tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post7221698134871689399..comments2024-03-28T02:21:17.452-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Cleveland High School RemodelMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger104125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-15152812068268878472007-10-08T13:22:00.000-07:002007-10-08T13:22:00.000-07:00Dan,Can you comment on the relationship between th...Dan,<BR/>Can you comment on the relationship between the International Math Curriculum and the "New Math" that was taught in parts of the US during the 1960s and 1970s? Your description of International Math sounds very similar to the New Math I had.<BR/><BR/>I went to school in California, class of 1986, and I had New Math. My class was the last class that had it. I loved it, and I remember that kids who were good at math, and whose parents had college-level math experience, did very well in it. <BR/><BR/>A great deal of the controversy, as I rememeber it from my grade-school seat, was around kids who were struggling. Many of these kids had parents who weren't familiar with regions, functions, set theory and factorials, and so couldn't help them with their homework. Had we stuck with the program, this issue would eventually have gone away, but it was a real issue at the time. I suspect that there were also issues with teacher training at some schools, though I every teacher I had was excited about New Math. <BR/><BR/>The other issues were around implemenation. Kids were switched from one curriculum to the other, at grade level, without any catch-up. 4th grade New Math requires many skills not taught in 3rd grade traditional math, so many kids floundered. When it was phased out, my class had New Math all the way through, the class of '87 had traditional math all the way through. Had a similar phase-in been done when the New Math was introduced, I suspect it would have gone more smoothly.<BR/><BR/>I remember my calculus teacher in college commenting that he saw a major drop in preparedness when the class of '87 came through. If International Math is the same as new math, then I'm all for it. But, I would hope that we could do a better job of implementing it than California did in the 1960s.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-20142039733484018452007-10-07T14:30:00.000-07:002007-10-07T14:30:00.000-07:00The alternative schools serve these "active boys" ...The alternative schools serve these "active boys" in that they get away with much more. Their behavior gets worse, instead of better as they get older. They are never really taught to control themselves or their impulses. They don't get into trouble or have any consequences for their behavior. They are not held accountable, no principal office visits, no lunch duty. Nothing. <BR/><BR/>Is this really serving them?<BR/>Is it fair to them? Is it fair to the other students who want to learn in a reasonably calm and structured setting? Is it fair to the kids who gets hit, kicked or bitten by them? Is it fair to the teacher who gets called a bitch by them (I witnessed this)?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-19754547452283215182007-10-07T11:44:00.000-07:002007-10-07T11:44:00.000-07:00"The children who have the hardest time are more o..."The children who have the hardest time are more often than not, boys. Especially active boys that are still learning or having a difficult time with self control, as rules are few, and not often enforced."<BR/><BR/>That's very disheartening to me. I'd have expected that alternative schools would go out of their way to suit such children *better* than more traditional, regimented schools. Certainly I know people who've chosen alternative schools for such reasons (not necessarily in Seattle). <BR/><BR/>Helen SchinskeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-89751818363930823052007-10-07T10:12:00.000-07:002007-10-07T10:12:00.000-07:00Yes, I agree, alternative schools do work for some...Yes, I agree, alternative schools do work for some children. Socially, the children that thrive are more often girls, and they generally tend to have a lot of self control, and are natural rule followers, and rule enforcers. The children who have the hardest time are more often than not, boys. Especially active boys that are still learning or having a difficult time with self control, as rules are few, and not often enforced. A lack of rule enforcement, coupled with children with less self control, is a recipe for disaster. This was the situation we were in. So were many many other families. The classrooms were noisy with a lot of movement and distractions. Due to the inclusive nature of the school there were many more special ed children with IEP's, and children with behavior issues. <BR/><BR/>Academically, the children that did well were the very self motivated kids, generally girls. If they were very motivated to learn and get their work done, they did well. That does not describe the majority of young children. Most need motivation. There was nothing to motivate these kids. No report cards, no grades, no consequences for disruptive behavior. Nothing. If your child is one of the few that gets satisfaction in a job well done, they would do fine in an alternative school. For the rest, it can be misery, with very very little learning happening, and poor habits being formed. There is also a safety concern. There were many injuries during the years we were in alternative schools. My child had two major injuries (needing an ER visits) during his alternative school career. Few rules, behavior challenges, and lack of supervision on the playground, led to many injuries. <BR/><BR/>Again, I will repeat that I am glad that alternative schools are an option for Seattle. They just didn't work for my kids.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-46394510891333223952007-10-06T21:13:00.000-07:002007-10-06T21:13:00.000-07:00One of the things I find interesting in "No More A...One of the things I find interesting in "No More Alternative Schools" description of her son's experiences is that they describe my son's experiences in a traditional school, prior to moving to an alternative school<BR/><BR/>In the traditional school he did the bare minimum of work, turned work in late, even failed to grasp material, and his teachers let it slide because they knew from talking to him that he was "smart." This was not the case for him in the alternative schools he attended, AE2 and Salmon Bay. He's now in high school and is very self sufficient, engages topics deeply, and does a lot of writing and critical thinking for his classes. He's a sophomore at Hale, which is calling of this out of him. (And we do have some degree of objectivity about his h.s. level work - his father is a university humanities professor, and has seen his work and has been engaged in debate by him, to the enjoyment of both.) We are pleased with the level of rigor he's experiencing at Hale, and which he experienced at AE2 and Salmon Bay.<BR/><BR/>Having said that, our younger child does his best work in a more traditional setting. Kids are different. Perhaps different methods of teaching and engagement call out the best in each of them.<BR/>I think it's really, really difficult to compare experiences and translate them into generalities. I'm grateful that our school district has different options, so that as parents we can make changes when something really isn't working for our child. Is it necessary to label schools (either traditional or alternative) as "bad," because they weren't the best choice for our child? I know I find it difficult not to feel defensive when people make blanket statements about schools, particularly ones that have worked well for my child. And yet, in my own experience, I know that the same school can produce completely different results with different children. As much as it would be more convenient to run my kids through the same school, it isn't proving to be the best case in for my family.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-63950925274104585572007-10-06T16:21:00.000-07:002007-10-06T16:21:00.000-07:00Remember that Lowell shows up on the list of schoo...Remember that Lowell shows up on the list of schools with flat scores too. That's because it's always around 98 or 99% passing. 100% isn't really realistic, but would a school that had 100% for several years in a row get dinged for being "flat" too? <BR/><BR/>I remember reading (was it Chris Vance's article?) that the WASL was designed with the idea that 60% would pass it, preventing the 40% who weren't at grade level from getting a diploma. I'm not saying I agree with that approach, but that's what the WASL originators expected. Given that, I'd say that TOPS scores in the 70s are pretty respectable.<BR/><BR/>There's more to life than Reading and Math. When a school's scores are very low, maybe they should focus on that. I'm not entirely convinced they should, but it's a reasonable approach. However, once the scores are ok, I think it's time to expend some energy on other things.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-54083332632737936112007-10-06T14:34:00.000-07:002007-10-06T14:34:00.000-07:00to look at TOPS- assuming we are using WASL as a m...to look at TOPS- assuming we are using WASL as a model of how we know if a school is working or not ( which is debatable- its like using SAT to determine if a student is prepared for college)<BR/><BR/>Tops compared to AS#1 another K-8 school and to the district has <BR/>77% of students passing the 8th gd math WASL ( used because math is the area most students have difficulty with)<BR/><BR/>AS#1 has 26.3 % students passing 8th grade WASL ( OSPI does not show 7th gd scores for AS#1) and the Seattle school district has 49.5% passing.<BR/><BR/>So I haven't looked to see what may be impacting flat scores- I expect perhaps even though their pass rate isn't 100% they have other priorities- but 25% higher than district average is worth a look IMO.Jet City momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14804841958585043967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-88076366119127623152007-10-06T08:47:00.000-07:002007-10-06T08:47:00.000-07:00I recall reading an article recently where TOPS wa...I recall reading an article recently where TOPS was on the top 10 list of schools with the least improvement over time. Flat WASL scores, that have NOT been improving.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-85569577759307345582007-10-05T22:31:00.000-07:002007-10-05T22:31:00.000-07:00To No More alternative Schools:Like Maureen, I als...To No More alternative Schools:<BR/><BR/>Like Maureen, I also have a kid in middle school at TOPS. The classwork is challenging, the kids are held accountable for due dates,<BR/>there are no "A's" just for effort.<BR/><BR/>In 6th grade they are reading<BR/>"Animal Farm" and learning the anatomy of movement - learning tasks have included writing, journaling, note taking, tests.<BR/><BR/>If they don't do well on a test they can work on answers and resubmit for more points, which makes sense to me because the whole idea is to learn the material.<BR/><BR/>Sounds pretty different to me from what some of you are describing at Salmon Bay and other alternative schools.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-2886811911530047152007-10-05T21:22:00.000-07:002007-10-05T21:22:00.000-07:00HOW TO MAKE THINGS BETTER 1. To Improve this schoo...<B> HOW TO MAKE THINGS BETTER </B><BR/><BR/>1. To Improve this school system will require the intelligent application of relevant data<BR/><BR/><I>This does not happen often as decisions that matter are made by autocratic centralized mandates that neglect the use of relevant data in decision making.</I><BR/><BR/>2. A large complex school system can not run successfully by ignoring relevant input and contributions from those actually doing the work of teaching and educating the children whether they be parents or teachers.<BR/><BR/><I>This is not to say that direction should be changed each time someone raises a concern. In fact the exact opposite should be true.<BR/><BR/>Well devised plans must be implemented which because of proper research and investigation can be defended so that these plans can be continued long enough to produce positive results and then continue. This is not to say fine tuning may not be required, but the scrap it and start over Seattle Style has not been successful.</I><BR/><BR/>3. Extremely poor curricular choices hamper schools especially those in the South end. Better curricula are desperately needed.<BR/><BR/><I>From AIR ( the <B>American Institutes for Research</B> ) –<BR/>Only three of the approaches examined--<B>Direct Instruction,</B> High Schools That Work, and <B>Success for All</B>--provide strong evidence that they positively impact student achievement.<BR/><BR/>There has been a widening achievement gap for Black, Hispanic, and Low Income students in math over the last ten years. This is true of both Seattle and Bellevue. A major reason extremely poor curricular choices.</I><BR/><BR/><B>Reform math</B> is ineffective particularly for children who do not have access to outside school assistance in the form of tutoring or access to knowledgeable family and friends.<BR/><BR/>Here are the long descriptions for those who like reading:<BR/><BR/>First for <B>Reform math</B> which is responsible for the widening achievement gap and the US #18 international math position among 36 countries.<BR/><BR/>The <B>“reform”</B> faction may be characterized as aligned with methods first set forth by the National Council of Teachers of Math (NCTM) in 1989. This approach features self-directed learning, group learning, many topics taught each year but never mastered and repeated annually until learned (Bruner’s concept of spiraling), and a greatly reduced emphasis on drill. Also greatly reduced use of traditional algorithms for multi-digit operations, use of calculators through the early grades, and algebra first introduced in the 9th grade. This latter model was the dominant curriculum in the U.S. during the 1990’s, and still is. Some early algebra was added to each grade in 2007, but it was not as aggressive as the algebra in the international curriculum. Also the added algebra further increased the large number of topics to be taught each year.<BR/><BR/>Next the <B>International Math Curriculum</B> used by the top performing counties in the world:<BR/><BR/>The <B>“international”</B> faction curriculum is derived from research and practice in the Soviet Union in the 1930’s and 1940’s. These ideas first spread to Poland and Israel, and eventually to parts of Europe and to Asia, including Singapore, Japan, Korea, etc. It features a greatly reduced number of topics taught in each grade, the integration of algebra with arithmetic starting in the 1st grade, early memorization of the multiplication tables aided by algebra methods, traditional algorithms for multi-digit operations, and lots of drill. Also fairly sophisticated algebraic concepts introduced starting in the 4th grade, demanding topics taught by the 6th grade, mostly direct instruction by the teacher, and no calculators (Schmidt et al. 2002). <B>This is now the dominant curriculum of the six leading TIMSS countries.</B> California is the only state incorporating an international curriculum into their math standards (Hook et al. 2007). <BR/><BR/>Next the <B>traditional math</B>:<BR/><BR/>The <B>“traditional”</B> faction generally believes elementary school math should be taught the way it was before Soviet Russia launched Sputnik7, the first earth-orbiting satellite, and thus before the advent of “new math”. This faction may be characterized as favoring topics taught in a linear fashion, early memorization of the multiplication tables by flash card methods and lots of drill. Also traditional algorithms for multi-digit operations, formal algebra first introduced in the 9th grade, direct lecturing by the teacher, and no calculators. <BR/><BR/><B> If South End schools are going to be significantly improved mathematically it will require the implementation of International Math i.e. Singapore and similar programs.</B><BR/><BR/>Seattle Plan is to:<BR/> <BR/>1) Use an expensive proven failure Everyday math<BR/><BR/>2) Expensive coaching for teachers instead of smaller class sizes.<BR/><BR/>3) Ignore D43 D44 and D45 so a ridiculous number of topics is taught at each grade level. As teachers are told to use the EM pacing guide.<BR/><BR/><B>This EM adoption occurred though an autocratic mandate at an un-videoed <BR/>School Board meeting. The Elementary School Math Adoption .pdf file was posted for a few short time on the SPS web-site</B><BR/><BR/><I>on the performance of University of Washington academics in the current math teaching controversy in the state of Washington, the <B>North American academic education community has not considered the international math curricula worthy of serious consideration</B>.</I><BR/><BR/>Why you ask?<BR/><B>Follow the money.<BR/>NSF grants and publisher profits.</B><BR/><BR/>There is currently very little information available to anyone about the SPS math adoption without using the Freedom of Information Act.<BR/><BR/>My Comments in regard to this adoption action:<BR/><BR/>1)<B> I have no idea what these multiple factors were that the Chief Academic Officer considered. A review of the factors presented to be positive shows them to be without substantive data in support of positive achievement.</B><BR/><BR/>2) There was never any data showing that this Everyday Math adoption would have a positive impact on students of color. The data from NYC was inaccurate in that not all schools adopted EM and that the additional new supports offered in all likelihood contributed to the small achievement gains.<BR/><BR/>3) The CAO ignored the international curriculum used by the best performing TIMSS countries. The CAO also chose to ignore Washington’s state-wide math failure announced by Dr. Terry Bergeson in August 2006. <BR/><BR/>The CAO was very aware of the Standards failure, as on January 17, 2007, I testified at the Seattle School Board meeting. At the following meeting in February, <B>the CAO testified that Seattle would have no new math adoptions until further guidance from the state.</B> According to Dr. Bergeson, the CAO received no new guidance from the state.<BR/><BR/><B>Instead the CAO chose the elementary school math curriculum most aligned with the failing Washington Math standards.</B> The most aligned materials continue to fail many Hispanics and most students without assistance from tutors, or knowledgeable family members.<BR/><BR/>4) All of the relevant data I submitted was ignored. This despite the fact I am NCLB highly qualified in Math, have a degree in Math, am an education committee member of the NAACP and am a member of the State Board of Education Math Advisory Panel working with the consultant Linda Plattner on the revision of Washington’s defective math standards. <BR/><BR/>5) I have repeatedly asked for the Mathematics K-12 program manager’s academic qualifications, experience, and certification; never receiving an answer. Is she NCLB highly qualified to teach high school Math? Is she certified to teach high school math? Does she have a degree in mathematics? What is the highest level math course she has taught?<BR/><BR/>6) Despite the fact that the SPS has non-promotion policy for elementary school that speaks of defined necessary skills at each grade level,<B> the CAO has yet to produce a list of those defined necessary skills. Instead of limiting the topics as suggested, the CAO chooses to have teachers follow the pacing guide for an ethnically discriminatory curriculum.</B><BR/><BR/><B>The HEIGHT OF ABSURDITY is the use of Everyday Math and Connected Math Project 2 at the African American Academy instead of Singapore Math or Saxon Math</B>Dan Dempseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01152200483530597948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-85619977079270831792007-10-05T19:58:00.000-07:002007-10-05T19:58:00.000-07:00As I said in a previous post, I am defining AS1, S...As I said in a previous post, I am defining AS1, Salmon Bay, and Summit as having no clear expectations for their students. I think I clearly said above that TOPS and AEII might be the exception, and possibly Pathfinder?? I can't speak about them as I have not had a student attend them. <BR/><BR/>Here are some questions for you, Maureen.<BR/><BR/>Does TOPS provide the same type and amount of homework as a traditional school? Are assessments/tests meaningful, viable and tangible? If your child didn't really understand his/her assignment could s/he fly under the radar? How would the teacher know that s/he didn't master the concept? Does TOPS have flexible due dates for assignments? Can a child turn in their work late and still get credit (without extenuating circumstances)? Do they give an A+ just for trying and not base the grade on the actual work that the child turned in? Do they have clear behavior expectations, and enforce them in some practical way? Are they focused so much on creativity, especially in writing, that grammar, punctuation are not important? Are their disproportionate numbers of kids that have behavioral challenges or learning disabilities? Do the children have to work at their top ability, or can they do the minimum and still get a good grade?<BR/><BR/>These are some questions to ask. We were part of an alternative school for so long, that these questions were not even on our radar. It was just the way it was, until our child began a traditional middle school this year. Now we see the discrepancies. He truly is having to re-learn how to apply himself, how to hold himself accountable, and how to be responsible for doing his best work. No more soft landings, no more A+ for effort, not more excuses. Now it's all about the quality and calipur of his work, and he is rising to the occasion, and feeling proud of himself. I am proud too. I couldn't be happier.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-67881266825282732792007-10-05T18:38:00.000-07:002007-10-05T18:38:00.000-07:00No More. . . and all: So are we DEFINING alternat...No More. . . and all: So are we DEFINING alternative schools to be schools that have no clear expectations of their students? Is that why TOPS and and AEII and maybe Pathfinder and possibly Orca haven't entered into this discussion? <BR/><BR/>I actually don't know if Salmon Bay and AS#1 have no clear expectations, this is based on No More's opinion--is there anyone out there to defend Salmon Bay? (Their test scores look lovely to me--but maybe that's their demographics?) Roy does a great job with AS#1. (It seems too child-driven for me but I'm glad it exists for the families who value it.)<BR/><BR/>I can't say how well TOPS kids do in traditional middle schools because we're K-8 so very few go and those that do left because TOPS wasn't a good fit for them.We have some of the top M.S. scores in the city for the kids who stay. From what I hear, TOPS kids do very well in traditional high schools. <BR/><BR/>Oh I forgot--TOPS (and AEII and Pathfinder. . .?) can't possible be DEFINED as alternative because it is not unsuccessful enough! Sorry about that!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-37389489517266877102007-10-05T16:08:00.000-07:002007-10-05T16:08:00.000-07:00I'm here to tell you that assimilating into a trad...I'm here to tell you that assimilating into a traditional middle school has been very tough for our child who attended alternative schools K-6.<BR/><BR/>He has had a rude awakening, as teachers give him assignments with deadlines that don't budge. He has had to adapt to a large amount of homework, and having his work evaluated and graded. He no longer gets an A+ just for effort, even though the quality of his work was sometimes well below his ability. <BR/><BR/>He formed bad habits at the alternative school which included not learning to challenge himself or work his hardest. He didn't have to. <BR/><BR/>Now if he turns in a paper with poor grammar or puctuation, it is graded accordingly, and it is returned to him to re-write. He is accountable. Now if he doesn't understand his math, he has to stay after class and ask his teacher for help, because he knows he has a test coming up which he will fail if he doesn't understand. He can no longer ignore the fact that he didn't understand something, and nobody noticing.<BR/><BR/>It's a different world at a traditional middle school, and boy am I glad he is learning all of this now, in middle school, when there is a bit more room for trial and error than in high school, when it really matters, and your GPA is at stake.<BR/><BR/>Beth and Roy, you are both right. Alternative schools do work for some families, and please don't get me wrong, I am glad they are part of our offerings. They just didn't work for our kid.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-49933061217428880702007-10-05T15:19:00.000-07:002007-10-05T15:19:00.000-07:00no more,I have yet to find any evidence that alter...no more,<BR/><BR/>I have yet to find any evidence that alternative school students are any less prepared for high school than other students are, and I have looked as that is something I have been concerned about. There doesn't really seem to be any data regarding student achievement anywhere that is organized in such a way that one can draw any valid conclusions about whether alternative school students are adequately prepared or not for high school. I do know that a group of AS#1 parents have been working with the school district to try to develop some data. As I understand it, they are looking at things like 9th grade GPAs, high school drop-out rates, and participation in AP/honors/IB type classes and trying to aggregate that data in a way that a K-8 or middle school can be evaluated on its effectiveness for preparing students for high school. Right now, the district doesn't organize its data in a way that makes it easy to pull those kinds of numbers, and there are privacy issues as well, so I have heard it is slow going.<BR/><BR/>That all being said, the only thing we currently have to go on appears to be anecdotal evidence, and that isn't very helpful, because for all the stories I have heard about an alternative school grad who struggles in high school, I hear lots of stories about the great things that other alternative school graduates do in high school, college, graduate school, etc., not to mention the fact that some students that go to traditional elementary and middle schools and would appear on paper to be well prepared for high school don't do well at all.Roy Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16120444973792909383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-19001733296514637792007-10-05T15:04:00.000-07:002007-10-05T15:04:00.000-07:00Speaking as the parent of a child who is thriving ...Speaking as the parent of a child who is thriving in an alternative school (AS#1), I think that some of the features that make alternative schools great for some children are going to very poorly serve other children. What for some families is "lack of rigor" is for others an opportunity to learn more by being free to pursue their interests and curiosity.<BR/><BR/>I'm going to brag on my daughter for a moment: this summer, completely on her own initiative, she did quite a bit of supplemental math work that her teacher sent home over the summer. She also noticeably improved in her reading ability over the summer, with no parental coaxing aside from continuing to read to her on a regular basis. This year, as a first grader, she has decided that she is going to start an after-school art club. She has recruited a number of other students who want to participate and is working with one of the teachers at AS#1 who is going to help her, and now she is deciding what sorts of projects they could do. I don't think any of this would have happened if she didn't go to a school that 1) is a place she loves to go to, and 2) is a place that is willing to support her ideas and initiative. I would hope that the traditional schools can create this same love of learning and love of being at school and support for the ideas of children, but the anecdotal evidence at times is not encouraging.<BR/><BR/>I have absolutely nothing against parents who desire a traditional school for their children and for whom the traditional schools serve their needs well.<BR/><BR/>What I find discouraging is parents who have had a bad experience with alternative schools and consequently have the attitude that because alternative schools didn't work for them, there must be no value in them. On the other hand, some alternative school parents who have been burned by traditional schools are guilty of exactly the same thing, only it is the traditional schools they see as having no value. The strength of Seattle Public Schools is not that we have alternative schools, or traditional schools, but it is that we have both, and a wise parent can find the environment that works for their children.Roy Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16120444973792909383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-76062732632268694332007-10-05T14:54:00.000-07:002007-10-05T14:54:00.000-07:00"She has made many, many friends during her first ..."She has made many, many friends during her first month at school, including several children with behavioral challenges"<BR/><BR/>This is exactly what I posted in my above entry. alternative schools attract many more kids with behavioral challenges. This is an issue when the numbers are disproportionate. The classroom environment deteriorates. It is also an issue as the behavior is not addressed directly or firmly in alternative schools, and if these children do not receive intervention, as they get older, the behaviors become self destructive. I have witnessed this at our school and it is much more difficult to deal with in the teenage years than early on.<BR/><BR/>"Extra time is given to finish a particularly exciting book or writing assignment. The children have voice in what they study"<BR/><BR/>All of this freedom, leeway, and special accommodation does not do a child any favors when they move on to Middle and high school. All of a sudden they have firm deadlines, have teachers that will not accept late work, tons of homework, tests and quizzes, grades and report cards, and little voice in their assignments. My child was ill prepared for Middle school and is literally having to learn all of this stuff now. It is a tragedy really.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-21772786485713163292007-10-05T13:39:00.000-07:002007-10-05T13:39:00.000-07:00I just read the question from 'no more alternative...I just read the question from 'no more alternative schools' and want to answer that as well. You wrote "Beth, why didn't your kids do well in the "several well respected traditional schools" that they attended??"<BR/><BR/>I should clarify that according to every school measure, they did quite well. They excelled academically, they were well-behaved, they completed all their homework, they made friends, and their teachers enjoyed having them in class.<BR/><BR/>What I meant was they weren't happy and engaged in the learning and the community. What I want from a school is for it to challenge my children, academically and socially, helping them pursue their interests and passions as they build core academic skills. <BR/><BR/>I don't want to have my kids in a school where, for whatever reason, they don't enjoy being there and don't feel like they are learning anything meaningful or interesting.<BR/><BR/>My daughter who struggled the most in kindergarten with a curriculum that moved children through the same material at the same pace, now comes home excitedly reciting Shakespeare soliloquies. My other 3rd grader shouts "yes!" when she hears it's time for Writer's Workshop at school and spends time after school making signs that say "Poetry Rocks!" Extra time is given to finish a particularly exciting book or writing assignment. The children have voice in what they study, and their teachers are truly amazing.<BR/><BR/>My youngest, who just started Kindergarten this year, had never attended 5 full days of school in her life before, and yet has never once said she doesn't want to go to school this year. She has made many, many friends during her first month at school, including several children with behavioral challenges who she accepts completely and joins in celebrating their successes, as an amazing group of 24 kindergarteners beings to form their community.<BR/><BR/>This is my idea of a school that works for my children and my family.Beth Bakemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16827919509722526726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-3703173021491014012007-10-05T13:23:00.000-07:002007-10-05T13:23:00.000-07:00Nope, not including pre-schools. My daughters went...Nope, not including pre-schools. My daughters went to one school for kindergarten, a different one for first grade, and then finally Pathfinder for 2nd & 3rd grade where they will hopefully stay through 8th grade.<BR/><BR/>I am not an advocate of children changing schools frequently, especially since I am a strong believer in the value of community and belonging. But I also believe every situation is different and, unless you're part of it, it's hard to know and understand why it might have happened.<BR/><BR/>When I was considering changing schools, parents and teachers told me all sorts of things like "You're being unrealistic about what you can expect from a public school", "If you want theme-based learning and a place where the love of learning and discovery is emphasized more than test scores, you should take your kids to private school" and "You'll never be happy no matter what school your kids are at." But I couldn't stand having my children, who love learning, not enjoying school, so I had to do what I thought was best.<BR/><BR/>In our case, one of my two daughters had a major learning style/learning needs clash with the dominant teaching style and culture at the Kindergarten, and cried <B>every day</B> before school for the first seven months because she didn't want to go to school. The second school we chose knowing that it wasn't a great match for our family (for a variety of reasons I'd rather not explain), but we did not have other options in our cluster that seemed better and thought the closeness and ability to walk to it would make it okay.<BR/><BR/>When that wasn't a great success either (for both children), we finally decided to move our girls to Pathfinder. The school had interested us from the start because of the quality of the teaching, the strength of the community, and the clear, well-defined instructional philosophy. But living in South Seattle, we had wanted to avoid making the drive to West Seattle and back several times a day. <BR/><BR/>We are thrilled with our choice (although not the drive) and, while I wish we had started our older daughters in Pathfinder at Kindergarten, we now see our daughters thriving academically and socially. <BR/><BR/>I would tell any parent to do the same thing I did --- listen to your kids, take their concerns seriously, and if necessary when things don't improve over time, explore other options for schools.Beth Bakemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16827919509722526726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-70594402281580956472007-10-05T09:10:00.000-07:002007-10-05T09:10:00.000-07:00Re Beth's "several well-respected traditional scho...Re Beth's "several well-respected traditional schools", I always shudder when I hear someone say or imply they've moved their children multiple times - sure, once can be essential if they're in the wrong place or if you've moved, or changed jobs, or something - but more than one time seems to be more about the parents than the child. It's hard to imagine that it isn't taking a toll - or creating an opportunity cost at best.<BR/><BR/>I know of a family where the kids have hardly attended the same school two years in a row, or with each other (when they could). Eek<BR/><BR/>Maybe Beth is including preschools, too.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-91010420265406957042007-10-05T07:08:00.000-07:002007-10-05T07:08:00.000-07:00Beth, why didn't your kids do well in the "several...Beth, why didn't your kids do well in the "several well respected traditional schools" that they attended??<BR/><BR/>I am curious because this is what I mentioned in my earlier post, and this is what happened at our alternative school. In abundance. Many kids who didn't make it in a traditional setting (usually due to behavior issue or learning disability) came to our alternative school thinking it was a softer landing. And for some it was. Little homework, fewer rules, much lower academic expectations, etc. <BR/><BR/><BR/>I am curious as to your situation with your kids not doing well at several well respected traditional schools. If it is not to personal would you be willing to share?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-49817116636315593462007-10-04T20:19:00.000-07:002007-10-04T20:19:00.000-07:00no more...thanks for your comments. what alternat...no more...<BR/><BR/>thanks for your comments. what alternative schools did you attend and when?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-48411507357899674432007-10-04T14:13:00.000-07:002007-10-04T14:13:00.000-07:00I was looking for a school that supported my child...I was looking for a school that supported my child's social/emotional growth and at the same time offered rigorous academics. I guess I was just asking for way to much. The sad thing is neither of these two needs were met. We found that the lack of rules and lack of enforcement for the few rules there were, coupled with fairly loose parenting, made for some pretty rude, self centered, and sometimes mean spirited children. Many families chose the school or transferred to the school because they feared their children would not make it in a traditional setting, usually due to a behavior issue or learning disability. When you have a disproportionate amount of these types of students (our school did) the classroom environment takes a sharp dive both on a social level and on an academic level. At the middle school level these children began to show a lot of self destructive behaviors. It was actually getting scary. As for academics, we are still playing catch up. The focus at our school was just not on rigor. The focus was more on inquiry and self expression. The school also inflated the grades. As long as the teacher felt you "tried" you got an A. Now that my child is in a traditional program where work is actually graded and there are tests and quizzes, we realize how very far behind and how much catch up we will have to do. How could they be where the traditional schools are?? They spent very little time actually in their classrooms and a whole lot of time hanging out and just generally goofing off. It was a mess. <BR/><BR/>Maybe the schools jsut didn't meet OUR expectations. Maybe their are parents out their who want their kids to have an easy ride? Who don't want homework? Who don't want true assessments, tests, quizzes? Maybe this actually works for some families? Not us. <BR/><BR/>I am speaking particularly of AS1, Summit and Salmon Bay.<BR/><BR/>Not sure about Pathfinder, maybe it is better than the rest? TOPS and AEII seem to hold their own too.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-40159623066435985232007-10-04T12:25:00.000-07:002007-10-04T12:25:00.000-07:00It is difficult to respond to multiple anonymous p...It is difficult to respond to multiple anonymous posters. One of them puts the responsibility for academic failure with the student and writes that the student would have failed regardless of the school, then another (or is it the same one again?) shifts the definition of failure and links it to consequences rather than duties.<BR/><BR/>It's really easy to make up a name on the spot to facilitate discussion. Choosing not to use an identifier - even an anonymous one - indicates a preference for making discussion difficult. What sort of perverse pleasure could you get from trolling in this way?Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-20486755350589505462007-10-04T10:39:00.000-07:002007-10-04T10:39:00.000-07:00There are parents who will swear that attending ...There are parents who will swear that attending an alternative school saved their child and others who find nothing good happening there. An interesting question would be, what were parents who chose and alternative and then left it looking for in the first place? What made them think the alternative school would provide the special something they thought their child needed? Personally, I think it's very hard to know, when selecting a kindergarten, what that same child may need 1, 2, or 3 years from now. <BR/><BR/>I agree with an earlier comment - maybe parents have just too high an expectation in assuming that a school will be able to meet all their child's needs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-78003915109860331932007-10-04T10:31:00.000-07:002007-10-04T10:31:00.000-07:00Anonymous, I strenously disagree with your comment...Anonymous, I strenously disagree with your comment that "Unfortunately, alternative schools (with few exceptions) are just not doing their jobs. TOPS and AEII do OK, but the rest are so focused on their philosophy that academics seem to take a back road."<BR/><BR/>We are at Pathinder K-8 after trying several other well-respected traditional schools. And we are <B>completely thrilled</B> with the quality of teaching and learning that is happening there for our three children.<BR/><BR/>Not all alternative schools are the same. Not all children (and parents) want or need the same things from a school.Beth Bakemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16827919509722526726noreply@blogger.com