tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post8201174422806219221..comments2024-03-28T02:21:17.452-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Board Discussion of Garfield SettlementMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger76125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-69716725384844934382014-10-20T12:11:32.995-07:002014-10-20T12:11:32.995-07:00Well, I think we have covered this issue. People ...Well, I think we have covered this issue. People may have differing opinions. <br /><br />I do find it interesting that people who get the loudest, the angriest and the least clear in their rationale, are always the ones who won't sign their names.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-27017122070253226322014-10-20T11:57:46.185-07:002014-10-20T11:57:46.185-07:00Sure let's not acknowledge your smear campaign...Sure let's not acknowledge your smear campaign to the detriment of the male student. <br /><br />I can usually gauge the guilt of a person by the effort they put into trying to twist and explain away their actions. <br /><br />Charlie you are surpassing 2500 words, most after you said you where DONE talking about it.<br /><br />Jury finds for the plaintiff!<br /><br />Justice Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-47168352576239412912014-10-20T11:29:56.692-07:002014-10-20T11:29:56.692-07:00Charlie,
Your definition of both consent and rape...Charlie,<br /><br />Your definition of both consent and rape are consistent with Washington State Law.<br /><br />Under RCW 9A.44.010, "Consent means that at the time of the act of sexual intercourse or sexual contact there are actual words or conduct indicating freely given agreement to have sexual intercourse or sexual contact."<br /><br />Under RCW 9A.44.060, "A person is guilty of rape in the third degree when, under circumstances not constituting rape in the first or second degrees, such person engages in sexual intercourse with another person where the victim did not consent as defined in RCW 9A.44.010 to sexual intercourse with the perpetrator and such lack of consent was clearly expressed by the victim's words or conduct."<br /><br />Let's not undermine the importance of this by pretending that Charlie's standards of consent are somehow different than the law - they aren't.Lawnotopinionnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-55103927400466171772014-10-20T10:34:53.166-07:002014-10-20T10:34:53.166-07:00Okay, let's clear this up once and for all.
B...Okay, let's clear this up once and for all.<br /><br />By my standards for consent, there is no consent when one of the parties says "No" or "Stop".<br /><br />The fact that the girl said "No" and said "Stop" is not disputed. Got that? She said "Stop" and he acknowledged that she said "Stop".<br /><br />So - by my standards for consent - it was withdrawn. He proceeded without consent, which is rape.<br /><br />Like it or not, that's what rape is: sexual contact that includes penetration without consent.<br /><br />So, for clarity's sake: yes, I am saying that the boy is a rapist. I say that based on his own account of the event.<br /><br />I acknowledge that he's not been charged and certainly not been convicted. That doesn't change the fact that, by my standards, he is a self-confessed rapist.<br /><br />Others may have different standards for consent. That's their choice. Others may have different standards for evidence. That's their choice as well. For me, I'm comfortable with my standard of consent and I'm comfortable with taking the boy's word for what happened.<br /><br />So I'll acknowledge that I have said that what the boy attests to have done is rape. There. Now that's settled. So what? Who cares?<br /><br />Let's move on from that trivia to what's important. What's important is not whether I think it was rape or not or whether I say it was rape or not. What's important is how the school district responded to a report of rape. What's important is how the rules and procedures were not followed at any point in this episode. What's important is that no one has been held accountable for all of those broken rules and violated procedures.<br /><br />The idea that anyone can read all of the material on this blog about the event and come away with nothing but the concern that I wrote that there was a rape reflects a myopia beyond belief. The concern that such statements somehow harm the anonymous boy is beyond absurd. Seriously, if that's your concern then our priorities are irreconcilably different.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-60585349592600222542014-10-20T09:55:07.184-07:002014-10-20T09:55:07.184-07:00Signing Off, are you sayingif we had consistently ...Signing Off, are you sayingif we had consistently said "alleged rape," you would have been fine or just using the word "rape?"<br /><br />No, Charlie did not call anyone names- he used an analogy to make a point.<br /><br />Last time, this blog did NOT link to any document that outed either victim or accused. A reader did.<br /><br /><br /><br />Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-63506465417708495812014-10-20T09:03:09.567-07:002014-10-20T09:03:09.567-07:00Charlie,
At what point did you decide to call a m...Charlie,<br /><br />At what point did you decide to call a minor rapist? Why would you call a minor a rapist without seeing the Federal Investigative report etc.? Do you think your actions did not impact the community? Why would you cast individuals wanting to read investigative reports as peeping Toms? Perhaps to deflect attention away from yourself?<br /><br />We can agree that an event happened on a field trip that should have never happened, and I'm not defending anyone.<br /><br />You consistently want the district to take responsibility and there is truth to that. However, it appears you do not have the ability to take responsibility for yourself and you have lost a lot of credibility.<br /><br />This blog consistently called the NatureBridge incident a rape. It appears you are comfortable calling an incident a rape without having confidential information.<br /><br />Your arguments ring hollow and your attempts to cast individuals in a certain light is beyond unattractive. In addition to calling an individual a rapist, you've moved on to call readers names.<br /><br />Signing off.<br /><br /><br /><br />Wownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-16465406636904008662014-10-20T03:50:44.086-07:002014-10-20T03:50:44.086-07:00I am not interested in every sordid detail from th...I am not interested in every sordid detail from that night. That's correct. I do not regard the words "forced sodomy" to be particularly detailed. "Forced sodomy" was the accusation and it was widely available from other sources before I wrote it. <br /><br />None of us will ever know the full story. Moreover, none of us has any business knowing the full story and it's creepy that anyone wants to know the full story. I certainly don't. It is by no means a shame that we won't have the opportunity to know it. It would shameful if we did.<br /><br />If anyone found the boy's name they did it by looking for the boy's name. If anyone has any details about what happened that night they learned them by seeking them out. This is like a peeping tom accusing their victim of flashing. You go looking for information and then you dare to be shocked - shocked! - that you found it? Well, you didn't find it here.<br /><br />That's on you.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-2419440264632438172014-10-19T22:45:30.556-07:002014-10-19T22:45:30.556-07:00"None of us will ever know the full story. Th..."None of us will ever know the full story. That would only have come to light through the course of litigation."<br /><br />No, you are wrong. We would have heard both stories. That does NOT mean we know the full story. We would know the story that each person would tell. The jury (or judge) would have to figure out which story they believed. But the truth? No, no one will ever know.<br /><br />Charlie can answer for himself but I had seen documentation that the hospital felt, after examining the girl, that what she was accusing the boy of was possible but, of course, that's not definitive.<br /><br />Look, you can keep going on with these questions but it seems clear that you have not read everything. Why keep asking Charlie if he has?<br /><br />"I found the boy's name on documents that were linked to from this blog."<br /><br />Could you tell me the date and name of that thread? Because no one else seems to know and I don't either.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-9694773453645410062014-10-19T22:34:04.375-07:002014-10-19T22:34:04.375-07:00Good point mosfet. BTW I have scanned every Garf...Good point mosfet. BTW I have scanned every Garfield doc I posted and did not see that a photo was posted of the male student. Various versions had been posted on the family's Facebook page - perhaps it was there. Either way I'm glad docs were posted otherwise all we would know is the English/Kaiser version of events and I would be blithely signing away the district's duty to keep my student safe. That's worth it to me. And if I was afraid of being sued I wouldn't be such a pain in the ass, I guess.mirmac1https://www.blogger.com/profile/10183460709639638172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-49372866591022215252014-10-19T21:46:07.934-07:002014-10-19T21:46:07.934-07:00@Lynn
Thanks for letting us know about the Unifor...@Lynn<br /><br />Thanks for letting us know about the Uniform Correction or Clarification of Defamation Act!<br /><br />@Howdy<br /><br />Do you expect Charlie and Melissa to carefully read through every single document linked to by a commenter? Particularly given that the information in the links may change over time? Also, from my reading of the <a href="http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/immunity-online-publishers-under-communications-decency-act" rel="nofollow">Communications Decency Act</a>, I'm pretty sure that they are protected from any liability for comments on this blog.<br /><br />I still don't know who the boy is.mosfetnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-83298868241268444722014-10-19T21:37:40.276-07:002014-10-19T21:37:40.276-07:00Howdy, Howdy2, Goose/Gander, Justice, et al.,
We ...Howdy, Howdy2, Goose/Gander, Justice, et al.,<br /><br />We get it. You are very unhappy that various people (and I was one of them) referred to the male student in the NatureBridge incident as a rapist rather than an alleged rapist. You feel those people need scolding. You wish they'd get in legal trouble for this (or at least be frightened by that possibility.)<br /><br />You've scolded, you've given (unreliable) warnings about legal repercussions. You're unlikely to convince anyone here to agree with you if they do not already. What are you hoping to accomplish by continuing to comment?<br /><br />Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-14202662151320729812014-10-19T21:13:24.367-07:002014-10-19T21:13:24.367-07:00Washington has a relatively new law the Uniform Co...Washington has a relatively new law the <a href="http://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=7.96" rel="nofollow">Uniform Correction or Clarification of Defamation Act</a>. Before a person can sue for defamation, they must have made a request for correction or clarification of the allegedly defamatory statement. The request must be made in writing, identify the person making the request and state that the defamatory statement is false. It's possible that the male student has made such a request but no one is claiming that happened.<br /><br />If the male student were to sue one of the many people who referred to him as a rapist, his attorney would tell him that in a defamation case <a href="http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/substantial-truth" rel="nofollow"> truth is an absolute defense.</a> A plaintiff has to provide convincing evidence of a defamatory statement's falsity in order to prove defamation.<br /><br />In mirmac1's example, if the news organization were sued for defamation, both the truthfulness defense and the <a href="http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/defamation-privileges-and-defenses" rel="nofollow"> fair report privilege would apply</a>.Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-7161855350128797502014-10-19T20:42:28.621-07:002014-10-19T20:42:28.621-07:00Mr. Mas,
You say you are not interested in every ...Mr. Mas,<br /><br />You say you are not interested in every sordid detail from that night.<br /><br />On September 8th, on this blog, you described what happened that night as "forced sodomy."<br /><br />Is that a detail you were interested in? Do you think there might be other "sordid details"?<br /><br />What did you read and/or who did you talk to that led you to conclude that what occurred was "forced sodomy"? <br /><br />Or did you just guess that is what occurred?<br /><br />None of us will ever know the full story. That would only have come to light through the course of litigation. When the parties and witnesses could be subjected to cross examination. When all the documents (FBI Reports, Medical reports, diaries, notes, emails...all of it) would be disclosed. <br /><br />It's a shame that we won't have the opportunity.<br /><br />In any event, Mr. Mas, climb down off your high horse. The district is not nearly has "lawless" as you think it is.<br /><br />I read "forced sodomy" on this blog. I found the boy's name on documents that were linked to from this blog.<br /><br />That's on you.Howdynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-60808376900905187412014-10-19T20:36:50.422-07:002014-10-19T20:36:50.422-07:00Mr. Mas,
You say you are not interested in every ...Mr. Mas,<br /><br />You say you are not interested in every sordid detail from that night.<br /><br />On September 8th, on this blog, you described what happened that night as "forced sodomy."<br /><br />Is that a detail you were interested in? Do you think there might be other "sordid details"?<br /><br />What did you read and/or who did you talk to that led you to conclude that what occurred was "forced sodomy"? <br /><br />Or did you just guess that is what occurred?<br /><br />None of us will ever know the full story. That would only have come to light through the course of litigation. When the parties and witnesses could be subjected to cross examination. <br /><br />It's a shame that we won't have the opportunity.<br /><br />In any event, Mr. Mas, climb down off your high horse. The district is not nearly has "lawless" as you think it is.<br /><br />I read "forced sodomy" on this blog. I found the boy's name on documents that were linked to from this blog.<br /><br />That's on you.Howdynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-78186207328847710512014-10-19T19:20:59.688-07:002014-10-19T19:20:59.688-07:00So that was a bit of a dilemma on deleting that la...So that was a bit of a dilemma on deleting that last comment.<br /><br />The blog guidelines are that we do NOT out people. Not you, not Charlie or me. <br /><br />That it was videotape makes it worse.<br /><br />Look, if you suspect someone uses multiple names here, you can say that without naming names. If you think you know who people are, fine but don't share it here.<br /><br />We need everyone to feel comfortable is what they say. They won't if they feel others are trying to out them to silence or harm them.<br /><br />Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-89564198571109169592014-10-19T18:22:17.786-07:002014-10-19T18:22:17.786-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-6261921525075476262014-10-19T17:26:18.190-07:002014-10-19T17:26:18.190-07:00I have diligently read all the comments on multipl...<br />I have diligently read all the comments on multiple threads about this incident. I am very interested because I have often been a chaperone on overnight school trips for middle school & high school. I have participated in various systems of bed checks, room checks, night-time rounds. Never were chaperones allowed to sleep in the room with students except their own kid. I understood this is because of possible sexual harassment from a chaperone. I have never heard any policy from the district dictating a system of night supervision. It seemed to be a case of "this is what previous chaperones have done." <br /><br />In all the comments on this blog, I haven't seen the names of any students. I don't believe they were posted here. I did not follow links to documents on scribd because I am not really interested in learning about the specifics of what went on in the cabin. I believe it must have been something horrible for a student to have ended up in an in-patient mental health facility. But really just the case that something horrible could have happened should be enough to to scare the daylights out of us. <br /><br />As a chaperone I believe that we really do need to talk about this and other incidents that have been quickly hidden by the district.(One hears rumors.) Because we need to learn from them. No student needs to be named because of that. I am furious that we chaperones have gone 2 years without improved district guidance because the district was too busy protecting itself and was willing to continue to have students at risk. It seems obvious to me that we needed to be very loud about this if there is to be any change.<br /><br />-HS ParentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-78621145788599243092014-10-19T15:00:52.531-07:002014-10-19T15:00:52.531-07:00@Goose/Gander
"Will YOU also take responsibi...@Goose/Gander<br /><br />"Will YOU also take responsibility for making veiled suggestions for the public to find a board director's home?"<br /><br />Actually, Charlie specifically told people <b>not</b> to do that and explained why protesting a board member's house would be a bad idea, and explicitly said that he would delete any comment that listed a board member's address.mosfetnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-16899875775371068942014-10-19T14:29:33.147-07:002014-10-19T14:29:33.147-07:00Howdy2, don't use a similar name, okay? Too c...Howdy2, don't use a similar name, okay? Too confusing. You said:<br /><br />..they used an incident that predates NatureBridge to do so."<br /><br />This was in the report that I saw. That this boy started sexual activity at an early age is something that they had to consider. It doesn't make him a rapist.<br /><br />Dragged President Peaslee thru the mud? Not me and I'm struggling to think of what was said that would be in that category. I know a lot of people disagree with her stance. Her latest words were mostly about the boy and not about the district. It's worth asking why not? <br /><br />I'm sure a good lawyer with an investigator could figure out who released the photo/name. But it was not this blog. <br /><br />Fred, you would never get to see the hospital report. Those are confidential. <br /><br />Sorry, no, if you listen to the tape, Mr. English cites three factors and one of them is court costs.<br />Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-83080589289423742202014-10-19T13:07:12.906-07:002014-10-19T13:07:12.906-07:00But I thought the whole second victim thing was &q...But I thought the whole second victim thing was "innocent until proven guilty". He is innocent, yet he is on the news? Can he sue? Doubt it.mirmac1https://www.blogger.com/profile/10183460709639638172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-34087485110050588702014-10-19T10:49:49.733-07:002014-10-19T10:49:49.733-07:00Wasn't a big reason for the settlement a consi...Wasn't a big reason for the settlement a consideration of the costs of defense? Not the potential trial outcome. <br /><br />Sorrynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-28780338628493278472014-10-19T10:24:30.722-07:002014-10-19T10:24:30.722-07:00Mirimac's article indicates the boy was charge...Mirimac's article indicates the boy was charged with rape. <br /><br />Chargednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-39013975704245986872014-10-19T09:50:08.281-07:002014-10-19T09:50:08.281-07:00I am curious how the points raised in this article...I am curious how the points raised in this article apply in this case:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Hoquiam-football-player-accused-of-rapes-removes-self-from-team-279321132.html" rel="nofollow">Komo News: Hoquiam football player accused of rape leaves team</a><br /><br />I wonder if he is being called a victim. I wonder if the "many parents'" anger was labelled hysteria by their school board president. Is KOMO concerned about being sued? mirmac1https://www.blogger.com/profile/10183460709639638172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-33072044646003067212014-10-19T09:16:15.649-07:002014-10-19T09:16:15.649-07:00"Charlie, unlike you, isn't interested in..."Charlie, unlike you, isn't interested in every sordid detail of what happened between the boy and the girl that night."<br /><br />Really, you called the boy a rapist. Will YOU take responsibility for such an accusation? Will YOU also take responsibility for making veiled suggestions for the public to find a board director's home?Goose/Gandernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-23180985646425881382014-10-19T09:09:55.904-07:002014-10-19T09:09:55.904-07:00Materials released were cherry picked. We never sa...Materials released were cherry picked. We never saw the FBI report. In hospital settings, a physician, nurse and social worker would have evaluated the situation and we have not seen those documents.<br /><br />IMO the public attention brought to this issue contributed to a $700K settlement and we don't know what happened. I am not saying a rape did not happen, either.Frednoreply@blogger.com