tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post8370410726240339829..comments2024-03-28T02:21:17.452-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Class SizeMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-91049229170515615442013-08-13T11:59:45.009-07:002013-08-13T11:59:45.009-07:00How much would it cost to reduce class size at eve...How much would it cost to reduce class size at every SPS school to X? We talk about how expensive it is but how much would it be in terms of real dollars, eg increased property tax per household? Or are we already paying for that?<br /><br />CuriousAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-30515038667882924602013-08-12T23:52:09.717-07:002013-08-12T23:52:09.717-07:00At the elementary level I can spend a lot more one...At the elementary level I can spend a lot more one-to-one time with students when my class size is smaller. I moved to this district from another that had caps on class sizes that were much smaller than SPS' and I also had more support in the classroom (IA's for sped students) and more plan time. I have stepped backward in time for a shorter commute. Parents: know that I cannot give as much individual attention and differentiation to your child if my class size increases.<br /><br />Another thing that shocks me is SEA union has only sent out one survey asking me, the teacher, what I want our union leaders to bargain for. Yes, class size is something I want you to fight for, but I'd also like to feel like I have a voice in my union.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-52692344857585492812013-08-11T18:31:49.372-07:002013-08-11T18:31:49.372-07:00Not correct. That so true for contracts with clas...Not correct. That so true for contracts with classified staff. For certificated staff, there is no automatic roll over provision like there is for classified staff.<br /><br />-SWWSAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-63661011829621036862013-08-11T16:22:14.098-07:002013-08-11T16:22:14.098-07:00Teachers, is my understanding correct that if you ...Teachers, is my understanding correct that if you don't reach agreement, your current contract stands for another year?Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-7007175039654202632013-08-11T12:54:09.006-07:002013-08-11T12:54:09.006-07:00Teachers are reliant upon students teaching studen...Teachers are reliant upon students teaching students. I'm tired of my student being used for this purpose and not attending to his own educational needs. <br /><br />FWIW Students aren't the best teachers and they don't always have correct information.Not Happynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-1383664757539488472013-08-11T10:54:03.486-07:002013-08-11T10:54:03.486-07:00Current class size info is spelled out on page 89-...Current class size info is spelled out on page 89-90 of the linked 2010-13 SEA bargaining agreement:<br /><br />http://www.seattlewea.org/static_content/cbacert.pdf<br /><br /><i>The individual teacher will be compensated for any days after October 1st which he/she has an overload.</i><br /><br />just fyiAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-1233996787753208132013-08-11T10:22:17.645-07:002013-08-11T10:22:17.645-07:00Someone brought up a good point about increased cl...Someone brought up a good point about increased class size with increased inclusion. When I was teaching in Seattle I started the year with 31 first graders. 31 6 year olds! My class size eventually dropped down to 25 and I had 4 kiddos with severe behavior issues that seriously impacted learning with no help. On top of harassment from my administrator...and no help from the union (the rep I met with was two hours late to the meeting we had scheduled that I took half a personal day for). Huge classes with kids who need a lot of support with unsupportive admin and weak union reps...talk about stress and burnout.<br /><br />-FormerSPS'er<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-3373643334761703082013-08-11T09:24:54.841-07:002013-08-11T09:24:54.841-07:00There is a lot of talk about the impact of class s...There is a lot of talk about the impact of class size on student learning, as there should be. <br /><br />I wonder if a secondary effect is overlooked: do large class sizes reduce teacher retention by causing burnout? Are teachers lost (whether good, bad or just fine) because of large class loads? Meghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12795753563127975720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-11231745471294052232013-08-11T09:00:51.870-07:002013-08-11T09:00:51.870-07:00Does the SEA contract provide a provision that all...Does the SEA contract provide a provision that allows for teachers to accept increased pay for increased class sizes?Small Classesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-2668837472869233232013-08-10T23:51:40.054-07:002013-08-10T23:51:40.054-07:00the comments of "Teach" 8/10/13, 5:33 PM...the comments of "Teach" 8/10/13, 5:33 PM made me realize that Banda is or has turned into a toady of those liars associated with the gates foundation who have been pushing the 'class size doesn't matter' lie while they send their kids to places like Lakeside for small classes. <br /><br />oh well, now that I think I'm no longer confused about this complex class size issue, I'm going to figure out why that bright yellow thing is in the sky for a while and then it isn't in the sky and then it is back in the sky .......<br /><br />WhatIsLightAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-80804389414078729142013-08-10T23:49:08.879-07:002013-08-10T23:49:08.879-07:00When the few who bothered to vote chose Jonathon K...When the few who bothered to vote chose Jonathon Knapp over Eric Muhs, the SEA membership sent the district a clear message--that the union is apathetic, lacks unity, and supports the status quo (TFA, evaluations based in part on MAP, large class sizes leading to lack of differentiation, etc.)--in a phrase, IS WEAK. SEA also lost respect from parent supporters, who were dismayed by the low turnout and results.<br /><br />Teachers (who comprise most of the membership), I wish you well. But you reap what you sow. <br /><br />--enough alreadyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-49354051172126227982013-08-10T21:54:07.447-07:002013-08-10T21:54:07.447-07:00The extra money is beside the point. Classes that...The extra money is beside the point. Classes that full shouldn't happen. If there are rooms available, hire teachers for them. If there are no rooms and no way to put in portables, hire a qualified aid.<br /><br />The extra money goes to the teacher (if the teacher claims it) but it's the kids who suffer.<br /><br />I do think the teachers should get the modest bonus for overfull classes, mostly because it creates an incentive for SPS to avoid overfull classes, and forces SPS to track how many there are.<br /><br />Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16260807460417787614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-19925612348651187372013-08-10T21:27:43.678-07:002013-08-10T21:27:43.678-07:00Some of our high school teachers ae responsible fo...Some of our high school teachers ae responsible for 160 students per day. This is not ok- even if teachers accept additional dollars for large class sizes.Smaller Classesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-24152297443886096242013-08-10T17:33:05.362-07:002013-08-10T17:33:05.362-07:00I get that there are always going to be some hot i...I get that there are always going to be some hot issues - that's negotiation. That this class-size issue even came up, however, surprises me.<br /><br />Most all educators (and most admins are former educators) would agree it's not good and so this should not have even been on the table even as a wedge. Of course any given class' effectiveness all depends on the individual dynamics. I've had class sizes of 34 and 35 which were great - the 35 usually had 2-3 ELL IA's and thus we had several ELL students move to honors after that year. Yet I've also had classes of 15 struggling students that were exhausting and painful to teach... and that was with an average attendance of 11-12/day. Class size (#s) alone clearly is not the only determinant, but there is an impact.<br /><br />Please understand that sometimes (yes, sometimes, not always and definitely a risk) a larger class can go better because students look around, see a full class, and seem to realize they can forget asking the teacher for lots of individual help as there simply will not be much. Thus sometimes students do better in a slightly larger class as they try to work with their peers more instead of "wait" until the teacher gets to them. Obviously the larger class sizes not appropriate for classes with decent #s of mainstreaming IEP and/or ELL students.<br /><br />As an aside, most teachers I know are much more worried about the 150 max headcount than the 32 max. Yeah, that class of 34 can be a bear... but total exhaustion (and therefore necessary shortcutting) comes from having 155-160 students in part due to the sheer extra quantity of grading. Consider a total load of 125 students across 5 classes with one class having 34 due to a scheduling fluke verus 155 students total across those same 5 classes. One exhausting period can still result in fairly good teaching (and I think the financial incentive helps offset the extra time commitment and stress) versus being completely overwhelmed with weekly grading for the 30 extra students with a 155 student load.<br /><br />I for one am OK with an occasional class of 33 or 34 if needed (and if a good behavioral/skill level class), but I'm not sure you can even pay me to take on 151 students as I know my effectiveness will drop while my stress dramatically increases.<br /><br />One teacher's two cents.<br /><br />"Teach"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-75327844594005215542013-08-10T17:11:31.160-07:002013-08-10T17:11:31.160-07:00"Combining bigger class sizes with increased ...<i>"Combining bigger class sizes with increased inclusion seems like a recipe for disaster (and of course creates an excuse to decrease inclusion.)"</i><br /><br />Thank you Maureen for bringing this aspect of the district negotiating team's position into sharp focus.<br /><br />Let's see: cater to the union-busting elements on the side of the admin's negotiating team OR count on $10M less in IDEA funding for services provided to students requiring some additional, special education services. The district is now out of excuses to create more exclusion.<br /><br />As is evident from the latest Shaw/Varner screed, there are elements in media and commerce who have no problem capitilizing on the difficult position over 12% of our families find themselves in - essentially consigned to the dustbin of education.<br /><br />There are some of us who will not brook decreased inclusion. I would dare to say that includes state regulators. It is, after all, federal law. So that means everyone (except for those who wish to flee to private school) must make plans to comply with the law AND "close the achievement gap" or the other corporate Ed Reform hoo-haa.<br /><br />I will not invest my efforts in order to benefit neither the district's, nor the SEA's bargaining position. I WILL do whatever is necessary to ensure SPS students have a REAL teacher for a reasonable number of students, and adequate supports to deliver beneficial individualized instruction.<br />mirmac1https://www.blogger.com/profile/10183460709639638172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-44333777009383487222013-08-10T15:55:41.808-07:002013-08-10T15:55:41.808-07:00Am I right in thinking that SPS is trying to get t...Am I right in thinking that SPS is trying to get the union to agree to overall larger contractual class sizes so they don't have to pay a bonus to the teacher OR for an IA? I get that with increasing enrollment and no more class rooms, there simply WILL be more kids sitting in the remaining seats, but how can SPS excuse paying a HS teacher with a class load of 175 the same as one with a load of 125? And what incentive does that create for SPS to hire more teachers to fill whatever classrooms are available? SPS gets thousands more dollars for each kid in a seat, how can they justify not sharing some small part of that with the teachers?<br /><br />I agree with a teacher above who said that some classes are manageable even when they are large, but I don't hear that SPS is trying to negotiate variable contractual class sizes depending on the kids' needs (and of course, sometimes kids who aren't categorized as special needs can take a lot of attention.) Combining bigger class sizes with increased inclusion seems like a recipe for disaster (and of course creates an excuse to decrease inclusion.)<br /><br />Maureenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18444916440000921599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-48904252793101906732013-08-10T14:38:52.057-07:002013-08-10T14:38:52.057-07:00I wonder if anyone downtown did the math on what i...I wonder if anyone downtown did the math on what it would cost for IAs to help cover the load. Probably not. Because I'm sure the cost would immediately outweigh the supposed "savings" of increased class size.<br /><br />Or do they expect parents to quit their jobs and volunteer every day in every classroom.mirmac1https://www.blogger.com/profile/10183460709639638172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-23145302891105292692013-08-10T14:01:50.730-07:002013-08-10T14:01:50.730-07:00I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the ph...I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the physical space issue with larger classes. I've been in classrooms with 35(!) 6th graders, and there is JUST NO ROOM. It makes it incredibly difficult for the teacher to get physically near some students. If a student needs help, I may have to climb over 4 other students to get to that one. If there's problematic behavior developing across the room, it's very difficult to get there and diffuse the situation quietly before it escalates. You can't separate the kids that need separating. You can't arrange the room so that all the kids can see the boards.<br /><br />I think a second adult can help, IF they're good at what they do and work well with the lead teacher (and various other conditions are met), but that really doesn't solve the space issue. And I don't think that having the 2nd adult pull kids into the hall/common area is an appropriate choice-that's not what those areas are intended to be used for.<br /><br />RachelAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-57002010983573222522013-08-10T08:40:01.445-07:002013-08-10T08:40:01.445-07:00Impart, not part
CHMImpart, not part<br /><br />CHMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-11838281600344810132013-08-10T08:38:42.191-07:002013-08-10T08:38:42.191-07:00Note that in childcare settings there are strict r...Note that in childcare settings there are strict ratios of adults to children, in order to keep the kids safe. Yet somehow when someone is supposed to part knowledge it is okay to double the number of students per adult.<br /><br /><a href="http://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=170-295-2090" rel="nofollow">WA State Requirements for Staffing Childcare Centers</a><br /><br /><br />CHMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-27993240106814594372013-08-10T07:28:24.430-07:002013-08-10T07:28:24.430-07:00What I notice is the grading. It is particularly ...What I notice is the grading. It is particularly bad on writing assignments. My child typically writes 8-12 pages a week in her LA class. Of the few assignments that are graded she gets one comment, good job, or well done. No feedback, no ways to improve. But you can understand that when you think of a teacher trying to evaluate 1500 pages of student writing a week. I just don't think that my child learns anything or improves with no feedback on the writing. That is like practicing math calculations where you don't know if you are getting the right answer. How does that practice help? What a waste of her time.<br /><br />I think that smaller class sizes or more planning time would make a difference in grading student work. I believe that teachers in Finland spend half their day with no students.<br /><br />-HS parentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-87671508094621379292013-08-10T06:28:37.325-07:002013-08-10T06:28:37.325-07:00The money question is a non-issue. SPS spent over ...The money question is a non-issue. SPS spent over $250,000 and hundreds of administrative hours last year alone "investigating" and "evaluating" experienced teachers in order to force them out of their careers. <br />SPS wants cheap (inexperienced) teachers and unworkable class sizes ONLY so that the money can be used to support a bloated central administration and spurious ed reform experiments.<br />Parents want and students need individualized instruction, meaningful and timely feedback and the knowledge that the teacher knows the student as a special and unique person. This is certainly reasonable but can only be accomplished by teachers who have the experience to fully understand and practice their craft in settings that are not elbow to elbow.<br />All this crap about test scores is a political propaganda red herring that any thinking person would spit out at first bite.<br />This district uses available classroom space as a bargaining chip. There is plenty of totally wasted but perfectly usable space in the central office building that could house a innovative and dynamic secondary learning academy. Oh, I forget, but then the central admin would actually have to see students in their everyday working lives--something that should be avoided at all costs.<br />SalanderAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-1601103053174841202013-08-10T00:27:15.115-07:002013-08-10T00:27:15.115-07:00The amount that a teacher is paid for having extra...The amount that a teacher is paid for having extra students is ridiculous and insulting...something like $1.75 per student per day. Mr. Knapp is wrong , it is NOT a serious disincentive.D-Wadenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-8111835295688986702013-08-09T21:30:57.617-07:002013-08-09T21:30:57.617-07:00If you reduce class size, but then have the teache...If you reduce class size, but then have the teacher stand and deliver the same way they do for 30 or 20 there will be little effect. If however that class is run more effectively through formative assessment and differentiation; using small flexible grouping, giving kids meaningful work at an appropriate developmental level and use the ratios for more conferences and guided small groups, I think you would see a dramatic effect. I have yet to see a study by the way that studies the outcomes of smaller classes in intermediate grades.<br /><br />Parent and a Teacherjlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06803657660764570510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-75983624793757869062013-08-09T20:16:20.150-07:002013-08-09T20:16:20.150-07:00Thank you teachers for weighing it. It confirms m...Thank you teachers for weighing it. It confirms much of what I thought I understood. I am dismayed to hear that if larger classes sized occur, the money comes out of the school budget. <br /><br /><br />"If I had a choice between a huge raise and 32 kids or my current salary and 25 kids, I would take the later without a second thought. Being able to do my job well and give students what they deserve is my highest priority. I know that class size is the key to being able to accomplish that." <br /><br />I feel like sending this to Bill Gates. I just don't think he gets it (or wants to). But again, it's not his kids.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.com