tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post663421411058146210..comments2024-03-29T02:41:52.718-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Wednesday Work Session On Integrated Planning (Carry-over from Tuesday's)Melissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-49348456535127681482010-12-07T09:28:28.075-08:002010-12-07T09:28:28.075-08:00Another question, to which we are very unlikely to...Another question, to which we are very unlikely to get an answer, given how poorly the district tracks APP-qualified students who aren't enrolled in APP, is how much of the growth in APP <em>enrollment</em> is due to more students being identified, and how much is due to more students <em>accepting APP placement</em>. <br /><br />Helen Schinskehschinskehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10316478950862562594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-8630616314545750172010-12-07T08:50:55.270-08:002010-12-07T08:50:55.270-08:00So this discussion is to try to tease out the answ...So this discussion is to try to tease out the answer to the question: is APP growing? Perhaps also why it is growing, but mostly is it growing. I think that is important to know for the long term if one wants to plan ahead for pathways and high school issues. <br /><br />Certainly overall enrollment in the district is growing, so one would expect APP to grow as well. But my analysis shows that it is growing faster than SPS enrollment, as broken down by elementary, middle and high school. I think there are good reasons to suspect that the recent growth is due to the splits and the NSAP. <br /><br />Yes, there is less satisfaction with Spectrum, but there has never been a lot of satisfaction with Spectrum. The level of perceived quality in Spectrum does not seem to have changed since I have been around. <br /><br />There were significant changes to eligibility protocol, especially when the WASL replaced the ITBS. I believe that that is a significant source of the growth as well, but I do not know for sure. Thus, the attempt to suss out better data for 2000-2005.<br /><br />So that link with 2004-05 data, looking at all six regional reports, gives a combined elementary school population of 24,409 if I did the arithmetic correctly. Now the data I used to show the percent of elementary enrollment that are in APP used only grades 1-5 data, available <a href="http://www.seattleschools.org/area/board/10-11agendas/100610agenda/enrollmentpresentation.pdf" rel="nofollow">here</a>. So for this year, that is 19653. Add in the kindergarten figure of 4454 gives 24107, which is 302 fewer students. So, has elementary enrollment gone down since 2004 or are the numbers not trustworthy?<br /><br />Overall, what's going to happen with GHS and APP and other solutions? APP can argue that it isn't the problem right now and they would be correct. But something is the problem. One cannot have a neighborhood assignment plan and have the boundary for a high school be as small as the distance tie breaker that was in effect 2009-10. <br /><br />Where do all those out of area kids live and how did they get enrolled given the historic distance tie breaker? Would cutting the sibling preference and cutting option seats do enough to restore sanity? For the short term or for the long run?Dorothy Nevillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17108759281089768738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-34563153500210459582010-12-07T07:31:04.991-08:002010-12-07T07:31:04.991-08:00I think part of the growth of APP is due to the fa...I think part of the growth of APP is due to the fact that it is the <b>only</b> advanced learning option that guarantees a child a seat. Spectrum is variable at best, and waitlisted in many schools. ALO is a whole 'nother story.<br /><br />So, if I were a parent of a Spectrum child that is shut out of my local program (or my local program is weak) I would push like crazy to get my child into APP where I'm guaranteed an advanced learning program.<br /><br />My guess is there is a correlation between the large growth in the north end and the lack of Spectrum seats that can be attributed to at least part of the growth of APP. Just guessing though.lendleeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12555109557702727406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-11957071974565634702010-12-07T03:21:03.591-08:002010-12-07T03:21:03.591-08:00Dorothy,
I am neither an enrollment expert nor an...Dorothy,<br /><br />I am neither an enrollment expert nor an analyst, so I don't have comprehensive enrollment data. However, those reports have enrollment data for each of the old clusters. It was written during the 04-05 school year and it analyzes the enrollment time for the 5 years prior to that, which is the time you are questioning. <br /><br />Someone who is actually an analyst can likely use that info to answer your question but not me. The only thing I really know is that I referenced this report about a million times when just one year later, Sacajawea was recommended for closure. I could not understand how the district went from "we need over 1,000 new seats in the NE" so we are going to repurpose Summit and add a whole lot of portables to any school that can take them to "we can close Sac in just six months." This was my first but certainly not my last experience of district manipulated data. <br /><br />I also find this report fascinating because so many of the solutions presented were ultimately pushed through.north seattle momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16398949285827606629noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-36234818678999592272010-12-06T23:03:32.756-08:002010-12-06T23:03:32.756-08:00North Seattle Mom, that link does not show what I...North Seattle Mom, that link does not show what I am looking for. What was the overall city wide enrollment for elementary school in 2000 to 2005? In order to assess whether or not APP grew significantly with respect to the overall enrollment, one needs that data, not just reports on how the NE started getting more crowded around then. <br /><br />As I said, in those five years, elementary APP grew 33%. Did the entire elementary school population grow at a similar rate in those years? I haven't been able to find that information. <br /><br />The information I provided on a previous comment shows that app is growing with respect to overall enrollment in the past few years. This is probably attributable to the splits and the NSAP, not changes in eligibility protocol. But the eligibility protocol did change a lot during that time. And now the ALO report card guarantees continued eligibility for elementary school kids to get into APP in middle school, at the same time the the district is moving toward requiring every elementary to have ALO. So no, I do not think that APP will grow without bounds, but I do not think we have enough data to suggest where it will stabilize.Dorothy Nevillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17108759281089768738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-33973934119122209112010-12-06T22:40:33.409-08:002010-12-06T22:40:33.409-08:00Lori - It is a popular mis-conception that the gr...Lori - It is a popular mis-conception that the growth is now in the third grade. That cohort was the year that everyone ran out of space and things went from bad to worse. <br /><br />Dorothy - The growth in the NE started around 2000. Take at look at this link from the very first closure round. The <br /><br />http://www.seattleschools.org/area/<br />spsplan/geo_overview_ne.xml<br /><br />It says:<br />There are eight neighborhood schools in the Northeast region (Bryant, Laurelhurst, Olympic Hills, Olympic View, John Rogers, Sacajawea, View Ridge, and Wedgwood) as well as one regional alternative school (AE II at Decatur) that provide a total of 3,190 seats for kindergarten through fifth grade students. AS #1 at Pinehurst and Summit K-12 at Jane Addams are also located in this region, but are not included in these capacity numbers, as these are all-city draw programs. Currently 3,662 of the elementary students attending Seattle Public Schools reside in this region. The number of resident elementary students attending Seattle Public Schools is projected to increase to 4,336 by 2014.<br /><br />Currently there are 472 elementary seats needed; by 2014 we anticipate needing 1,176 elementary seats. Therefore we recommend not closing any buildings and increasing elementary capacity by adding portables to several sites.north seattle momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16398949285827606629noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-76760932368585704692010-12-06T22:21:07.545-08:002010-12-06T22:21:07.545-08:00"popular, yes, but overcrowding started with ..."popular, yes, but overcrowding started with the 2007/2008 "<br /><br />Yes. I do not know overall district enrollment broken down by elementary, middle and high schools for previous to 2008-9 school year. <br /><br />From 2000-2005, elementary APP grew 33%, from 366 kids in 14 classrooms to 485 kids in 19 classrooms. One of the new classrooms was a converted closet with a max size of 18 students. Other than that class, the average class size went up. During this time was the shift from ITBS to WASL, from a norm-referenced test to a criterion-referenced test. There were changes to CoGat thresholds as well. <br /><br />This was before the surge in overall enrollment, as far as I can tell. Certainly by 2005 we hadn't had 33% growth in elementary city wide, did we?Dorothy Nevillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17108759281089768738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-57708590211615717632010-12-06T21:49:46.575-08:002010-12-06T21:49:46.575-08:00popular, yes, but overcrowding started with the 20...popular, yes, but overcrowding started with the 2007/2008 school year when a few NE schools had to add K classes to meet demand. The demand continued in 2008/2009, more K classes were added in the cluster, and so on. <br /><br />It is today's 3rd grade classes that are larger than usual and will hit Eckstein in the near future. And the cohorts coming up behind them are actually larger.Lorihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07777580098975083499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-30930332635522596372010-12-06T21:40:19.571-08:002010-12-06T21:40:19.571-08:00The big increase in NE elementary schools started ...<i>The big increase in NE elementary schools started when? Around 2005?</i><br /><br />It was 2000 ( I am pretty sure) that Olchefske approached Summit K-12 with a request- to add a 6th grade section ( approx 30 seats) for a few years to entice students that didn't get into Eckstein.<br />Which they did- but the families that want Eckstein- were not likely to stay at Summit for high school, especially since support wasn't forthcoming from district to incorporate their interests into the Summit community ( and since the media was sympathetic to families who wanted the district to "reopen" the Jane Addams building, they remained hopeful.<br /><br />Elementaries in the NE have been pretty popular for a while.Jet City momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14804841958585043967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-34489400031036629342010-12-06T20:33:41.267-08:002010-12-06T20:33:41.267-08:00Langston Hughes is in the Central Disrict, not sou...<i>Langston Hughes is in the Central Disrict, not south Seattle - it's really close to Garfield. </i> <br />I apologize I didn't get anysleep last night- I was thinking it was at RB- but that is the Paul Robeson performing arts center of course.<br /><br />Anyway- bike suggestion- was just cause when I was looking it up on Google it gave that option- although when my daughter worked at Carkeek park she rode her bike from Fremont- however that was summer.<br />I was just using it to contrast with how long the bus took.<br />I didn't mean for anyone to take it seriously-our roads are not set up safely on many routes through the city for bikes.<br /><br /><br />Looking at the districts & at census data for neighborhoods- where growth in 5-18yrolds is occurring & is projected to occur is in the northend- especially in Northeast region. <br />However as that growth could be absorbed into Shoreline/private schools, is there anything we could/should be doing to retain it?<br /><br /> ( although there was a time when the district considered Queen Anne the " south end". That was how they labeled it when Lincoln & Queen Anne high schools were closed- one in the " north" & one in the 'south")Jet City momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14804841958585043967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-43997468126600922562010-12-06T20:25:28.758-08:002010-12-06T20:25:28.758-08:00"4. Change in the admissions protocols (eithe..."4. Change in the admissions protocols (either the testing requirements, the admissions percentage floor, or the evaluation/recommendation procedures for access to the program);"<br /><br />Over the past 10 years there have been quite a few changes to the admission protocols. <br /><br />From 2000 to 2005, Lowell APP went from 14 classrooms to 19 classrooms and average class size went up. I do not recall any such overcrowding happening in other elementary schools at the time. The big increase in NE elementary schools started when? Around 2005?Dorothy Nevillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17108759281089768738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-27564104330350997232010-12-06T19:36:19.733-08:002010-12-06T19:36:19.733-08:00RE: AS#1 reduction. I believe 2006 also was the ye...RE: AS#1 reduction. I believe 2006 also was the year the long time principal Ron retired and the school started to splinter internally. The district (mainly thru ruth medsker) began manipulating the brand new principal and many long time teachers and families left because the school leader had no will to maintain some of the program's vital components -active site based management w/ student, parent, and teacher participation, broad multi-age classes taught by teachers, parents, and community members. <br /><br />The school also heavily drew from south Seattle where parents were happy to have a north end choice with bussing. Lots of AS#1's suppot and word of mouth reputation was in communities south oof the ship canal. The all city draw was great for mobile or split families who lived in different parts of the city. <br /><br />The district killed the old AS#1 when they ended its all city transportation and assigned a new principal w/o community input and replaced half the staff and students. The district owes it to the familes who have chosen the school to restructure itself as a renewed alternative learning community focused on creating a truly equitable learning community.backgroundnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-14015245189440247912010-12-06T19:03:41.414-08:002010-12-06T19:03:41.414-08:00Since APP (unlike Spectrum) has never been a progr...Since APP (unlike Spectrum) has never been a program where the District can set capacity and cut off enrollment (i.e. -- everyone who qualifies gets a seat), expansion must mean one (or more) of the following:<br /><br />1. Growth in overall SPS enrollment due to population;<br />2. Growth in highly gifted population only, due to either changes in Seattle demographics or change in relative percentages between private/public education of highly gifted kids;<br />3. Growth in the APP program due to the split/resiting of elementary and/or middle schools to TM and HIMS, respectively;<br />4. Change in the admissions protocols (either the testing requirements, the admissions percentage floor, or the evaluation/recommendation procedures for access to the program); or <br />5. Changes in the rates at which kids leave the program (either for private school, or for other public school options).<br /><br />Those are all I can think of -- have I missed any? I am not aware of any changes in No. 4 above (other than the end of the program that allowed some very young children with limited access to the kinds of resources that would lead to accelerated achievement -- but maybe that was only a path to Spectrum?)<br /><br />It sure would be nice to know which of the others (1 through 3 and 5) are in play. I feel that, with respect to high school APP, which is predicated not on closed classrooms, but on the size and identity of the cohort, we are being told that District-generated overcrowding demands that we make decisions without necessary data. <br />GHS overcrowding is sufficiently severe that giving northend APP kids an "option" of going to APP/IB at Ingraham will not solve the problem. In fact, even "forcing" northend APP kids to Ingraham (which I predict is just 1 year away) will not solve Garfield's problem. <br /><br />If they want to "preserve" Garfield APP, because it has been good for GHS and good for the kids, they would build and staff a voluntary northend APP/IB program with really compelling curriculum -- starting in 9th grade for pre-IB, and regular IB at 10th grade, with a 12th grade option like the one in Bellevue. IF (as I suspect), a fair chunk of the growth is coming because more northend parents are willing to enroll their middle school APP-eligible kids in the program now that it is in the north end, AND Ingraham did LOTS of outreach at Hamilton to build a really solid bridge between those kids and Ingraham's program -- we could actually end up with a win-win solution (because if the program is cohort-based, but the cohort grows to the level that you can support 2 programs without significantly dropping the numbers, everyone wins (I think). Except maybe northend parents who really wish they had picked a more accessible northend location (which would mean boundary moves that, no matter how reasonable, would bring out all the APP haters -- again).Janhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09923777229601243321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-61725837183377068962010-12-06T17:16:14.106-08:002010-12-06T17:16:14.106-08:00Here's a funny thing.
Growth of APP was a spe...Here's a funny thing.<br /><br />Growth of APP was a specific goal of the APP split. Now that it has happened (whether because of the split or for other reasons), the District acts all shocked.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-57236260062728446282010-12-06T16:53:43.205-08:002010-12-06T16:53:43.205-08:00Additionally, where there is always an increase in...Additionally, where there is always an increase in APP from 5th to 6th grade, the percent increase has gone way up. <br /><br />Increase in size of 6th grade APP class as a percent of the previous year's fifth grade APP enrollment<br />08-09 12%<br />09-10 35%<br />10-11 43%Dorothy Nevillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17108759281089768738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-18181701245315707052010-12-06T16:39:33.060-08:002010-12-06T16:39:33.060-08:00Ok, the problem with GHS right now is the boundary...Ok, the problem with GHS right now is the boundary, not the immediate growth of APP. The gaping hole where Queen Ann High should be is the root of that. The determined failure to address that is the root of the current crisis at Garfield. (That along with bad boundaries that seemed like short term appeasement to get public support.)<br /><br />Is APP growing? Can it and should it all fit into one high school in the long run? That's a different question. It appears APP is growing faster than general enrollment growth.<br /><br />For the past three years, as a percent of the total elementary school population, APP elementary enrollment has been<br />08-09 2.68%<br />09-10 2.73%<br />10-11 2.94%<br /><br />Same calculation using middle school enrollment<br />08-09 4.73%<br />09-10 4.48%<br />10-11 5.05%<br /><br />And for High School:<br />08-09 3.10%<br />09-10 3.27%<br />10-11 3.41%<br /><br />There was a huge jump from 7th to 8th grade this year, 14% increase from 155 t0 177 students (last two years showed 1% increase and 3% decrease respectively from 7th to 8th grade). I do not know which building the growth occured. However, this would seem to show that there really is more interest in getting into APP in 8th grade in order to get into Garfield. I predicted that with Hamilton being more convenient to the North End and now even there's a slightly later start time, along the NSAP causing issues with getting into other HSs, there would be just this sort of increase. So it would be Very Interesting to see who is applying in 7th grade? Of the 22 (or more) new students in 8th grade APP, what's their attendance area HS?<br /><br />If anyone wants a copy of my spreadsheet with these figures, send me an email.Dorothy Nevillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17108759281089768738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-14587596961215947952010-12-06T16:36:28.791-08:002010-12-06T16:36:28.791-08:00To answer Meg's comment about AS1. In the 04-0...To answer Meg's comment about AS1. In the 04-05 closure rounds, the district proposed the following. <br /><br /><i>AS #1, an alternative K-8 school, is located in the Pinehurst building in this region. This program is currently an all-city draw, but many of the students in the program come from the Northwest and Northeast regions. We recommend reducing the AS #1 assignment draw to the Northwest, Northeast, and Queen Anne/Magnolia regions. This will allow more regional students to access this program, and will also reduce transportation costs.</i><br /><br />Here is the link <a href="http://www.seattleschools.org/area/spsplan/geo_overview_ne.xml" rel="nofollow"> to the NE region analysis </a>that drove that suggestion. <br /><br />Here is the link to <a href="http://www.seattleschools.org/area/spsplan/index.dxml" rel="nofollow">the entire 04-05 plan.</a>kelliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01322661098626555834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-63851278874292595512010-12-06T16:03:27.699-08:002010-12-06T16:03:27.699-08:00Parent in Seattle,
Student population in the nort...Parent in Seattle,<br /><br />Student population in the north end has grown by more than 25%. It is no surprise to anyone in this part of town that APP growth would be proportionate to that overall student growth. It is just a surprise to the district. The APP roll up numbers were just conveniently ignored when drawing the Garfield boundaries plain and simple.<br /><br />- exhausted APP parentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-37633153707841356152010-12-06T13:28:30.390-08:002010-12-06T13:28:30.390-08:00That should read "a joke."That should read "a joke."southmomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01511168251318900652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-74434894488900694872010-12-06T13:26:34.336-08:002010-12-06T13:26:34.336-08:00Hi Emerald Kitty - Langston Hughes is in the Centr...Hi Emerald Kitty - Langston Hughes is in the Central Disrict, not south Seattle - it's really close to Garfield. 15 minutes to Ingram? From the U District maybe, not South Seattle - esp. at rush hour. More like 45 minutes or more by car - it's the furthest away high school I can think of. And what music and dance program at Seward Park - they just have a pottery studio there. And yes to the meetings - the neighborhood has been attending or emailing. <br /><br />And ride a bike to Ingram from South Seattle? A child do that in the winter? It would take so long and be so dangerous, I sincerely hope that is just a jobe.southmomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01511168251318900652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-71656130140519302432010-12-06T12:17:26.189-08:002010-12-06T12:17:26.189-08:00I was wondering where the idea re: law enforcement...I was wondering where the idea re: law enforcement came from- it has to come from the neighborhood- if they want students to BE from the neighborhood.<br /><br />They have the Langston Hughes theatre- strong community support for the arts & dance programs @ Seward Park & Madrona- I'd like to see an arts focused school in Seattle- learning to perform can translate into skills that everyone can use, but the community needs to have a say.<br /><br /><br />I would agree is hard to get to Ingraham-unless you have a car, it would take 15min to drive but by bus from 8th NW it will take an hour- and two transfers according to Metro- - you could ride your bike in 38min- according to GoogleJet City momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14804841958585043967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-13797515571378361412010-12-06T11:43:31.202-08:002010-12-06T11:43:31.202-08:00SPS figures that the criminals at RBHS might be im...SPS figures that the criminals at RBHS might be improved if they learned a little about law enforcement while at school. Or maybe that the less dud-like students will grow up to be cops and/or models for the criminals. All pretty patronizing if you ask me.<br /><br />SPS ParentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-92230924396397719662010-12-06T11:24:17.909-08:002010-12-06T11:24:17.909-08:00AS#1's enrollment has declined, but it hasn...AS#1's enrollment has declined, but it hasn't been over the course of the last decade. Check out their enrollment over the last decade <br /><br />2000-01: 252<br />2001-02: 248<br />2002-03: 252<br />2003-04: 260<br />2004-05: 271<br />2005-06: 273<br />2006-07: 211<br />2007-08: 210<br />2008-09: 191<br />2009-10: 189<br />2010-11: 150<br /><br />It was growing until 2005-06, when it dropped off sharply. Makes you wonder what happened, doesn't it?<br /><br />I think (but haven't absolutely confirmed) that AS#1 was discussed as a possibility for closure in 2005-06. It didn't make the preliminary recommendation list, but by fall 2006, it was officially recommended for closure. And strangely, people aren't eager to sign their kids up for a school that looks like it could be closed. <br /> <br />As it happens, Summit's enrollment started to decline the same year. It didn't make it out of the 2008-09 closure round, but it was, I think, a good example of how threats from the district can hobble a school.Meghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12795753563127975720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-55986207776568582102010-12-06T11:16:39.753-08:002010-12-06T11:16:39.753-08:00southmom, have you attended any of the meetings th...<b>southmom</b>, have you attended any of the meetings the RBHS PTSA has sponsored? I've been impressed about the way they seem to be reaching out to families from the elementaries that feed into RBHS. It seems like that sort of long term vision and advocacy could make a huge difference. The other important thing to do is to engage the staff.Maureenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18444916440000921599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-60767162417552784532010-12-06T11:08:35.319-08:002010-12-06T11:08:35.319-08:00I am just outraged at the lack of firm plans for R...I am just outraged at the lack of firm plans for RBHS right now. Those of us with a mandatory assignment cannot believe we have not heard more. I appreciate that Garfield is challenged right now, but PLEASE, there are 1,000 students in the RBHS area scattered to the winds, going anywhere else they can. I mean, Ingram? Do you know how far away that is for SE Seattle families? I imagine the reason the IB enrollment dropped a bit at Ingram is because SE students also now have Sealth's IB program. It's also a total pain to get to - kids on my street need more than an hour by public transportation - but it's a good program. Where is the IB or AP program for the southend??? We don't need some funky law enforcement program. That will not attract local families, I'm here to tell you. It will not save that school. Families here want the same excellent, general, challenging academic high school programs that are in such abundance north of here.southmomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01511168251318900652noreply@blogger.com