tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post6799427020604747368..comments2024-03-29T02:41:52.718-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: NTN Vote Rationale for Each DirectorMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-64278906476897379622010-02-15T05:37:00.499-08:002010-02-15T05:37:00.499-08:00Melissa asked me to speak to Director Maier's ...Melissa asked me to speak to Director Maier's rationale regarding the number of students in the Cleveland High School area.<br /><br />There is no such thing as a "Cleveland High School area". The District can draw the high school attendance area boundaries any way they like. They could draw them so that there are thousands of students in the Cleveland area or so there are none.<br /><br />The real truth is that when the District added up the functional capacity of the ten comprehensive high schools and the two Option high schools, they found that they had thousands more seats than they needed. The Capacity Management plan called for the closure of a high school because the District had excess capacity. That excess capacity was in the south-end, so the high school to close would be either Cleveland or Rainier Beach. Do you all remember this at the end of the capacity management process?<br /><br />They couldn't close Rainier Beach because it is the only high school close to thousands of students living south of Graham. They didn't want to close Cleveland because they just renovated it (at great expense).<br /><br />The District didn't want to close a high school, so they started to monkey with the data. They tried a lot of things. They were wriggling like a fish on the hook. They tried adding back the students in Service schools. That didn't work. They tried a lot of other things, but the only that worked was to artificially remove Cleveland from the capacity management formula without closing the school. They did that by making it an Option School.<br /><br />This is bizarre. They acknowledged that they had too many high school seats. They reclassified Cleveland as an Option school and then considered the problem solved. Making Cleveland an Option school alters neither the number of seats nor the number of students. So how in the world does it impact capacity management? It doesn't. It's a statistical shuffle that doesn't change the real numbers or facts in any way.<br /><br />By the way, the District could have legitimately fixed their capacity management issue by making Cleveland the location of the SBOC.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-85514997038300321502010-02-11T20:59:18.592-08:002010-02-11T20:59:18.592-08:00So that's where we are. The choice to go with ...So that's where we are. The choice to go with NTN only makes sense in the context of needing a PBL school up and running completely in the fall. If we don't need the school to be completely PBL or if we don't need it to be completely PBL by the fall, then the contract with NTN doesn't make any sense at all.<br /><br />Do we need the school to be completely PBL? No, we don't. It won't be tragic if the school is only part PBL.<br /><br />Do we need the school to be completely PBL by the fall? Again, we don't. Even if we decided that we did want it to be completely PBL, there is no reason that it couldn't work up to it. It could start out with some PBL and then convert more to PBL over time.<br /><br />So... if we don't need the school to be completely PBL and we certainly don't need it to be completely PBL by the fall, then we don't need the NTN contract, do we?<br /><br />We already have home-grown examples of Project-based learning. We have Project Lead the Way, which offers project-based engineering and global health classes, and we have The NOVA Project, an entire high school that is project-based in every class - language arts, social studies, math, science, art, and electives. We don't need outside expertise unless we're working under a heavy deadline.<br /><br />News Flash: there was no heavy deadline.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-8378126992715274592010-02-11T19:05:28.587-08:002010-02-11T19:05:28.587-08:00STEM and NTN are two totally different things. On...STEM and NTN are two totally different things. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. <br /><br />There is no data to show that STEM or NTN were home grown ideas at CHS because they were not. Staff has discussed and given input about how they will deal with it, but not about whether or not they wanted it.AtticusRushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08405984419264068088noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-75835745098418815262010-02-11T17:34:52.780-08:002010-02-11T17:34:52.780-08:00Hm. Very interesting point, Charlie. I had sort ...Hm. Very interesting point, Charlie. I had sort of lost sight of the fact that EVEN IF STEM makes sense, there is nothing compelling it to be 100% (or any percent) PBL. <br />I had been thinking that this was a LESS compelling case for an "arbitrary and capricious" argument -- especially one based on disparate minority impact, because:<br />1. It is an option school, and no child will be sent there unless he/she selects it.<br />2. Your EARLIER arguments on a different thread -- a large, newly renovated school, with NO neighborhood population (after the SAP lines were drawn the way they were) and with the need to create some sort of compelling draw (so all those "fictional" kids at Ballard, Roosevelt, Garfield, Hale, etc. will flee THEIR neighborhood schools to ride across town to go there -- which is the ONLY way there will be room for the option seats at those schools).<br />It seems to me that the really arbitrary and capricious decision was the one to implement SAP next year, rather than waiting a year, and using that year to strengthen RBHS, develop a curriculum and delivery model for Cleveland, etc. -- this could all have been done so much less expensively. <br />But since this is not a disparate impact case, it seems to me it all comes down the the wisdom and cost of the "hurry up" campaign. How an "arbitrary and capricious" argument will work with those facts, I don't know (but, if they intend to challenge it, hopefully the attorneys who argued the math decision do).Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18171991585667195445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-2375761372395741872010-02-11T15:38:57.823-08:002010-02-11T15:38:57.823-08:00It is possible that a case could be made for the N...It is possible that a case could be made for the NTN contract as the only possible way that the District could get a comprehensive project-based learning program up and running by the fall. Let's remember that NTN's expertise is in PBL, not specifically in STEM.<br /><br />Of course, that would then leave the task of justifying the need to have a project-based learning program and the need to have it fully implemented by the fall. The case for those decisions is less clear.<br /><br />Why, exactly, did we need to have a school wholly devoted to project-based learning? Why, exactly, did we need to have it fully implemented by the fall?<br /><br />Let's remember that there was no such urgency to have other curricula fully implemented. APP, for example, was split - a split for which the justification was predicated on the concurrent implementation of a written, taught and tested curriculum - without a curriculum. Special Education services will be delivered in inclusive classrooms all across the District in the fall with less planning, less training, and less support than STEM. So what was the urgency around having the project-based learning up and running for STEM? Without the urgency, the expense of the contract makes no sense.<br /><br />Actually, without the commitment to project-based learning, the contract makes no sense, so what, exactly, is the desperate need for project-based learning? The Board resolution approved a STEM school. It did not specify that the school had to use project-based learning. So what other pedagogies were considered? I don't think any were. How was PBL chosen? Not through any transparent process. Perhaps not through a rational or data-based one.<br /><br />So while the selection of NTN as the provider of services may have been well-considered...Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-9557216366238544042010-02-10T10:54:03.018-08:002010-02-10T10:54:03.018-08:00It does sound like there is a compelling case to b...It does sound like there is a compelling case to be made for the Board's NTN/STEM decision being "arbitrary and capricious."<br /><br />But where would the plaintiffs get the funds to make such an appeal?<br /><br />How many "Arbitrary & Capricious" T-shirts would they need to sell? (By the way, I would like to order 3!)gavrochehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11336376340965305696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-50448411517381342642010-02-09T12:22:58.442-08:002010-02-09T12:22:58.442-08:00Parent of Three said:
"And with the deadline ...Parent of Three said:<b><i><br />"And with the deadline for enrollment on the horizon they had no other choice but to vote yes."</i></b><br /><br />Yes this points out that if one is a follower of and believer in MGJ's design, implementation, and execution of her Strategic Plan, then it is necessary to make decisions that no reasonable board member would ever make.<br /><br />At least we have two reasonable board members KSB and Patu, who did have another choice ... NO.<br /><br />The gang of four "yes-voters" had to ignore the empirical evidence submitted by the public to once again make an "Arbitrary & Capricious" decision.<br /><br />If it gets to Superior Court, this one will look even worse than the SPS Math defeat as the Staff had no empirical evidence to advance their position.<br /><br />Those four board members clearly think that "Happy Thoughts" and SAP plans trump empirical evidence in decision making. Yes for these four that is the case because on a regular basis they make decisions that no reasonable director would make.dan dempseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15536720661510933983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-34711258705166939922010-02-09T10:54:31.456-08:002010-02-09T10:54:31.456-08:00Bird, I am not exactly the budget person but I can...Bird, I am not exactly the budget person but I can tell you the district has to have a balanced budget. The first figure of $45M came from state budget cuts (estimated), enrollment money, etc. So now they have a better idea from the state and enrollments and the figure has gone down to $25M. Plainly speaking, it is likely they will RIF more teachers. <br /><br />BUT does our district live within our means? No, they don't.<br /><br />I'll try to work up some sort of overview but again, I'm not the budget person.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-55302017229825028992010-02-09T10:20:12.916-08:002010-02-09T10:20:12.916-08:00Also, FYI, COO Don Kennedy, in his budget report, ...<i>Also, FYI, COO Don Kennedy, in his budget report, says that they will be able to get the $45M deficit down to $24M.</i><br /><br />So how do these "deficits" work? I don't understand how a school district can have a "deficit" that doesn't get addressed in the same fiscal year. It's not like the district sells bonds for operating expenses.<br /><br />Didn't we have a deficit last year? Where did the money come from to operate in the face of that? Do deficits build up year to year?<br /><br />Can someone in the know give me a 101 on how district finances work?<br /><br />FWIW, I don't think we should be throwing around $800K that we don't have. If we have $24M deficit, we need to cut the budget down to the essentials.Birdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16540428343439198125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-67154041633258662232010-02-09T10:03:30.713-08:002010-02-09T10:03:30.713-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Birdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16540428343439198125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-51603270033060867632010-02-09T08:17:46.921-08:002010-02-09T08:17:46.921-08:00The had to approve the contract because they had n...The had to approve the contract because they had no other choice. If they asked for another company to be brought to them for review they would be told there is none. And with the deadline for enrollment on the horizon they had no other choice but to vote yes.ParentofThreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15853045587227159562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-32274933585890963082010-02-08T23:40:27.437-08:002010-02-08T23:40:27.437-08:00Seattle Person said:
"Now, the question for m...Seattle Person said:<br /><b><i>"Now, the question for me is "Will it be high quality?". I hope so, I really do."</i></b><br /><br />Well looking at all that NTN data I compiled ... High Quality is not a characteristic of any of the NTN schools.<br /><br />Project Based learning has dismal results unless the situation has very highly skilled teachers using incredibly well designed projects. <br /><br />I guess we are not buying that as Harium kept saying this is not about content we are buying a foundational ...... damn I fell asleep.<br /><br />These NTN schools are terrible and we are not buying content... what are we buying just the smoke and mirrors.<br /><br />When I look at KnowledgeWorks Foundation the parent of NTN it looks like we are helping them with their race to the bank.....<br /><br />Wow what goes on in the heads of the gang of four?dan dempseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15536720661510933983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-54282970879016512642010-02-08T20:52:32.861-08:002010-02-08T20:52:32.861-08:00Although I am a tremendous KSB fan, I disagree wit...Although I am a tremendous KSB fan, I disagree with:<br /><b><i>"She said that NTN's success had been in smaller schools (400-500) and smaller class sizes. </i></b><br /><br />#1... I do not believe there are any NTN school of even 400 enrollment.<br /><br />#2... <b><i>NTN's success</i></b>...... where, show me the numbers?<br /><br />If success is related to significant academic achievement that can be attributed to the NTN model, I haven't found any, because I have found little of anything that could be called success.<br /><br />These schools are serious under-performers.<br /><b><i><br />The fact that the Superintendent's staff did ZERO research into finding any academic performance data is completely irresponsible. The fact that Carr, Maier, Sundquist, and Martin-Morris voted for this contract with full knowledge of how bad these schools are is inexcusable.</i></b><br /><br />Just because our Superintendent painted you into a corner with her SAP, does not justify complete incompetence on the part of the directors. It is possible for people who look at all the evidence to vote NO as KS-B and Patu demonstrated. This puts Carr, Maier, & Sundquist as two time losers on "Discovering" and now "NTN".<br /><br />I think that since Marty McLaren is on the hook for about $9,000 these directors who averaged around $150,000 each in campaign donations <a href="http://seattlemathgroup.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">should donate to Ms. McLaren.</a><br />=====================<br /><br />Peter and Steve can take out their check books or use paypal...<br /><br />Send a check to Seattle Math Group,<br /><br />c/o Martha Mclaren<br />7020 18th Ave. SW, J22<br />Seattle, WA 98106<br /><br />Donate via email, through Paypal, to <b>mmcl@pugetridge.net</b>dan dempseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15536720661510933983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-26301935036798384772010-02-08T20:17:53.220-08:002010-02-08T20:17:53.220-08:00OK folks the key words from Judge Spector were the...OK folks the key words from Judge Spector were these:<br /><br /><i>The court finds, based upon a review of the administrative record, that <b>there is insufficient evidence for any reasonable Board member to approve the selection of the Discovering series.</b></i><br /><br />Now move that to NTN:<br /><br />The 4 directors who voted for the $800,000 contract neglected most of the evidence. Look at this:<br /><a href="http://mathunderground.blogspot.com/2010/02/new-technology-network-school-data.html" rel="nofollow"> NTN School Data</a>.<br /><br />Harium was talking about Hillsdale New Tech in Durham, North Carolina.(Low Income = 44%)<br /> In spite of his glowing comments, it is just like most of the NTN schools in Math it scores worse than Regular Hillsdale high, which is 56% Low Income. Also both of these schools did not make AYP and are ranked in the bottom 20% of North Carolina Schools.<br /><br />Every NTN school I examined is showing poor math performance. It is quite clear that Project Based Learning does not work. In regard to Thornton Creek they no longer use PBL for math.<br /><br />Did Staff feed Harium that Thornton Creek number? Or did he find it on his own. Surely Staff knew that Thornton Creek was not using PBL for math..... well who knows what staff knows.<br /><br />Given Meg Diaz's report it is now quite clear that:<br /><br /><i><b>There is insufficient evidence for any reasonable Board member to approve the $800,000 NTN contract.</b></i><br /><br />Maier & Sundquist need to more fully explain their votes .... <i><b>including the part where they do not consider the evidence that either Meg or I submit to them as relevant in making their "Arbitrary and Capricious" decisions.</b></i><br /><br />Of course up next will be the drastic needed for performance management of teachers because the teachers are just not making all this fine stuff work successfully.dan dempseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15536720661510933983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-65588592581031160342010-02-08T17:47:36.528-08:002010-02-08T17:47:36.528-08:00You said it Stu. And we need to keep saying it, o...You said it Stu. And we need to keep saying it, over and over. How did splitting APP help "at risk kids?" How did closing Cooper help "at risk kids?" How will STEM help "at risk kids?" <br /><br />All this crap about closing the achievement gap, but all they seem to be doing is scattering struggling populations all over the district so it looks like things are improving. What next, will they start counseling kids to take GED's to clean them off the books like Jeb Bush did in Florida, then touted his increased graduation rates? Do these people have any conscience? Any soul?wseadawghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08750439461734046035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-90287919682831152952010-02-08T17:43:17.694-08:002010-02-08T17:43:17.694-08:00Given how the math decision came about, this decis...<i>Given how the math decision came about, this decision has an odd ring of the familiar.</i><br /><br />Oh yes it does, doesn't it. Re: Sundquist buying himself an out later on, it sure sounds like the Rationalizer-In-Chief is doing just that, as he always does when he frames every issue as though he has no choice on which way to vote. Somehow it's ALWAYS in accord with the staff's desires. Weird.wseadawghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08750439461734046035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-34769571657801627202010-02-08T17:36:06.508-08:002010-02-08T17:36:06.508-08:00Delta HS in the Tri-Cities had over 300 kids apply...<i>Delta HS in the Tri-Cities had over 300 kids apply for only 100 slots. Attendance slots were allocated from all three cities in numbers proportional to the students these districts have. My take is that distance is often *not* a barrier to participating in this type of curriculum.</i><br /><br />This from the Delta High School admissions page: <br /><br /><i>Must be flexible and willing to work hard (slackers need not apply)</i><br /><br />Over achievers, strong students, students interested in this type of learning, will try to figure out transportation to come to STEM. However, this program does nothing to serve the students who are currently at Cleveland and offers nothing to those who are already hitting high school far behind in math and science. Also, note that both the Kennewick and Pasco school districts supply some transportation to Delta High School. (Richland students take the public bus; a bit easier, in some ways, than getting around Seattle.)<br /><br />ANY program that draws the best and brightest is going to succeed somehow; that's not the problem with this district. We're supposed to be about a quality education for ALL students.<br /><br />stuStuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11769983958729170219noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-61197383428450064232010-02-08T17:31:04.628-08:002010-02-08T17:31:04.628-08:00Franklin would have been a better choice for an al...Franklin would have been a better choice for an all city draw. It's a great location for transit.<br /><br />However, I think the goal here was to replace an unpopular school with a popular one (as others have said, mostly by replacing the students). With that goal in mind, it was either Beach or Cleveland. Franklin just isn't unpopular enough. Cleveland is not quite is out of the way as Beach, and is a nicer, newer building.TechyMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04650916001250022778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-13267434387022691442010-02-08T16:58:38.098-08:002010-02-08T16:58:38.098-08:00I think one of the biggest hurdles for city-wide e...I think one of the biggest hurdles for city-wide enrollment in STEM at Cleveland is transportation. There's just not an easy way to get to Cleveland from Ballard or many other areas of the City. Perhaps once it is up and running, and a proven success, parents will come up with van-pools, etc. However, I believe the District is being overly optimistic in thinking that large numbers will come from the three most popular high schools this fall.SolvayGirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12709893209963350066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-25158851580891215612010-02-08T15:48:15.173-08:002010-02-08T15:48:15.173-08:00Regarding the attendance from out of the Cleveland...Regarding the attendance from out of the Cleveland area (even though there really isn’t a "Cleveland area" anymore), Delta HS in the Tri-Cities had over 300 kids apply for only 100 slots. Attendance slots were allocated from all three cities in numbers proportional to the students these districts have. My take is that distance is often *not* a barrier to participating in this type of curriculum. Will that translate in Seattle? I don't know but we'll see.<br /><br />TAF tried a couple years ago to open a STEM-based school in SPS but for reasons unknown to me (although I can guess) it was never realized. They are in Year 2 in Federal Way and have 200 kids enrolled. Aviation HS in Highline has kids from all over the Puget Sound region, not just the district-drawn "capture area".<br /><br />I think that yes, there are a number of families who would make the effort to get their kids to Cleveland for a high-quality STEM program, especially if it's the only public one in town. Now, the question for me is "Will it be high quality?". I hope so, I really do.SeattlePersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00985829762959295448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-82145409286452623002010-02-08T14:03:22.901-08:002010-02-08T14:03:22.901-08:00it took Melissa three-four hours to WATCH this thi...it took Melissa three-four hours to WATCH this thing, then another hour to craft a detailed and exhaustive summary.<br />Multiply that by four or five years and you get the picture...<br />Thanks, Melissa. Again!<br /><br />Regarding all these issues, maybe we should send in WV's winsymen: They ALWAYS win.seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-50016217044652573842010-02-08T12:59:29.070-08:002010-02-08T12:59:29.070-08:00And the exclamation point on Poor Decision Making ...And the exclamation point on Poor Decision Making is that nagging little fact that the Staff/Board's NTN school visit didn't show them a STEM implementation. <br /><br />Due Diligence is Dead. There's another T Shirt for you.Central Momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05411595538958030193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-51145400942279767532010-02-08T12:58:26.948-08:002010-02-08T12:58:26.948-08:00Always happy to slog thru your posts, Melissa, rat...<i>Always happy to slog thru your posts, Melissa, rather than have to watch the thing myself! Thank you.</i><br /><br />Amen to that!ArchStantonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10746480698492983438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-26477139033976179852010-02-08T12:55:32.319-08:002010-02-08T12:55:32.319-08:00Always happy to slog thru your posts, Melissa, rat...Always happy to slog thru your posts, Melissa, rather than have to watch the thing myself! Thank you.Chris S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17016898261120819596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-67905218045437346562010-02-08T12:52:55.460-08:002010-02-08T12:52:55.460-08:00What is the reason they could not have declared Cl...What is the reason they could not have declared Cleveland an Option school beginning immediately for enrollment trend purposes, and committed to STEM as coming, but waited one full year (until 2011-12)for planning, funding and marketing, all of which is much needed to make the school a success?<br /><br /><b>There is no reason.</b> Especially since the District plays games with the Alt school designation and uses the Option title instead, for purposes of capacity management. (A "normal" program can still be an Option school. Dumb.)<br /><br />I completely disagree with Harium. Doing "nothing" on that vote was ABSOLUTELY an choice. And that "nothing" would have allowed time to examine additional alternatives, or "homegrow" the program, or even accept NTN, but fully funded by grant dollars.<br /><br />Nothing wrong with STEM. <b>A whole lot wrong with the Staff's way of doing business and the Board's reasoning on the vote.</b>Central Momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05411595538958030193noreply@blogger.com