /><br />I do have to point out that the Billionaires are pretty big supporters of DonorsChoose. <br /><br />I love Donors Choose, but I do think that we have to legitimately worry that it's replacing a basic support of education with a requirement that teachers beg for their classrooms. <br /><br />Honestly, I just read through the Leschi list at DonorsChoose and it made me cry. Teachers are asking for writing journals, markers, bookshelves and desks. <br /><br />I can't stand it. I've felt comfortable using Donors Choose to buy trumpets for a school, but a desk? What next? Is a teacher going to have to beg for an electric heater for her classroom because the kids are freezing? <br /><br />I feel a bit despairing. <br /><br />(zb)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-71925632879019396062011-09-11T09:38:29.592-07:002011-09-11T09:38:29.592-07:00Rufus, thanks for the update and the advice. Very...Rufus, thanks for the update and the advice. Very helpful.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-33052642814096890212011-09-11T09:18:06.730-07:002011-09-11T09:18:06.730-07:00Related to Rufux X...
Thank you to the folks in E...Related to Rufux X...<br /><br />Thank you to the folks in Enrollment working on the waiting lists this year.<br /><br />The siblings are moving off the wait lists much earlier this year than last (at least in the NE.) It was a long summer of waiting for many families - but very appreciate that it will not be a long September as well.<br /><br />Thank you.StepJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11375599834945035820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-36580538641683626782011-09-11T09:14:12.861-07:002011-09-11T09:14:12.861-07:00Rufus X,
So happy for your Things and your family...Rufus X,<br /><br />So happy for your Things and your family. Hooray!!StepJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11375599834945035820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-31672344510663446242011-09-11T00:00:41.661-07:002011-09-11T00:00:41.661-07:00Now here's a teacher using her noggin. Too ba...Now here's a teacher using her noggin. Too bad the billionaires can't find a way to make a profit on it, so she turns to DonorsChoose.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.centraldistrictnews.com/2011/09/08/leschi-elementary-teachers-take-to-donorschooseorg-to-fund-classroom-needs" rel="nofollow">Story on Central District News</a>mirmac1https://www.blogger.com/profile/10183460709639638172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-34003866023183774132011-09-10T20:39:57.056-07:002011-09-10T20:39:57.056-07:00DWE,
All the better to hire a lot of TfAers at In...DWE,<br /><br />All the better to hire a lot of TfAers at Ingraham.<br /><br />Entirely predictable.<br /><br />Stack 'em deep and teach 'em cheap.<br /><br /><i>Class size does not matter.</i> -- MGJdan dempseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15536720661510933983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-59858045785175193152011-09-10T19:05:57.576-07:002011-09-10T19:05:57.576-07:00Sorry, I forgot to add that our largest class size...Sorry, I forgot to add that our largest class size at Ingraham is 47. More furniture has been ordered so that students don't have to sit on the floor.<br /><br />DWEAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-91008227470944805662011-09-10T18:56:05.082-07:002011-09-10T18:56:05.082-07:00Dear peonypower, my distinguished colleague,
By m...Dear peonypower, my distinguished colleague,<br /><br />By my last count, we currently have 10 teachers with at least one class over 40 at Ingraham. <br /><br />We have one teacher with 163 students, one with 168, one with 171, one with 178, and one with 182.<br /><br />I'm sorry to say that we're overcrowded at Ingraham, and it was all entirely predictable.<br /><br />DWEAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-59424807198451096672011-09-10T17:58:33.868-07:002011-09-10T17:58:33.868-07:00RufusX -- that is really great news (and kudos to ...RufusX -- that is really great news (and kudos to the folks at District who are working so hard this week on enrollment issues). Any chance your family videotaped the happy dance and is willing to post it so we can all enjoy? :>)Janhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09923777229601243321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-70058394118108044342011-09-10T14:36:20.357-07:002011-09-10T14:36:20.357-07:00Ah, and who sponsors NBC’s Education Nation? Unive...Ah, and who sponsors NBC’s Education Nation? University of Phoenix, State Farm, Microsoft, the Gates Foundation, the Bezos Family Foundation, the W.K. Kellogg Foundation, the Broad Foundation, Scholastic, and America’s Promise Alliance. So students can get their on-line degree (Phoenix) via technology designed by an edu-tech company (Microsoft), marketed by an edu-tech business (Scholastic), supported by free-market profiteers (Broad, Gates Foundations) using the “achievement gap” as measured by technology to sell the concept to minorities (America’s Promise.)All broadcast in primetime by our friends at NBC.<br />Great!seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-27061763894909118402011-09-10T14:25:25.292-07:002011-09-10T14:25:25.292-07:00September 25th is NBC's "Education Nation...September 25th is NBC's "Education Nation Teacher Town Hall, whatever that is. Perhaps Gates bought some commercial time? I saw this as part of an announcement over on LEV's blog:<br /><br />"A new project will be making its debut on September 25th at NBC’s Education Nation Teacher Town Hall. A shared venture by Scholastic, Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, and DonorsChoose.org dubbed “Teacher Wall” will be a new spin on social networking focused on educators. The new site, which is currently on a mission to collect video clips from 1,000 teachers, will enable users to connect with one another through stories, successes, and everything education.<br /> If you are an educator, and would like to submit to a video and be a part of this new project, you can find more information at the Teacher Wall website."<br /><br />Word Verifier is worried that most things Gates are DETRO, but who knows...seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.com