tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post9146556189673146270..comments2024-03-28T02:21:17.452-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Troubling TalkMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-12084624616930412122014-06-03T16:11:21.622-07:002014-06-03T16:11:21.622-07:00for hecks sake,
they group kid in middle, high an...for hecks sake, <br />they group kid in middle, high and elementary and yes, they differentiate and yes, high ability kids do well. They don't mentor and tutor, they learn and they learn as much as kids in segregated programs. Only a few top level ability kids need to be out of classrooms with other kids all day every day. Maybe you need to go to a regular school and ask around and tour classrooms.As I said, APP parents are frequently not aware of how the many very capable students not in APP are taught and how well they are doing. Again, AL has the data and if and when they reduce APP to a truly special needs program, they should trot out some stats to back it up.<br />kooperAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-35652926832148764932014-06-03T15:47:49.330-07:002014-06-03T15:47:49.330-07:00I'm here and I'm a vocal APP parent who do...I'm here and I'm a vocal APP parent who doesn't consider education a competitive event. <br /><br />I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Is it that classrooms like the one I described are common in SPS high schools - or that they are not but should be? Either way, I believe that's what you're advocating for. <br /><br />How do the students I described benefit from that classroom grouping? Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-77869941423656310352014-06-03T15:17:40.403-07:002014-06-03T15:17:40.403-07:00Ya Wayne,
i am sure you separate your spoons from ...Ya Wayne,<br />i am sure you separate your spoons from your forks, so why don't you like segregation in everything?<br />Seriously, you are butting your head against a wall with APP believers. It's not about giftedness so much as getting ahead, being more competitive and getting into better colleges and universities, for some. Many APP parents are not that type at all, but they are not so vocal. Thanks for responding, we don't get the real academics weighing in too often.<br />kooperAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-14111801601241874212014-06-03T15:12:48.084-07:002014-06-03T15:12:48.084-07:00Oops. I see that I got that wrong. I'm not sur...Oops. I see that I got that wrong. I'm not sure what you're saying - that the classroom I described is common in high school - or that it's not because classes are ability grouped? <br /><br />Either way - as that's the type of classroom you're advocating for - can you tell me how you think it works for the students I described? Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-25055124103267160192014-06-03T14:59:44.219-07:002014-06-03T14:59:44.219-07:00Wayne Au,
You seem to be promoting de-tracking in...Wayne Au,<br /><br />You seem to be promoting de-tracking in K-12 public schools and yet you proudly boast of being in the tenure track at your university. How do you explain that?<br /><br />- BrazilAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-84137444930245682822014-06-03T14:19:26.282-07:002014-06-03T14:19:26.282-07:00I think you have homo and hetero mixed up, Lynn.No...I think you have homo and hetero mixed up, Lynn.No offense, but the bubble you inhabit seems to have to blinded you to the way education works outside of APP. Kids in high school are indeed grouped as they are in middle school and many K-5s.<br />kooper<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-74802049926476634582014-06-03T13:45:41.941-07:002014-06-03T13:45:41.941-07:00Kooper,
You're short on specifics. How can ri...Kooper,<br /><br />You're short on specifics. How can rigor be achieved without "excessive segregation" of children? How do you personally define "excessive segregation?" And who gets to draw the line to decide which children need self-contained classrooms? <br /><br />I did not indicate schools should only teach math, reading and science. History is a fine subject for teaching lessons about human rights and equity. I did say that every student should be learning in school. A child shouldn't be held back so that he or she doesn't get too far ahead of other students. <br /><br />Using the term tracking is not helpful here. Tracking to many people indicates putting students in high school on a college prep or vocational track and enrolling them in classes that only prepare them for that track. Nobody is advocating for that. <br /><br />When you group students by ability, a teacher can provide the instruction they need. If a child needs to work on grammar and vocabulary in high school, they should receive instruction in those areas. If they do not need those lessons, they should be able to take a language arts class that will provide them with new skills. <br /><br />If a child is reading at the fifth grade level in the first grade, leaving them in a general education reading class is a waste of their time and a waste of taxpayer dollars. It also does nothing to benefit their classmates or increase equity in our society. <br /><br />I could be totally wrong here. Can you describe what happens in a homogenous freshman language arts classroom that benefits the student that isn't quite reading on grade level, the capable student who would benefit from reading and discussion the novels to be covered, and the kid who read those books on his own years ago and really wants to and is ready to move onto more complex texts and topics? Please convince me this is better for everyone (or anyone.)Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-46549355883947290792014-06-03T13:43:59.608-07:002014-06-03T13:43:59.608-07:00some would consider grouping the top 10% OF studen...some would consider grouping the top 10% OF students preferential.like some, maybe all, would consider varsity sports preferential. But contrary to many APP defenders, sports at high levels, even through school, is not the same as academics. For one sports are optional and two, they are by definition competitive.<br />School is neither of those.<br />Very capable, just like very disabled, may require self containment, but it not healthy for the district to have such a large separate program for kids who could be taught equally well with other kids.We want all kids educated, we don't want kids bored and unproductive, and we also want integration of differently abled kids, including academically abled.<br />My hope is that the NSAP will promote racial mixing in housing in the city as a whole as parents in poor areas move to get their kids in better schools and gentrifiers move to low income areas and work to improve their local schools. APP is not helping in anyway towards desegregating our city, and it needs to be drastically reduced.<br />BTW, "target" is such a self important and pitying word to use. I wish the APP parents who see the inherent problem with the program and who would actually like to see their kids served in a less segregated environment stepped up with some ideas instead of letting the same people rehash the same old arguments for AL tracking. Kids of APP ability can and do make equal progress in regular schools.AL has the data on kids who have moved from disbanded Spectrum programs to cluster grouped, on former APP kids who have returned to their local and on kids who have moved into APP. Maybe they will share it someday and make a case for ending academic apartheid, but the myopia of many parents in the program is more a hearts and minds campaign and probably not winnable<br />kooperAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-70999358403577828902014-06-03T13:16:17.855-07:002014-06-03T13:16:17.855-07:00Kooper,
I understand your point, but the whole &q...Kooper,<br /><br />I understand your point, but the whole "express lane for the wealthy, long lines for the others" is off base. You think APP gets preferential treatment??? I must have missed that. <br /><br />And while APP may be an easy (and politically popular) target when it comes to issues of lack of diversity, it's probably not the best target. If you really want to promote diversity within schools, fight the NSAP. The Advanced Learning office is one of the few depts within the district that is actively trying to increase diversity!<br /><br />HIMSmomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-9694856234902322302014-06-03T12:31:09.117-07:002014-06-03T12:31:09.117-07:00Respectfully, Lynn,
Public schools have a duty to ...Respectfully, Lynn,<br />Public schools have a duty to do more than academics. Do we teach about slavery but give no indication of a moral imperative?<br />Do we not teach sex ed with a message of safety, abstinence and respect? Bullying? Do we have an opinion or are we just math, science and reading? And what can kids read? Why does the district pick Island of the Blue Dolphins? Just a random book based on vocabulary difficulty?<br />You must have cherry picked the strategic plan to avoid the words safety, community, well being.<br />The public, who pays for school, WANTS more than just the three r's, they want kids to learn values, respect, community, compassion.That is a problem with APP and self-contained classes, the isolation brings a loss of contact with others of different abilities. It's not like sports as so many like to say. It's more going to the supermarket and there is an express lane for the wealthy and the high IQ people and long lines for the rest. Everybody needs food and should be fed what they need to grow and prosper, but the few don't deserve there own line, unless they are disabled and that means the very highly capable not 10% of the district. This foot dragging and knee jerk opposition to a more inclusive district is so counter productive.I hope other APP parents believe more in social harmony being ONE of the goals of education.<br />Jon,<br />having academics above all else is also a doctrine. One that many taxpayers would not agree with. In fact, it is a toxic doctrine that fuels our " I got mine" philosophy that has made our country a hard place to survive for many despite incredible wealth. Do you read the facts on income inequality or growing rates of poverty or is it just the test scores and grades of the lucky ones that matter?<br />Plus, do we want more and more religious animosity and racial and class strife instead of educating kids about pluralism and acceptance of different cultures?<br />Schools moved away from just academics a long.long time ago.<br />One of the reasons for compulsory schooling was to reduce and eliminate child labor and to create an educated workforce to benefit all of us.School desegregation was used to eliminate Jim Crow in the south and redlined and segregated neighborhoods in the north,cities like Seattle.<br />call it social engineering or multiculturalism or liberal pap, the point is it is an important part of school and it doesn't work well with a two track system.<br />Rigor can be achieved without excessive segregation of students. There is line for self-contained, bur it should be kept as small as possible.<br />kooperAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-54809795217269543032014-06-03T10:27:49.042-07:002014-06-03T10:27:49.042-07:00Dr. Au,
Are you actually advocating closing the a...Dr. Au,<br /><br />Are you actually advocating closing the achievement gap by ensuring that gifted and high-achieving students are not provided the opportunity to achieve their full potential? If that's the case, my kids would prefer just to be taught at their own pace two days a week and be given the other three days a week off. (I promise not to let them spend the whole time reading.)Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-59566995130658440952014-06-03T08:48:25.644-07:002014-06-03T08:48:25.644-07:00I think what we have here is another example of th...I think what we have here is another example of the conflict between those who view the primary purpose of schools to be educating children and those who view its purpose to primarily be some form of society building.<br /><br />There always is pressure on the school system, public and private, to do something other than teaching reading and math. From the right, it usually takes the form of religious instruction. From the left, it often is some form of postmodernist multiculturalism. Advocates from these groups see the goal of schools not as teaching objective truth, such as reading and math skills, but trying to build their version of a what they believe is the only moral society through exposure only to their particular doctrine. They sometimes go further, as some commenters here seem to have done, and deny there is any reality or objective truth, that we are all pawns in some great conspiracy or power struggle, that teaching reading and math has no purpose, or that doing anything other than teaching their religion or philosophy is immoral.<br /><br />Clearly it is silly to try to do religious or multiculturalist society building through Seattle Public Schools. All it will do is cripple the education and prospects of children unfortunate enough to go through Seattle's school system while having no effect on the much larger number of children outside of that system. But that doesn't stop people from advocating for schools teaching doctrine over reading and math, here in Seattle and elsewhere in the county.<br /><br />It may be disturbing that there are people near or within Seattle Public Schools administration who do not believe that the primary purpose of the public school system is to educate children to the maximum of their ability, but it is common to have these kinds of people in any school system. Those of us in the reality-based community have to do our best to push back and make sure the children of Seattle get a real education.Jonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-18068657443916423842014-06-03T08:47:38.087-07:002014-06-03T08:47:38.087-07:00Kooper,
I disagree. Our public education system e...Kooper,<br /><br />I disagree. Our public education system exists to fulfill our obligation to children to prepare them to enter college or begin a career and to be engaged citizens.<br /><br />The district's strategic plan says:<br /><br /><i>Mission: Our Students Come First<br />• We believe it is essential to place the interests of students above all others in every<br />decision we make.<br />• We believe that the core work of the district is supporting student learning.<br />• We believe it is our responsibility to do whatever it takes to ensure that every child,<br />regardless of race, gender, socioeconomic status, language proficiency, learning style or disability, achieves to their highest level.</i>Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-13064745600583409492014-06-03T07:51:36.455-07:002014-06-03T07:51:36.455-07:00An analysis of the research on ability grouping
-...<a href="http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10218.aspx%22" rel="nofollow">An analysis of the research on ability grouping</a><br /><br />-more readingAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-71120012606098656352014-06-03T00:14:37.287-07:002014-06-03T00:14:37.287-07:00lynn,
hopefully kids go to school to learn HOW to ...lynn,<br />hopefully kids go to school to learn HOW to fix society's problems.at least, that what SPS should be striving for. after all , it is a PUBLIC school system. if a parent just wants their child to learn in order to get a head in the world or to get a religious education, they can opt to go private. public schools are in fact supposed to provide a benefit for all of us, not just each individual student. i think you got that a little wrong.<br /><br />kooperAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-26721251107096167562014-06-02T21:08:34.615-07:002014-06-02T21:08:34.615-07:00Dr. Au,
Can you direct me to the research that do...Dr. Au,<br /><br />Can you direct me to the research that documented the motives of parents who support ability grouping in schools? Your theory doesn't hold true in my case - as I don't see education as a competition. (There's not a limited amount of knowledge to go around.)<br /><br />Is your complaint that "tracking" creates inequities or that it doesn't help to eliminate them? <br /><br />Placing gifted children in heterogenous classrooms doesn't help struggling students. My understanding is that they don't see gifted children as role models - and that they are less likely to actively participate in a class where the range of abilities is too large. On the other hand, I've seen improper placement do a lot of damage to a gifted child. (Though maybe that's the equalizing effect you're looking for?)<br /><br />Children go to school to learn - not to correct society's problems. That is a job for adults - and something they'll need to do without using children as tools.Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-11562821329449221772014-06-02T19:22:52.804-07:002014-06-02T19:22:52.804-07:00Dr. Au,
Can you please explain how you think a de...Dr. Au,<br /><br />Can you please explain how you think a de-tracked system can effectively serve students who are highly gifted? I understand your argument as to what you dislike about tracking, but I'm having trouble seeing how an alternative approach would meet the needs of kids who are several years ahead of their peers, or who learn much, much more quickly. Is the idea to try stall their growth, to make kids more "equal"? We've seen that differentiation in the classroom is a pipe dream, so what's your suggestion? It's not enough to just say de-track. <br /><br />And a quick question re: tracking. Does the research apply to tracking that puts kids on paths that lead to different endpoints, such as an academic track vs. a vocational track? In the current SPS system, there aren't really tracks in that sense. For the most part, kids in the APP program end up in the same place as those who don't, taking basic classes their freshman year in high school. Then they have access to AP classes the next year, just like everyone else. With the exception of science (and this is at Garfield only), APP doesn't really fast-track you anywhere. In fact, you could argue that APP slows kids down--kids start out ahead of their peers, but end up in the same place. Perhaps APP is an equalizer?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-64699972635811221072014-06-02T18:24:46.252-07:002014-06-02T18:24:46.252-07:00Charlie,
I love your constructive tone. Glad you d...Charlie,<br />I love your constructive tone. Glad you decided to engage in a conversation instead of making assertions about what I do or do not know. Not the first time I've been attacked in public by someone whom I'm not sure actually has read the research on a policy that they are talking about. <br /><br />All I'm saying go look at the research. In addition to whatever else you folks think you are defending about tracking, systems of tracking have ALWAYS reproduced inequitable relations in schools, and that inequity has always mirrored the inequality that exists outside of schools. Yes we'll find individual examples of individuals rising through the ranks, but when we look at the aggregate, we get the same old same old: kids of parents with more resources and who have gone to college are in higher tracks, oftentimes with more resources, and working class kids and kids of color in the "lower" tracks. Whether you admit it or not, this is empirical fact.<br /><br />So, based on that reality, I said what I said. It has been well documented, particularly with regards to tracking, that affluent parents have blocked de-tracking efforts purely out of fear of their child losing their "leg up" in their perceived educational competition. And yes, I believe that de-tracking is actually an equity position (and an equality position) because it pushes back against the historical (and contemporary) function of schools acting as sorting populations into different occupational tracks (which, by the way, is the exact origin of tracking in education - it is even connected directly to eugenicist notions of biologically determined intelligence).<br /><br />So you and others support tracking, that's fine. Just be honest enough to admit that you are supporting an educational policy that has reproduced inequality (and inequity) at every turn, one that has been defended for years by advantaged communities interested in maintaining their advantages for their own children, not necessarily anyone else's.<br /><br />And yes, I know quite well the difference between equity and equality. Based on your post, I'm not sure you know, actually.<br /><br />But hey, I'm only Dr. Au, associate professor at UW Bothell with tenure, who studies education policy, has authored a ridiculous number of articles, book chapters, books, etc, speaks nationally on these issues, and who spends the entirety of his work focusing on issues of social justice in education. <br /><br />And no,I don't say all that because I think I walk on water, and I generally don't buy into elitist designations, BUT I do think that I've earned the right to a conversation about these issues instead of an ignorant attack about what I don't know in education, especially from someone who wasn't willing to publicly ask the question and engage in discussion at the event. But based on your tone here, I'm not convinced you're interested in actually engaging in a discussion - just provocation. <br /><br />So good on ya Charlie! You provoked successfully. Now I know the logics and arguments of pro-tracking folks like yourself and others posting here. The real test is if you or your readers will actually explore the issue with any depth and complexity and try to understand the arguments against tracking as well.Wayne Aunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-70870453369907026142014-06-02T09:37:10.092-07:002014-06-02T09:37:10.092-07:00SPS kindergarten uses that! At least ours did. Bot...SPS kindergarten uses that! At least ours did. Both my kids "went to Letterland." It is a very engaging curriculum, and I agree, taught my kids well.<br /><br />-letter loverAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-17084871869915818082014-06-01T22:11:48.464-07:002014-06-01T22:11:48.464-07:00Not SPS but at an independent school, my son took ...Not SPS but at an independent school, my son took off this year (first grade) going from emerging reader to one of the best spellers in the class with instruction using the Letterland curriculum. It uses stories and characters to help build phonic skills. He came home every day for months telling me what the characters did that day.<br /><br />http://www.letterland.com<br /><br />Ann DAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-59830303451730339452014-06-01T07:13:10.765-07:002014-06-01T07:13:10.765-07:00It's conversations like this that make it easy...It's conversations like this that make it easy to understand why ~30% of Seattle's kids have been driven out of the public schools. If parents don't see the public school system as providing for their kids' educational needs, those with the means to do so will find an alternative. <br /><br />Using the "equity" argument to bring down the top performers for the sake of "fairness" is a recipe for turning Seattle Public Schools into a place only for those too poor to go somewhere else. Good luck getting voter support for education at that point. <br /><br />Quality Education for AllAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-47563218432781479762014-05-31T14:24:09.457-07:002014-05-31T14:24:09.457-07:00WSDWG said, If you want what "they" have...WSDWG said, <i>If you want what "they" have, the district's typical response is not to give it to you by replicating and expanding what "they" have to include you (that takes work), but instead to take away what "they" have and say, "there, now you're even."</i> <br /><br />On my gosh, that is so true. The potential loss of math waivers is a good example. It's a Harrison Bergeron mentality....<i>The year was 2081 and everybody was finally equal.</i><br /><br />-disheartenedAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-47880181289680740112014-05-31T12:27:25.013-07:002014-05-31T12:27:25.013-07:00Thanks!
another teacherThanks!<br />another teacherAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-40686822887600558742014-05-31T11:52:42.324-07:002014-05-31T11:52:42.324-07:00I'm using a supplement to the program called S...I'm using a supplement to the program called Sound Patterns which I still had from a decade ago. I'll have to find the name of the original complete program which I used my first year of teaching as I started at a school that didn't even have a reading program in the building! I got it at Academic Aids and it proved to be fantastic. Of course, it was a program designed to fill a good two hours which we all know is hardly possible these days. <br /><br />But the supplement gave me a good short program to target phonemic skills and it is all auditory. I did have students write the words in notebooks following the session but the emphasis is on hearing the sounds and rhymes.Spectrum Teachernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-42447947341217026702014-05-31T10:40:22.924-07:002014-05-31T10:40:22.924-07:00Yay for a civil discussion. Yay for a civil discussion. Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.com