tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post9166427848011142033..comments2024-03-29T02:41:52.718-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Garfield Choir Field Trip UpdateMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-88152380565760005192015-08-17T09:33:00.085-07:002015-08-17T09:33:00.085-07:00Reader, you seem quite assertive in your comments....Reader, you seem quite assertive in your comments.<br /><br />Again, I would have to know what Ms. Miller's job description looks like - she can make these judgements all by herself when it comes to other students' safety? There's no second check on these types of issues?<br /><br />As well, "the boy misbehaved?" The boy broke the law. Big difference.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-30884321887815523582015-08-17T08:25:37.454-07:002015-08-17T08:25:37.454-07:00Beryl Miller isn't culpable of anything. When ...Beryl Miller isn't culpable of anything. When students transfer either up, or in from outside, judgments as to disciplinary records need to be made. We don't want students with huge, and unwarranted discipline files to be burdened by this. These aren't criminal court decisions. They are often discriminatory findings of culturally incompetent school staff. I've seen them. Keeping every discipline issue is equally problematic. Somebody had to make the call. Ms. Miller did. Turns out the kid misbehaved. It is actually nobody's fault. No action is called for. None.<br /><br />ReaderAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-75178736714117451182015-08-12T09:00:55.925-07:002015-08-12T09:00:55.925-07:00The writer is a young woman (a guest writer I'...The writer is a young woman (a guest writer I'm thinking). I don't think she read the documentation nor that she knows the district very well.<br /><br />RLF, agreed. I am astonished that Beryl Miller, the district official who made the call - seemingly by herself - to NOT include his past behavior into the district's database is still working. Of course, maybe she was sanctioned and that's where the Board could come in. Meaning, they may not be able to do anything in this case but they could pass policy that requires that at least they are told about sanctions. <br /><br />But again, while RLF is correct that this student doesn't care about rules and boundaries, it seems that making a "relaxed" atmosphere for him to act out certainly didn't hurt and may have emboldened him. Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-24786967647563170682015-08-12T08:43:15.286-07:002015-08-12T08:43:15.286-07:00There wouldn't have even been an investigation...There wouldn't have even been an investigation, leading up to a termination, if the misconduct of the student had not occurred and been reported. This is a student whose misconduct included groping on the bus on the way to the airport (see exhibits). He is not interested in rules and boundaries of the sort that are touted in this forum. <br />The root cause of this termination is the misconduct of the student, who should not have been included in trip in the first place. There are certainly some issues with staff and accompanying adults, but it is not a termination issue.<br />Track unsafe students and keep all supervising adults well apprised!<br />RLFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15852167175515568400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-51551074459595130272015-08-12T07:47:20.428-07:002015-08-12T07:47:20.428-07:00The article in the Weekly continues to make the sa...The article in the Weekly continues to make the same mistake that everyone else is making. They presume that Ms Burton is getting fired because of the alleged sexual harassment/assault. That simply isn't the case. The reports of a sexual assault triggered an investigation, but it is the wholesale violation of field trip procedures discovered by the investigation that is costing Ms Burton her job, not the alleged groping.<br />The article in the Weekly is also in error by suggesting that the School Board had anything to do with this. That's just objectively wrong.<br /><br />The Weekly writes:<br />"<i>Late Friday, Superintendent of Public Schools Larry Nyland passed a letter of termination to Garfield High School choir teacher Carol Burton. Ostensibly, this is punishment for her failure to uphold district policies for field trips on a March excursion to New Orleans, during which, it was discovered: Burton and several of her parent chaperones had partaken of alcohol, tacitly sanctioned mixed-gender chill sessions in hotel rooms and, most damningly for the embattled School Board, oversaw an environment that left two girls complaining of unwanted sexual contact from a male classmate.</i>"<br /><br />Why "ostensibly"? Why isn't the stated rationale for the action credible? Why the presumption that Dr. Nyland is being deceptive?<br /><br />Why characterize the School Board as "embattled"? What's the source of that view?<br /><br />Why even mention the School Board? They had absolutely no role in any of this.<br /><br />I think the writer for the Weekly has some questions to answer.Charlie Masnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-41772366590752987222015-08-11T18:30:21.186-07:002015-08-11T18:30:21.186-07:00I have been pretty clear on the issues. Folks can...I have been pretty clear on the issues. Folks can choose to decide what would matter to them for their own child and chaperone behavior on field trips. <br /><br />I have gone on record saying Burton should not be fired but she should also never plan/lead a field trip. <br /><br />Again, the drinking did not cause the groping. The relaxed atmosphere created by adult behavior almost certainly enabled and empower the male student. <br /><br />Why are rules important when kids are younger but not with teens? Those who haven't parented thru the teenage years, come back when you have and we'll talk again.<br /><br />Lastly, I didn't make the rules so I'm not saying which rules can be broken. <br /><br />Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-62249113988605050892015-08-11T10:58:19.947-07:002015-08-11T10:58:19.947-07:00Charlie wrote,
1) The drinking by Ms Burton and t...Charlie wrote,<br /><br /><i>1) The drinking by Ms Burton and the chaperones had nothing to do with the alleged sexual assault.<br /><br />2) The alleged sexual assault had nothing to do with Ms Burton's firing.</i><br /><br />Well, the drinking was one of the rules that the students knew Ms. Burton was breaking, and so was one of the reason the victims attempted to handle the continued assaults themselves instead of reporting them.<br /><br />If the assaults hadn't happened, there would have been no investigation and no firing.<br />Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16260807460417787614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-90673014705391441262015-08-10T16:54:20.908-07:002015-08-10T16:54:20.908-07:00Po3 you miss the point. If the kid is not on the f...Po3 you miss the point. If the kid is not on the field trip, the reported incidents don't get filed because they don't happen. It is the lack of due diligence on management's part that keeps the stage from being set. Why is this so hard to understand?<br /><br />If Charlie Mas is correct and her behavior didn't cause anything bad to happen (this will be demonstrated), then this is a situation for progressive discipline, not termination. A hearing examiner will get it if her representation is any good. The school district will spend a lot of your money and lose the adverse action case.<br />RLFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15852167175515568400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-64251352264138773712015-08-10T16:30:30.124-07:002015-08-10T16:30:30.124-07:00Let's get two things clear.
1) The drinking b...Let's get two things clear.<br /><br />1) The drinking by Ms Burton and the chaperones had nothing to do with the alleged sexual assault.<br /><br />2) The alleged sexual assault had nothing to do with Ms Burton's firing.<br /><br />Ms Burton was not fired because two girls reported sexual harassment/assault on the field trip. Ms Burton got fired because she violated a number of field trip procedures and did so willfully and unrepentantly. If you want to discuss the firing, please address yourself to the true rational for it - not the reported sexual harassment/assault. That's what a student on the trip is accused of doing wrong. Ms Burton isn't getting fired for what the boy did wrong; she's getting fired for what she did wrong. Her consumption of alcohol is not even the big part of that.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-87615194990842204982015-08-10T15:53:57.474-07:002015-08-10T15:53:57.474-07:00Except that IF the rules had been followed AND the...Except that IF the rules had been followed AND the student assaulted a student THEN the school or the district could have been held responsible.<br /><br />It was a rule, which was broken that set the stage for the assault and the teacher could not argue due diligence.<br /><br />Po3noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-12272025860133489542015-08-10T15:14:10.608-07:002015-08-10T15:14:10.608-07:00N, the assaults occurred because a person with kno...N, the assaults occurred because a person with known deviant behaviors was allowed to attend this field trip. He would have found a way to perpetrate regardless; this is his history. The rules issue is just a smokescreen to shield very poor administration.RLFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15852167175515568400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-33930213687536668362015-08-10T14:53:29.300-07:002015-08-10T14:53:29.300-07:00The point is that the school district had the info...The point is that the school district had the information and did not follow due diligence when allowing a known perpetrator to attend an extended field trip where he would have numerous opportunities, regardless of how well rules were followed, to offend as he has in other circumstances. The docs and testimonies from several students strongly indicate that he finds opportunities. The teacher and chaperones did not cause the perpetrator's behavior and rules have not,historically, had much effect on preventing his behaviors. The staff drinks and the rather artificial co-mingling boundaries rejection by the students are diversionary. <br />It is a very big problem for teachers and other staff members, when they are not informed of potentially dangerous students being placed under their supervision. It happens way too often. <br />Experienced.RLFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15852167175515568400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-47329305079451567572015-08-10T14:51:37.375-07:002015-08-10T14:51:37.375-07:00Techymom - That is exactly the point I made. The a...Techymom - That is exactly the point I made. The assault was the result not following the no opposite sex in room rule. <br /><br />If all the rules had been followed then Ms Burton would not be losing her job. <br /><br />So, yes IMHO all the rules should have been followed, not just the ones bloggers agree with - that is a nonstarter.<br />Po3noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-62303718473646741382015-08-10T14:28:30.365-07:002015-08-10T14:28:30.365-07:00The glass of wine had nothing to do with the sexua...The glass of wine had nothing to do with the sexual assault. Should all the rules be followed or just the ones bloggers agree with?TechyMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04650916001250022778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-10618765669772084622015-08-10T13:53:39.233-07:002015-08-10T13:53:39.233-07:00"...why do some rules need to be followed whi..."...why do some rules need to be followed while others can be bent?"<br /><br />Because some rules, when bent, lead to sexual assaults while others do not.<br /><br />If rules had been followed and an incident occurred w/ this male student, then blame could have been placed on the school or the district for allowing the student to participate, not the teacher.Po3noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-24094097553568394352015-08-10T13:53:13.660-07:002015-08-10T13:53:13.660-07:00"...why do some rules need to be followed whi..."...why do some rules need to be followed while others can be bent?"<br /><br />Because some rules, when bent, lead to sexual assaults, while others do not.<br /><br />If rules had been followed and an incident occurred w/ this male student, then blame could have been placed on the school or the district for allowing the student to participate, not the teacher.<br /><br /><br />Po3noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-68336662026325395332015-08-10T12:58:14.437-07:002015-08-10T12:58:14.437-07:00Speaking of larger issues- if you read all the doc...Speaking of larger issues- if you read all the docs you will see that the groper seems to find a way to grope, wherever he is,.....so the larger issue is why he was included in the field trip in the first place. That one appears to be on school district management,not the teacher. That fact will and should play a big part in the adjudication, which will be taking place eventually.RLFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15852167175515568400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-83589527699329574082015-08-10T12:17:00.018-07:002015-08-10T12:17:00.018-07:00Moose, do you feel the same way about teachers who...Moose, do you feel the same way about teachers who ignore requirements to use a particular book, give a particular test, or discipline in a particular way? If not, why do some rules need to be followed while others can be bent? TechyMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04650916001250022778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-75613965849057164142015-08-10T11:34:07.390-07:002015-08-10T11:34:07.390-07:00Techy Mom and others - she agreed ahead of time (a...Techy Mom and others - she agreed ahead of time (as did the chaperones) that there would be no consumption of alcohol. An analogy: exceeding the speed limit will warrant a ticket or even license suspension if caught. It doesn't matter that the speed limit is capriciously enforced - you as a driver are subject to consequences if caught. She was caught - a particularly terrible lapse in judgement given that 1. she was in charge of the safety and well-being of other people's kids, and 2. the fallout from the Nature Bridge lapse in judgement by chaperones. As an aside, her drinking even 2.5 glasses of wine cuts from her the moral high ground by which kids caught with alcohol on a school trip are sent home and like MW has stated, sends the absolute wrong message to teenagers who are willing to exploit any loophole. <br /><br />I don't disagree that the larger issue is the lenient interpretation of room rules (boys in girls rooms and vice versa). However my point to those who say that teachers will never want to chaperone trips again or that she is unfairly losing her job...drinking on the job in violation of the terms of her agreement are by itself reason for termination. <br /><br />MooseAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-75361475600998430082015-08-10T10:50:04.048-07:002015-08-10T10:50:04.048-07:00I am surprised at how this incident has become abo...I am surprised at how this incident has become about the drinking that took place. To me, it is about the decision to violate the "no boys in girls room vice versa" rule, which led to an assault. Had Ms. Burton held firm on that rule the cascading events would not have followed. The rule is in place for good reason as evidenced by what happened as a result of the rule being violated. I think the "2.5 glasses of wine" has become a distraction from the real issue.<br /><br />With that said, I also do not believe Ms. Burton should be fired. I think she should be removed from GHS and reassigned to another school and never be allowed to take students off campus. Po3noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-90473193426177007352015-08-10T09:12:46.258-07:002015-08-10T09:12:46.258-07:00I seem to recall that some in the choir reported t...I seem to recall that some in the choir reported to the investigators that things had been happening with respect to this boy for some time in class. I find it sad that there isn't a greater focus on finding out why female students are reluctant to report things and seek help. If it was happening for some time, obviously the behavior of the chaperones alone can't explain the reluctance to report. Hope this aspect doesn't get buried in the focus on the chaperones and the school district. Would love to see some sort of action plan/student education/ support about unwanted sexual contact in all high schools, but I am not too optimistic since it is a much harder problem to address.<br /><br />CuriousaboutCultureAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-3832251065100589292015-08-10T07:24:52.791-07:002015-08-10T07:24:52.791-07:00A glass of wine at a catered event on a business t...A glass of wine at a catered event on a business trip is completely normal. Using alcohol for team building (as she claims to have done with volunteers) is also common. My employer reimburses for it as a business expense. <br />SPS has lots of rules that are ignored by schools. People here endorse schools doing that for curriculum adoption, test administration, and other reasons. I get that some people agree with this particular rule and are shocked that it's ignored. A teacher made a judgement call, where an SPS rule was considered as one factor against many others. Teachers do this every day. TechyMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04650916001250022778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-59931060431457450482015-08-10T07:19:28.767-07:002015-08-10T07:19:28.767-07:00Are teachers and chaperones really on duty 24/7 on...Are teachers and chaperones really on duty 24/7 on fieldtrips? Shouldn't there be shifts when some are on call and others off duty? If the teacher is really working 24 hours, how does that fit into their contract? They aren't paid for that time are they?<br />Maureennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-11950076025853834062015-08-09T21:22:58.898-07:002015-08-09T21:22:58.898-07:00I don't understand many of you. Drinking while...I don't understand many of you. Drinking while on the job is a fireable offense, period. I don't care if she is an inspired teacher, or a nice person, or Mother Theresa - she made a huge mistake and now must live with the consequences. (Much like we tell our children, right?) The fact that any employer is taking a harsher, stricter line now does not mean they shouldn't have in the past, but I am glad to see that they are doing so now. <br /><br /><br />MooseAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-81626321035977187602015-08-09T19:27:33.174-07:002015-08-09T19:27:33.174-07:00No field trips is a reasonable punishment. Firing ...No field trips is a reasonable punishment. Firing a truly inspired teacher is not. This is the second top-notch teacher I have seen fired by the district in 8 years (and there are more). But the poor teachers muddle on precisely because they don't rock the administrative boat.<br /><br />I hope Burton appeals and wins a position back - or she could go to another district and build a choir to beat the pants off Garfield. Serve them right.<br /><br />-IngrahamParentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com