tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post8220214613692881135..comments2024-03-28T02:21:17.452-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: UW and TFA - Part Two (Let the Right One In)Melissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger57125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-64135420427751418202011-05-25T18:16:50.183-07:002011-05-25T18:16:50.183-07:00Charlie: you are probably right. But I couldn'...Charlie: you are probably right. But I couldn't figure out why, with all those Republicans running the federal government, government spending kept going UP -- not DOWN (like all those limited gov types would be expected to make it do). When I thought about it, I realized that the tax cuts (which we borrowed money for) went largely to the top earners. Ok, that made sense for the Republicans. But then I realized that huge amounts of $$ for the two wars ALSO went to wealthy Republicans, through ordinary defense spending (planes, drones, bullets, etc.) but ALSO through contracts with Blackwater/Xe and others. And the same was true of the big Medicare increase. Much of it went to private companies providing supplemental plans, drugs, etc. Big business doesn't seem to care if government is limited -- or if budgets balance, as long as the (borrowed) dollars are flowing to big business.<br /><br />Similary, the unholy alliance between the Democrats currently running the DoE and the Republicans seems to mean that dollars keep flowing to ed reform, because those dollars don't go to kids, they go to Big Ed (sister to Big Pharma).Janhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09923777229601243321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-4338495626704991092011-05-24T17:06:38.966-07:002011-05-24T17:06:38.966-07:00I think there are two goals. One is to pay less on...I think there are two goals. One is to pay less on education (reduce personal and corporate expenses for the wealthy), the other is to funnel more money to corporate interests (increase private revenues for the wealthy).Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-50432146876785072882011-05-24T16:16:57.073-07:002011-05-24T16:16:57.073-07:00Peon: I am not sure that the "goal" is t...Peon: I am not sure that the "goal" is to spend less on education. The "goal" in the case of ed companies, is to spend less on the public side (teachers being the highest cost) so that there is more available to pay for tests, textbooks (with annual consumables -- so you "re-pay" for them every year), consultants, management companies, etc. -- all the stuff that the private side provides. The bottom line stays the same, or maybe even rises -- but the dollars flow to very different pockets. It is not very different from the military, cutting expenses, but paying Blackwater, Xe, Halliburton, etc. billions and billions of dollars. The dollars don't change (or maybe they increase), but the money goes out of the pockets of soldiers and public employees, and into the hands of the employees, management, and shareholders of the private companies.<br /><br />Taxpayers have to decide where they want tax dollars to go -- and they need to insist that the public "servants" who spend those dollars spend them wisely. We don't have that now. <br /><br />The taxpayers need toJanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09923777229601243321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-75470591345830929102011-05-23T21:23:35.473-07:002011-05-23T21:23:35.473-07:00Peon and Seattle Citizen: Some of what is happeni...Peon and Seattle Citizen: Some of what is happening, I think, is that for-profit entities in the education field have figured out that there isn't enough money "available" for education to keep the current cost structure AND pay them to provide the goods and services that they want to provide. <br />One way to "free up" dollars to pay for math consumables, MAP testing, consultants, charter school managers, computer software to "run" STEM programs, etc. is to come up with a solution that moves dollars AWAY from one of the current major expenditures -- teacher salaries for experienced, committed teachers -- and into the pockets of the for-profit (or quasi-for profit) education companies. If you could figure out a way to pay ALL the teachers no more than $35 to $40,000 per year -- that frees up a lot of money to pay the annual TFA "finders" fee, the costs of providing all that support, the costs of annual consumables for text books that have been structured to require huge additional annual fees in order to function, etc. It is the same with the annual MAP test, the annual fee for the computer "platform" to run STEM, and other similar stuff. It doesn't cost NEARLY what we shell out to get GOOD math materials in front of kids, to run a STEM program, or to periodically quiz kids to figure out whether your teaching methods are working or whether they need to be adjusted. But we don't look for cost-effective measures that work. Instead, we are enriching a lot of ed reform CEOs, shareholders, textbook publishers, educational consultants, and others.Janhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09923777229601243321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-7339518522060767942011-05-23T16:06:05.852-07:002011-05-23T16:06:05.852-07:00Melissa, I think Peon was merely fleshing out my c...Melissa, I think Peon was merely fleshing out my comment, questioning whether TFA would be cheaper. Peon didn't seem to be neglecting the cost of churn, actually, quite the opposite, Peon was suggesting that the churn WAS a cost?<br /><br />My point is that in the long run, edu-business might not care about that cost, that identically trained edu-bots might be stood in front of a class, mouth identical edu-speak, then be replaced with another edu-bot. Some people might think this makes sense: Standardized data doesn't recognize relationship or any o' that pap: It's all about the script, and script readers can be swapped at will. Untrained TFAers can likewise be replaced: If they do't need training, then what's the problem? Any ol' body will do.<br /><br />YOu (and Peon) are stuck in the old days, when we were actually trying to give students a rich and varied edcuation that treated them like individuals. That's old-school. The costs to the student (and to real teachers) of the "churn" of TFA only matters if one cares about that old-school stuff. In the new paradigm, it's a production line, it's cheap, it's data-driven, and the parts are interchangeable. "Relationship" is a costly luxury that is to be done away with.seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-16628808240522358782011-05-23T13:24:26.486-07:002011-05-23T13:24:26.486-07:00C'mon Peon, is money the only thing?
What a...C'mon Peon, is money the only thing? <br /><br />What about stability? Have you ever noticed that a stable teaching corps at a school makes I difference? I have. Sometimes they can get complacent but mostly, it's like a well-oiled machine. <br /><br />Also, kids recognize teachers over time and look forward to having Mr. So and So for 4th grade. Having an (almost) constant churn of teachers moving in and out isn't good for any school or its population.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-79813930361896490762011-05-22T19:26:30.230-07:002011-05-22T19:26:30.230-07:00Peon, I haven't done an analysis. In the short...Peon, I haven't done an analysis. In the short term, it might be a wash in terms of costs. What I believe is happening is the deprofessionalizing of the craft of teaching, the diminishment of its worth: "A five-week trainee can do it!" and "Those young ones bring energy and passion!"<br />I suspect that those who count beans figured out that if they could set it up so that we merely had a bunch of warm bodies in the position for two years, then out they go, that there would be big cost savings.<br /><br />It would be cheaper to hire a bunch of warm bodies every two years than pay the high cost of a professional with thirty years experience.<br /><br />If you make teaching into mere instructing, then you can pay the instructors less, expect less (mere data) and cycle them through like cord wood. We've already removed the certificate as requistite; now, any ol' body can fill the teacher's chair.seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-80037780781749761922011-05-22T18:13:14.791-07:002011-05-22T18:13:14.791-07:00SC, have you done an analysis on whether senior te...SC, have you done an analysis on whether senior teacher cost the district more than the constant churn of TFA recruits? Besides the, what is it $4000 (??) placement fee that comes with a TFA recruit, there are the costs associated with the constant churn of new hires every couple of years? It would be interesting to see the costs compared. Not so sure TFA is actually cheaper in the long run?anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-72966737694515913132011-05-22T18:11:48.124-07:002011-05-22T18:11:48.124-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-32470735038450347052011-05-22T17:12:43.167-07:002011-05-22T17:12:43.167-07:00" And I just don't get entrusting the edu..." And I just don't get entrusting the education of these kids to someone without sufficient training."<br /><br />It's cheaper to hire TFAs on rotating basis, rather than hold onto professionals who require more money as they get more experience.<br /><br />TFA is the new model of deprofessionalized educator: Qucik to train, young, eager, disposable...after two or three years they move on into "leadership" somewhere else (THAT is the part I don't get - how many "edu-leader" jobs can they create?) and the district simply hires a new batch of cheap warm bodies.seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-28340925066925099262011-05-22T15:48:27.253-07:002011-05-22T15:48:27.253-07:00Not to belabor the point, but the PA/MD analogy fo...Not to belabor the point, but the PA/MD analogy for TFA is not apt because PAs are not independent practitioners. That is, they work in conjunction with physicians, under a legally binding collaborative practice agreement that sets out the terms of what they can and cannot do. A PA does not simply set up shop in an office and start seeing and treating patients. They treat patients who are ultimately under the care of someone with an MD degree.<br /><br />Like PS Mom, I have worked with some outstanding PAs, and we will as a society be relying on them and nurse practitioners more in the future to provide a lot of the basic day-to-day care that does not require a physician's expertise. But that said, when it comes to diagnosis and managing difficult cases, that's the MD's job. That is why the PA/MD relationship is always collaborative, not competitive.<br /><br />TFA would be like a PA setting up a competing private practice next door to the doctor but never having to consult or work with that doctor. I would not go to that PA, but I certainly would see one that my own physician hired and entrusted specifics duties to.<br /><br />Back to TFA, if it were a collaborative model in which recruits honed a skill under the guidance of a teacher, that might work. If there were a teacher shortage, a TFA recruit could perhaps teach a lesson that an actual teacher had developed. The recruit could work with groups of children while the actual teacher focused on specific children with specific needs. The teacher would develop an IEP for each child, and perhaps the TFA recruit would help implement it. But the TFA recruit would not be in charge of a classroom on her own after 5 weeks. There is simply too much that she does not yet know, and worse, some of these recruits will not know that there are things they don't know!<br /><br />There's a saying in medical education that when you hear hoofbeats, think about horses, not zebras. Usually, this applies to the over-eager medical student who wants to show off all that he knows or perhaps is scared of making a mistake and orders every test out there. So this is a reminder to look for obvious problems first.<br /><br />But, the truth of the matter is that that medical student knows that zebras exist. He may see a lot of horses in daily practice, and maybe a PA can manage those horses freeing him up for other tasks, but with proper education and experience, the doctor learns when to look for zebras. <br /><br />The thing with TFA is that without that foundation in education, be it educational theory, best practices, or simply time on the job working with a variety of students, they simply cannot be expected to find the zebras. They can probably be taught enough about horses in 5 weeks to get by, but every classroom has its zebras. Heck, there are probably more zebras in a school than there are in a doctor's clinic each week! And I just don't get entrusting the education of these kids to someone without sufficient training.Lorihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07777580098975083499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-85131795036141069282011-05-22T14:32:32.816-07:002011-05-22T14:32:32.816-07:00Peon,
You may not have much choice in the future ...Peon, <br />You may not have much choice in the future as more baby boomers age and there are fewer primary care physicians available. (Not to mention our escalating health care cost.) You may have to see a PA or a NP for well care or minor urgent care in clinics and hospitals. There is a growing shortage of family practice physicians. Google it and the numbers are there. You have lots of specialst MDs and they are expensive. Many NPs and PAs do specialized after receiving more years of training depending on their specialty. <br /><br />Your analogy of TFA and PA is still out of line, IMO, as one who works with PAs and NPs extensively in health care setting and have used them for the care of my family members. They work in our best hospitals (Swedish, UW, Harborview, Group Health, etc.) and in very large physician practices in Seattle. At the hospital I work in, they have my respect and the respect of many physicians who work with them.<br /><br />PS momAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-17897299252688836712011-05-22T14:02:53.949-07:002011-05-22T14:02:53.949-07:00"Regarding your comments about PA or Physicia..."Regarding your comments about PA or Physician Assistant, you should realize that they require extensive training (at least 2 years on top of a college degree), clinical experience, and stringent state certification before they are allowed to practice as PA." <br /><br />That's great, however, it usually takes at least 11 years to become a doctor: 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school, and 3 years working in a hospital. For some specialties, doctors may have to work in a hospital for up to 8 years before they are trained. That means that a PA gets about 1/4 to 1/2 the training a doctor gets. <br /><br />Of course in an area where doctors were in short supply a PA would be a fantastic option, much like a TFA recruit would be in a district with a severe teacher shortage. But in areas where doctors and teachers are plentiful, I'm going to stick with them.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-66593417587570824872011-05-22T14:00:21.917-07:002011-05-22T14:00:21.917-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-48533992563651417122011-05-22T13:23:47.682-07:002011-05-22T13:23:47.682-07:00To get the TFA and Physician Assistant (PA) analog...To get the TFA and Physician Assistant (PA) analogy right, you need to make TFA training an intensive 2 year program on top of their BA/BS degree (or a 4 year college PA program). Require extensive hands-on internship in schools with veteran teacher mentors like PA programs do with clinical work. Go through state licensure like PA must before they can practice. <br /><br />Most PAs are committed and remain in their career s because it is an expen$ive and very time consuming process. <br /><br />If TFA grads undergo the same training and certification as a PA, then I would be more than happy to have them teach at my kids' schools.<br /><br />PS momAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-41787015273528164052011-05-22T12:11:16.195-07:002011-05-22T12:11:16.195-07:00Peon,
Regarding your comments about PA or Physici...Peon,<br /><br />Regarding your comments about PA or Physician Assistant, you should realize that they require extensive training (at least 2 years on top of a college degree), clinical experience, and stringent state certification before they are allowed to practice as PA. The same goes for Nurse Practictioner (NP). <br /><br />This is a far cry from 5 weeks of TFA training on top of your BA/BS degree. So the analogy you make is off base. <br /><br />Many NP and PA are wonderful healthcare practictioners that work in clinics and hospitals alongside MDs. Like doctors, they are heavily recruited to work in underserved areas, such as rural communities, Indian reservations, and urban public health clinics. <br /><br />-Health care worker and PS momAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-41576494647479596402011-05-22T11:42:26.706-07:002011-05-22T11:42:26.706-07:00"Cap" Peck's positive statements?! ..."Cap" Peck's positive statements?! I heard him say "we should find out why some legislators want to eliminate the master's degree, why some district's are willing to pay $4K to hire these guys?"<br /><br />If that's not a slap in the face, I don't know what is. He had to later correct himself and say Foundations, not districts were paying. He didn't say who or how many legislators made the asinine remark (Rep. Anonymous or maybe Martinez, CA-Sleeps with Kopp)<br /><br />"Cap" was the one spreading misinformation. I'm appalled because his area of expertise is special education. Don't know why we need him when we could get someone with five weeks training to provide the specially-designed instruction some children need.StopTFAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08605108615707039386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-36943173930618488812011-05-22T10:04:33.046-07:002011-05-22T10:04:33.046-07:00When I graduated from college in the late eighties...When I graduated from college in the late eighties and was living in Los Angeles there was such a severe teacher shortage that they were giving emergency certificates to anyone with a bachelor's degree--no training required. In that situation I think that a TFA teacher would have been an improvement and I had always assumed that was why a program like TFA was created.Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16997067799199553809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-7820642143750641642011-05-22T07:56:32.996-07:002011-05-22T07:56:32.996-07:00"I, therefore, don't actually agree with ..."I, therefore, don't actually agree with Charlie -- that TFA is good, but just not for us. "<br /><br />I do agree with Charlie. I think TFA has it's place, just not in SPS. We do not have a teacher shortage. We have PLENTY of qualified teachers applying for every open job. <br /><br />But consider the many districts that do have serious teacher shortages - especially in the math, science, and foreign language sections. There was a time not so long ago when teacher shortages were so severe that teachers were being offered signing bonuses, housing assistance, and employer paid moves as incentives (even right here in Seattle).<br /><br />Some schools were/are forced to hire candidates with emergency or out of field credentials. In other words individuals that have no training as teachers. Or they have classrooms that have revolving subs all year long. <br /><br />In these cases I think a TFA recruit with their 5 weeks training, access to mentors, and continuing education toward a master degree in education, might look like a shining star. Definitely an improvement over a revolving sub, or a French major teaching a Chemistry class IMHO.<br /><br />http://www.alleducationschoo<br />ls.com/education-careers/article/teacher<br />-shortageanonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-56818834166453887962011-05-22T07:32:54.368-07:002011-05-22T07:32:54.368-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-87252374175122653142011-05-22T07:23:20.105-07:002011-05-22T07:23:20.105-07:00Interesting article from the Washington Post on th...Interesting article from the Washington Post on the substantive research around TFA (a response that UW needs to conduct more research). We don't need no more research...we know TFA is not good for kids, districts, or taxpayers:<br /><br />http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer-sheet/teachers/a-new-look-at-teach-for-americ.html<br /><br />-UniversityProfAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-31198553575522566222011-05-22T07:05:07.725-07:002011-05-22T07:05:07.725-07:00Sadly, Josh, many professions have less than quali...Sadly, Josh, many professions have less than qualified individuals working with or in place of qualified individuals.<br /><br />For instance in your example of the medical profession, instead of seeing a doctor/MD you may see a Physicians Assistant/PA. A PA works with autonomy and has a lot od decision making power. They can see you without a doctor present, diagnose you, and recommend treatment (though they can't write prescriptions). Though these PA's have a degree, and have worked in the medical field, they have not attended any medical school. <br /><br />Whenever my doctor, or the boys pediatrician doesn't have an opening I am asked if I would like to see the PA instead. Uh, no, thanks.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-24662340324720490722011-05-21T23:43:31.444-07:002011-05-21T23:43:31.444-07:00I think TFA betrays an underlying contempt for tea...I think TFA betrays an underlying contempt for teaching.<br /><br />Let's say you go to the doctor for a persistent cough, and you're ushered into an exam room, and a nice young lady comes in and tells you, "I'm not a doctor, but I have a degree in economics and five weeks of training, so I'm really just as good as a doctor!" <br /><br />Really? You think so?<br /><br />Oh, well, a doctor, that's a silly example: we all know those people have to go to school for years and years to gain expertise. Fair enough.<br /><br />Let's say your pipes are stopped up. You call a plumber. They send out a nice young lady who tells you, "I have a degree in economics, and five weeks of plumbing training, but I'm every bit as good as a real plumber."<br /><br />Really? You think so?<br /><br />The underlying message of TFA is: teaching isn't a profession. ANYONE can do it. It's all about WANTING to do it. Any nice young woman (or man, of course!) with an economics degree can be every good a teacher as, well... a teacher.<br /><br />Really? You think so?Josh Hayeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17242600011474990770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-34395530203829238122011-05-21T23:06:47.270-07:002011-05-21T23:06:47.270-07:00WAKE UP! WAKE UP! WAKE UP!!!!!!
TFA is not an or...WAKE UP! WAKE UP! WAKE UP!!!!!!<br /><br />TFA is not an organization to train teachers that stay in the classroom. TFA is an organization that does the minimum amount that they have to do to get their people into classrooms and then help them financially while they get their masters degree in some form of administration. Those people then go on to become principals, people high up in the administration of schools, people who gain political clout, and people who become leaders in other areas of education and politics. And guess what they do? They carry on the TFA agenda. <br /><br />This doesn't really have anything to do with teaching. It is about putting the big money and politics behind the scenes at TFA in a position to make the changes in education policy they want made. <br /><br />One of those changes is in the area of multiculturalism. You can see hints of that in the training methods that TFA uses during their summer training period, the way they want all children taught the same way without consideration of their culture or economic status.<br /><br />There are so many more things at stake than simply the schools of Seattle and Federal Way. Once TFA has become established a teaching partnership with a university within a state, they then attempt to procure contracts with every school system within the state.<br /><br />They are like the Energizer Bunny. They keep going and going and going.<br /><br />The Favorite OneAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-37031289990339575812011-05-21T21:25:03.054-07:002011-05-21T21:25:03.054-07:00Inside the Teach for America "Cult"
Apri...<b>Inside the Teach for America "Cult"</b><br />April 7, 2011<br /><br />http://coveringeducation.org/schoolstories11/2011/04/qa-inside-the-teach-for-america-cult/Why TFAnoreply@blogger.com