tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post8454339892994628709..comments2024-03-28T02:21:17.452-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: CPPS Meeting, Tues, Nov 10 with Scott OkiMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger56125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-33113828857695278602009-11-11T23:44:23.784-08:002009-11-11T23:44:23.784-08:00Dora - you're lucky Nova is a good fit for you...Dora - you're lucky Nova is a good fit for your child. Their principal Mark Perry is outstanding, so no surprise it works well. But, does your positive experience mean that other parents are not correct when they claim (often in large numbers) that there are problem teachers in place in some schools? And, if Nova was forced to cut teachers, do you really believe that every teacher with 3 years and 2 months of experience is better than every teacher with 3 years and 1 month of experience? Because that is what bullet point #1 says, is it not? Shouldn't a principal as strong as Mark Perry and a community as strong as Nova's be trusted to use some judgment when it comes to staffing decisions? I understand the fear that judgment can be applied unfairly but that's a poor excuse for banishing any kind of judgment.Andrew Kwatinetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03963324854632142715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-37453244467310849502009-11-11T20:14:27.709-08:002009-11-11T20:14:27.709-08:00Mr. Oki, A Primer on Tenure vs. Seniority with Tea...Mr. Oki, A Primer on Tenure vs. Seniority with Teachers in the Seattle Public School System<br /> <br />After Mr. Oki's presentation, I wanted to get clear on the difference between tenure and seniority. Mr. Oki had mentioned tenure and the necessity of eliminating it from the Seattle teachers' contracts but it was my understanding that teachers in Seattle were not tenured.<br /><br />So after a few e-mails to those who know more than I do on this subject, I got the skinny.<br /><br />It goes as follows:<br /><br />Seniority ensures effective teachers in the classroom <br /><br />1. Eliminating seniority from the contract works against the goal of a high quality teaching staff. Studies indicate teachers are "learning the ropes" during their first five years on the job; thus it is illogical to suggest teachers in their early years of the profession are of the same quality as seasoned teachers. Therefore, in order to keep high quality teachers in the classroom, the less experienced teachers must be let go first, whenever conditions for a Reduction in Force exists. <br /><br />2. Seniority makes it more difficult for employers to cover up an arbitrary, capricious or discriminatory layoff, safeguarding whistle blowers and anyone who speaks up regarding wrongdoing. Teachers often speak up at staff meetings and testify at school board meetings on the behalf of students. Without seniority, issues of student safety and a deeper understanding of student achievement might go unheard.<br /><br />3. Seniority is not the same as tenure. K-12 teachers are not tenured, so unlike a judge or professor, they are not protected for life. Seattle teachers can be dismissed without reason in their first two years of teaching and thereafter can be dismissed as ineffective with two consecutive years of Unsatisfactory evaluations, which can include student performance as a factor.<br /><br />4. Seniority does not preclude dismissals for ineffective teaching. In the recent district audit, McKinsey & Co. noted the district underutilized the dismissal mechanisms in the current teacher contract. This is due to principals who are unable or unwilling to do their state mandated job of teacher evaluation. The Superintendent evaluates the principal corps. (No Seattle principals were dismissed last year.)<br /><br />5. The Union can not stop dismissals; they can only ensure workers have their due process protected. In the uncommon case of an ineffective teacher still in the classroom after the first two years, it is the principal who is responsible to insist on rigorous improvement plans followed by dismissal, if needed.<br /><br />6. What is to stop a district from seeing the financial benefits of laying off the most experienced, ergo most expensive, teachers? What controls would otherwise prevent the dismissal of a teacher just prior to retirement eligibility?<br /><br />OK, that makes sense.<br /><br />Now, Mr. Oki, is there anything that you would care to retract?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-58196760079799164072009-11-11T19:59:44.509-08:002009-11-11T19:59:44.509-08:00Actually, I wanted to make sure about this before ...Actually, I wanted to make sure about this before posting it, but teachers in Seattle do not have tenure in the job protection sense so it does seem that Mr. Oki does need to do a bit more homework on public education in Seattle or at least get his terminology straightened out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-3412549271043027272009-11-11T02:36:13.637-08:002009-11-11T02:36:13.637-08:00He then brought up KIPP schools as a good example ...He then brought up KIPP schools as a good example of a charter school.<br />According to others, that is not the case. See:<br /><br />Bay Area KIPP schools lose 60% of their students, study confirms<br /><br />http://www.examiner.com/x-356-SF-Education-Examiner~y2008m9d17-Bay-Area-KIPP-schools-lose-60-of-their-students-study-confirms<br />Charter school faces withdrawals over punishment<br /><br />http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/atlanta/stories/2009/03/22/kipp_school_withdrawals.html?cxntlid=homepage_tab_newstab<br /><br />Recess: Happy playtime or hellhole of fighting and bullying?<br /><br />http://www.examiner.com/x-356-SF-Education-Examiner~y2008m12d26-Recess-Happy-playtime-or-hellhole-of-fighting-and-bullying<br /><br />Mr. Oki started to talk about a principal that he met at a KIPP school who received her MBA at Stanford who was always on her Blackberry. He asked, how often does that happen in public schools? (I answered to myself, thank God, never) He said that teachers in charter schools like KIPP couldn’t be hampered by “silly laws” like having teaching certificates. Of course, that could mean that they would have to pay the teachers more. You have to keep your cost down in charter schools because of course, it IS a business.<br /><br />It was obvious that the presentation lacked substance. There were a few good talking points but there was no depth in terms of an understanding of how public schools run or are managed, particularly in Seattle.<br /><br />It was interesting to me that he had no knowledge of how alternative school programs fit the bill to most of his talking points. Fortunately someone else after the presentation provided him with an education to that and other points about public school education in Seattle.<br /><br />Signing off for now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-83898140234504397862009-11-11T02:34:06.437-08:002009-11-11T02:34:06.437-08:00Tenure. (Oh no, here it comes) Do teachers really ...Tenure. (Oh no, here it comes) Do teachers really need tenure? In Seattle, when it is desired to remove a teacher from their position, as with any firing, there is a systematic, and lengthy, process that one has to go through, otherwise, lawsuits might ensue. It’s more of a cya for SPS than anything else.<br /><br />We need an objective way of evaluating teachers. (The rallying cry of the educational reformists. Step One: Teaching Assessments). There is no difference in pay between “really good teachers and crumby teachers”. <br /><br />Principals should be the CEO of their schools.<br /><br />Standardized curriculum doesn’t work, as in the standardized math that was used in the Seattle Public School system. <br /><br />Some school districts in the state of Washington have six students, some have 100 students and some districts have 200 students and yet they have a bureaucracy and one would assume a well paid superintendent as well. Again,the issue of bureaucracy. A person at Microsoft would definitely be able to know a bureaucracy when they see one.<br /><br />We should have choice in terms of schools.<br /><br /><br />OK, good talking points. And then he began with “How to affect change” and said that it would take many years to change the system and that grassroots activism was a good start and then that was it! It was time for Q and A. I was just getting ready for the good part, a solution to the problem and then it was over!<br /><br />So then we went into questions from the audience.<br /><br />Regarding student testing: We don’t need testing for teachers to evaluate a student. What is needed is to provide resources to teach when help is needed.<br /><br />I don’t know that there was a question for this statement. Mr. Oki would kind of go off topic sometimes but at one point during his answer, he said that “I will go on record. The superintended should be fired for suggesting that students be graduated with a “D” average.” On that one point we could agree.<br /><br />Again, kind of off topic he said that “every single school should have a board of directors”, like charter schools. I was wondering when this would come up in the conversation.<br /><br />Mr. Oki said that the mayor or the state government should establish these boards in the schools. OK, now we’re talking mayoral control.<br /><br />Now it was my turn to ask a question and I admit, by this time I was tired of hearing that teachers were the root of all evil and that teachers thought more about themselves than they did the children they were teaching. Of course, my feelings were based on the fact that I have a child in public school and against all odds, most of my daughter’s teachers had been wonderfully caring, supportive, capable and able to challenge my child’s abilities and make going to school something to look forward to. <br /><br />My first question, OK, since you think that teachers are just in it for themselves and don’t care about the students who they are in charge of educating, what so you think that the merit pay should be based on? Well, Mr. Oki responded, that would have to be worked out. He went on to say that merit pay would make the teachers focus on the child.<br /><br />He said that “it is a business” and of course, I had to disagree.<br /><br />I came back and said that at this point it is based on standardized, high stakes, testing, what would you suggest?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-54626652356148303132009-11-11T02:32:46.822-08:002009-11-11T02:32:46.822-08:00CPPS and Scott Oki: Kool-Aid Anyone?
OK, first, y...CPPS and Scott Oki: Kool-Aid Anyone?<br /><br />OK, first, you know how I like my context.<br /><br />The presentation by Mr. Oki was set in the enormous cavern of a library at Garfield High School.<br /><br />In the heyday of corporate interior design, this space would have been a striking example of how to spend the most money possible. The library is a two story space with this skylight roof system that is well detailed and probably one of the most expensive ceiling systems that you will see in Seattle. I kept thinking that I was in a corporate headquarters in New York or LA and I have been in many. I have managed the construction of several corporate spaces in both cities. There are built in bookcases that are finely crafted, top of the line light systems and all of the shelves were filled with books in perfect order. In the middle of the space is another room which is one story high and again beautifully designed and detailed. In this space are computers and a lectern. The library space would have been top of the line for any corporate office but for a school in Seattle with so many financial problems that schools purportedly needed to be closed? The expenditure is highly questionable. I understand that the cost overruns on this building went into the millions and I can see why. Did someone actually tell the architect to go full steam ahead and spare no expense? It certainly looked like that was the message.<br /><br />It’s a shame to know that money was taken from such programs as SBOC, $10M from SBOC to be exact, to pay for some of these cost overruns when it is apparent that much of this cost was completely unnecessary. It’s also a shame to know that so many other schools are in such disrepair and seismically unsafe and yet so much money was poured into this remodel.<br /><br />But, I was not there to critically view Versailles, I was there to listen to Mr. Scott Oki.<br /><br />Mr. Oki was introduced by another former Microsoft employee, Andrew Kwatinetz, who is Vice President of CPPS. Mr. Oki made his fortune working at Microsoft as Vice President of Sales and Marketing.<br /><br />The first thing that Mr. Oki said is “I am not an expert” which was an excellent way to start his presentation since he has never taught in a classroom, or had any experience with public education since going to a public school in Seattle when he was in grade school. We found out later that all four of his children attend Lakeside, an exclusive private school that Bill Gates attended also when in high school. So his experience with Seattle Public Schools by his own admission is limited.<br /><br />He explained that over the years, his focus in terms of philanthropic work has been in child health care. Then, two years ago, his wife approached him regarding dealing with public education, telling him that “if anyone can fix the problem, you can”. With those words, Mr. Oki found out as much as he could about public school education. A few Google searches later and a trip to KIPP and he had all of the answers that he needed.<br /><br />He said that he looked at both sides of the issue, which to me was interesting because I didn’t know that there were two sides to public education, and decided that the approach to K-12 education was to see educational reform as a business. Hmm, teaching children is a business. OK, that’s a relatively new point of view.<br /><br />He went on to say that he had, as he termed it, a 2X4 moment, which for some of us might be called an epiphany, when he realized that nothing about K-12 education made sense. <br /><br />His talking points went like this:<br /><br />In the United States, there are more non-teachers than teachers on our public school payrolls and that we have the highest ratio internationally in that regard. OK. A good tidbit of useful information that someone can run with.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-5353899687400804392009-10-30T21:49:46.910-07:002009-10-30T21:49:46.910-07:00Yeah, and if teachers were paid like Mariners play...Yeah, and if teachers were paid like Mariners players, attracting good teachers would be easy, too!seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-10143237603380567002009-10-30T10:21:32.404-07:002009-10-30T10:21:32.404-07:00Baseball is not a good analogy to teaching, or mos...Baseball is not a good analogy to teaching, or most real-life jobs. The skills that define a good baseball player are defined, quantifiable, and free of influences outside the player's control. If teaching were that simple, running the schools would be much easier.Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16260807460417787614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-56437794074114592362009-10-29T16:25:39.127-07:002009-10-29T16:25:39.127-07:00I guess what it boils down to: do you want the deg...I guess what it boils down to: do you want the degree as quickly and efficiently as possible or do you want to relish the opportunity to learn new things?Dorothy Nevillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17108759281089768738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-72692791392924089232009-10-29T15:37:11.087-07:002009-10-29T15:37:11.087-07:00The UW has been kicking students out for having to...The UW has been kicking students out for having too many credits for a while. Seems to me this new program might be in part a way to put a spin on a phenomenon that isn't always seen as such a happy thing. A lot of people would *rather* get their full four-year college experience. Some would rather put their extensive AP credits toward a double major rather than get out of school early.<br /><br />I would be curious to know whether they allow students to get second bachelor's degrees any longer. I suspect not. Two of my siblings had a late-blooming interest in science and went back to college, first at community colleges and then transferring to the UW for second bachelor's degrees. I am not quite sure where they would have gone had the UW not been open to them. I realize that the UW is overcrowded and owes its first debt to getting as many students as possible through their first degree and their first major, but it is a great pity that should conflict with the needs of other students wanting to do more than average. Not sure what the solution is.<br /><br />I am not, of course, opposed to students graduating early if they wish to do so. I just think they ought to have more of a choice on how to use their credits.<br /><br />Helen Schinskehschinskehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10316478950862562594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-18575091970548001912009-10-29T14:16:32.911-07:002009-10-29T14:16:32.911-07:00OT, but really cool New UW program clears way to 3...OT, but really cool <a href="http://www.seattlepi.com/local/6420ap_wa_3_year_degree.html" rel="nofollow">New UW program clears way to 3-year degree</a> for kids with 45 AP and/or Running Start credits, saving them a year's tuition.TechyMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04650916001250022778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-84773122241530913262009-10-29T12:05:33.230-07:002009-10-29T12:05:33.230-07:00I disagree, Patrick. When the Mariners have to cut...I disagree, Patrick. When the Mariners have to cut players to get their roster size down after spring training, of course they look at performance. Why can a baseball team choose to keep their best players but the people in charge of teaching our kids cannot? Especially if you require teachers union oversight (as I've suggested) to ensure no dismissals just to shed larger salaries, get back at whistle-blowers, etc.Andrew Kwatinetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03963324854632142715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-57104452334068863122009-10-29T10:21:53.715-07:002009-10-29T10:21:53.715-07:00Andrew, of course layoffs can't look at perfor...Andrew, of course layoffs can't look at performance. The layoff process is for cases where there's not enough work for staff to do, period. That's why laid off teachers can be transferred elsewhere without it being a blot on their record. Layoffs are not a way of shortcutting due process required to counsel, discipline, or fire poorly-performing teachers.Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16260807460417787614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-79074640101415687492009-10-28T22:19:40.683-07:002009-10-28T22:19:40.683-07:00I'd also like to emphasize for readers who may...I'd also like to emphasize for readers who may not be aware of this that there aren't just two "players" here - SPS and teachers - there is also a Principal's union. This complicates the issue, as I'm sure we can all imagine.<br /><br />Me, I'm just a parent of two kids in SPS with no connection to either union nor to SPS management.<br /><br />BTW, I posted a followup to the Loyal Heights meeting last night and I'd love to get some feedback from other readers who were there. Perhaps it could be added onto <a href="http://saveseattleschools.blogspot.com/2009/10/community-meeting-with-director-maier.html" rel="nofollow">that thread.</a>Josh Hayeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17242600011474990770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-55928977542177457242009-10-28T21:33:36.752-07:002009-10-28T21:33:36.752-07:00Andrew K said:
I'd be all in favor of teachers...Andrew K said:<br />I'd be all in favor of teachers telling us what they think is the most fair way to encourage and reward great teaching, if we go that route.<br /><br />Boom! There it is! Before we start "quarterbacking" solutions we should be listening to our "linemen." If anyone knows what plays are going to work, it's them.wseadawghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08750439461734046035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-32429692218424856522009-10-28T18:17:56.406-07:002009-10-28T18:17:56.406-07:00Bulldogger, we weren't privy to that informati...Bulldogger, we weren't privy to that information as to where the teacher went. I'm hoping he is gone from our district because it is clear he is a hopeless case. I personally think he should never teach again but I don't think that is possible unless you break the law.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-15483211149436103522009-10-28T17:20:09.562-07:002009-10-28T17:20:09.562-07:00MW said...
"Yes, Principal Vance did get rid...MW said...<br /><br />"Yes, Principal Vance did get rid of two highly ineffective teachers but naturally, not before my son had both of them. (He had been on notice for a whole year before the one teacher was transferred out mid-year.)"<br /><br />You say the ineffective teacher was "transferred out". Was it a transfer to central administration, another school or the unemployment line? I've seen the first two happen but not the third.<br /><br />Also, I'm with Wseadawg. Two parties sign that contract. The district's role in this represents their own, ongoing ineffectiveness.BullDoggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12522189257797698683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-43096866476930663932009-10-28T16:45:16.586-07:002009-10-28T16:45:16.586-07:00I fully agree that principals and admins should no...I fully agree that principals and admins should not be off the hook.<br /><br />Also, when I say teaching is a team activity, I'm talking about 13 grades of a child's experience... it's a long race with multiple teachers passing the baton, so to speak. The problem with individual compensation is that it doesn't reward all of the less personally-attributable work that goes into making your peers better, managing and coordinating transitions, etc.<br /><br />But, as with the other discussion, I'd be all in favor of teachers telling us what they think is the most fair way to encourage and reward great teaching, if we go that route.Andrew Kwatinetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03963324854632142715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-45677552446955935462009-10-28T16:29:37.115-07:002009-10-28T16:29:37.115-07:00I wouldn't characterize those who question the...I wouldn't characterize those who question the high profile attention bad teachers get as being union defenders or defenders of the status quo. If they are bad, they should go. <br /><br />What I see is a concerted effort to call attention to this problem without enough attention being paid to the leadership failures that allow bad teachers to become malignant problems. <br /><br />I think it's important to realize that the same administration that is screwing up so many households and lives as this one is, is licking its chops at all the negative stereotypes being propagated about the teachers union, and getting a free pass (it seems) as is the principals union who are equally, if not more responsible for any and all bad teachers in the classroom. If we want real movement from the teachers union, we need to demand equal responsibility from the principals union and the administration that lord over the teachers.<br /><br />I don't see anyone defending bad teachers anywhere. Get rid of them now. But I think we need to pay attention to each contributing cause to the problem of the proverbial bad teacher, and I rarely, if ever, see the issue of others' responsibilities raised, or solutions or ideas being offered to correct those problems. <br /><br />Again, I reiterate, this is a management problem too, if not foremost. Don't feed the SPS monster by letting the principals and admins off the hook.wseadawghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08750439461734046035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-52777233992911282572009-10-28T16:06:22.589-07:002009-10-28T16:06:22.589-07:00Yes, Principal Vance did get rid of two highly ine...Yes, Principal Vance did get rid of two highly ineffective teachers but naturally, not before my son had both of them. (He had been on notice for a whole year before the one teacher was transferred out mid-year.) We did try (too late) to transfer my son out of one class but they had so many transfers, we were told no. (And Techy Mom, at the high school level, it is very difficult to just switch classes.)<br /><br />We have had this discussion before about teacher performance and I'll say what I said then - I see no compelling reason why it can't be done and done fairly. Andrew gives an example - a peer-review committee. <br /><br />Everyone gets a performance review in their job. It can be done for teachers as well and it is puzzling to see pushback.<br /><br />As well, I think there should be some kind of performance credit for teachers who do better (with weight given the school they teach in, students, etc.). I like to think teachers teach for the love of it but everyone deserves a pat on the back when they do a great job. A teacher at Roosevelt got an award as the top Japanese high school teacher in the U.S. and while I'm sure she is proud for the honor, a little money would have been nice as well. <br /><br />I don't see it as insurmountable IF everyone goes into the process with an open mind. <br /><br />I'm a little confused over the "team teaching" phrase. While I believe that everyone in a school is working towards a common goal and certain grades/departments plan together, at the end of the day it's one teacher with one class. <br /><br />Last, I am pro-union. Came from a union town, father was in a union, I get it. It is interesting that many teachers in charter schools (with no unions, remember, that's allegedly what makes them great) are now starting to want to unionize. But unions do have their own agendas and protecting ineffective teachers is wrong. (You'll note I said ineffective. I think there are very few "bad" teachers but I do think the category of "ineffective" is far larger and needs to be addressed.) Teachers know what effective teaching looks like and I think Andrew's idea is a good one.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-86585932158173113382009-10-28T15:28:35.439-07:002009-10-28T15:28:35.439-07:00I want to be clear: I LOVE TEACHERS... love '...I want to be clear: I LOVE TEACHERS... love 'em, love 'em, love 'em. The vast majority of them are amazing: the amount of work they do while under-funded, under-supported, under-compensated. In fact, I think they such have a huge impact on kids and they are so important, that we should not tolerate a situation where there isn't a good teacher. Like every other profession -- sometimes people don't perform as expected for a variety of reasons. <br /><br />Here's a simple solution:<br />In exchange for removing the clauses that protect all teachers equally -- whether good & bad (e.g. no record kept of performance issues, layoffs can't look at performance, etc.), we add a different clause to the contract: Any teacher removal due to a performance issue must be approved by a peer-review committee managed by the union. In other words, other teachers have to agree that there are legitimate grounds to dismiss that teacher. So, human judgment comes into play -- not straight test scores, parent feedback, the opinion of the principal, or any one consideration.<br /><br />I'm aware of the "political agendas" that some of you have mentioned. What I'm trying to say is that I want to SUPPORT the union and teachers against many of these "agendas" but I -- like many other parents -- cannot do so while the issues of over-protection for bad teachers exists.<br /><br />You can say I'm wrong. You can say bad teachers don't really exist. You can say the discussion is misguided. But you cannot deny that this issue is *perceived* to be a large issue by many parents. It would be a wise political move for the union to take the lead on this rather than resist.Andrew Kwatinetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03963324854632142715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-16743022852230545092009-10-28T14:55:02.482-07:002009-10-28T14:55:02.482-07:00Why is it against policy to move a student to a di...Why is it against policy to move a student to a different class if the student or parents request it? Seems like that would be a fairly easy fix. It doesn't really matter why a student and teacher aren't clicking, whether it's an actual shortcoming on the teacher's part, or just incompatible personalities, wouldn't everyone be happier if the student could move to a different class? If you find that a particular teacher has more of these requests than is typical, that would be a good reason to start looking at why, and to do interventions to correct the problem.TechyMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04650916001250022778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-17186421891146091772009-10-28T14:48:30.690-07:002009-10-28T14:48:30.690-07:00AdHoc: You're lumping "bad teachers and ...AdHoc: You're lumping "bad teachers and principals" together when the principal is supposed to hold the teachers accountable. They don't go in the same basket, but it seems like many on this blog put them there. If you have a bad teacher and a bad principal, then indeed it would be a very difficult trap to escape if you feel stuck with a bad teacher. But in that scenario, you have a failure of management and labor, not just labor. With all the teacher and union bashing that goes on in broad daylight, we do a disservice to ignore and give a free pass to management (principals) who play such a key role in protecting bad teachers. <br /><br />Where is the NCPQ? There isn't one. <br /><br />I support getting rid of bad teachers, but let's not forget managements' failures in allowing this problem to go on. They signed the two party union contract. Give them their share of the blame, or you certainly won't fix the problem.wseadawghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08750439461734046035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-62321720917865792412009-10-28T11:53:01.281-07:002009-10-28T11:53:01.281-07:00I am with Andrew and Ad Hoc and Dorothy. Bad teac...I am with Andrew and Ad Hoc and Dorothy. Bad teachers and principals can indeed cripple a school, cause families to leave mid-year, and damage the reputation. Ask Whittier. Ask Whitman. Ask Greenwood, the list can go on. It is naive to think people don't leave because of one bad teacher. They do. I and others like me have.<br />As for a strong principal being able to get rid of a teacher mid-year, you are missing the piece that the principals and SEA rules cause parents to act as the enforcer, logging hours in the clasroom, writing letters, etc, as a group, and that is how the teacher gets removed. It is a painful and disturbing process, because the teacher's union makes it one.<br /><br />The union needs to change it's focus on protecting teachers at all costs, or there can never be reform.Suehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12875541753709754758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-57657104665808430352009-10-28T11:14:51.707-07:002009-10-28T11:14:51.707-07:00Dorothy & Helen: It seems pretty clear that, ...Dorothy & Helen: It seems pretty clear that, in fact, if the principal is effective, the bad teachers can be removed, even mid-year. Adhoc: You have experienced what many of us have: People within the schools who aren't willing to take up the fight of removing bad teachers. That's where much of the problem lies. <br /><br />Another compounding problem is that for many teachers who some parents believe are awful, many other parents will think they are great. <br /><br />An ongoing problem I have witnessed first-hand is lazy principals throwing up their hands and saying, "I can't do this or that because of the union," which, in most cases, is a complete and total cop-out. <br /><br />There is a system in place to remove bad teachers, but it's not getting used because it isn't expedient enough or easy enough for principals to do their jobs. So nothing gets done. <br /><br />Realistically, without large-scale changes in the union policies that throw the baby out with the bathwater, thereby subjecting good teachers to the whims of bad principals, there will always be due process protections in place for all teachers, which principals and parents will have to go through to get rid of bad teachers. <br /><br />I'm with anyone who favors expedited procedures and time-frames, but there has to be something that empowers parents to force principals and administrators to do their job and remove bad teachers. <br /><br />A recurrent theme on this blog is administrators and principals copping-out, yet I don't see anywhere near equal time on that subject compared to the attention given to "bad teachers." <br /><br />We have to delve into the actual facts to see where the system is breaking down. I believe we will more often find the fault to be with people in positions of power who aren't doing their jobs, than we will with an obstructionist union.wseadawghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08750439461734046035noreply@blogger.com