tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post99580459629359024..comments2024-03-28T02:21:17.452-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Want to Challenge MAP?Melissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-59494304947576144052010-11-01T21:17:53.934-07:002010-11-01T21:17:53.934-07:00None1111 said:anon-o-mus likes the MSP {vs the MAP...None1111 said:anon-o-mus likes the MSP {vs the MAP}, but there are (at least) a couple big problems with it. <br /><br />First, the delay is way too long between taking the test and getting the results. And because you get it the following year you don't really know the student or the full context of what was going on the previous year. Both with the individual kids and with their classrooms. Well, maybe a super-duper diligent teacher who has great relationships with all the previous grade teachers, and provided that they are all stable in the same building, maybe they can glean some useful info. <br /><br />~I work in a smaller district than seattle SD, but my kids will go to seattle SD... yes, in a smaller district, a teacher can be diligent and connect the MSP data to specific students. I have specifc plan time to meet with staff in the grade level above and below my own. There is also a lot of dialogue between grade level teachers (we call it vertical teaming) outside of the spcified plan times. Frankly, I want to work in SSD so I can be closer to home, but from what I hear/read about the district troubles, I am very discouraged. <br /><br />There are some problems with any standardized test... I favor the MSP because it gives the teachers data about students abilities that are directly related to our state standards (which I am held accountable to). Teachers in my district have been left in the dark as far as how to access data and interpret data produced from the MAP. When I took the initiative to find out how to access data that may be useful by calling the website support number the MAP website rep. had indicated that it was a tool to use to predict which students would pass the state test at the end of the year. I want a diagnostic tool, not a predicting tool. The test is much like the STAR reading test, in that it jumps around using questions from all grade level standards in math. So one student may have to go through many questions/skills that they are completely unfamiliar with before the test "finds" the skill level that they can complete. I want to know how my students are doing with the standards that I teach, and I don't want my students discouraged by having to struggle through questions on concepts they are completely unfamiliar with. Yes, you are right, it may give a picture of what students may be capable of if they can achieve above grade level expectations and are advanced/gifted. I'm not sold on the MAP test though and I agree with many of you that it is given too often, takes up too many resources (money and staff), and it is being sold as the best new thing~everyone is doing it!anon-o-musnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-9950728831937804062010-11-01T21:17:27.331-07:002010-11-01T21:17:27.331-07:00None1111 said:anon-o-mus likes the MSP {vs the MAP...None1111 said:anon-o-mus likes the MSP {vs the MAP}, but there are (at least) a couple big problems with it. <br /><br />First, the delay is way too long between taking the test and getting the results. And because you get it the following year you don't really know the student or the full context of what was going on the previous year. Both with the individual kids and with their classrooms. Well, maybe a super-duper diligent teacher who has great relationships with all the previous grade teachers, and provided that they are all stable in the same building, maybe they can glean some useful info. <br /><br />~I work in a smaller district than seattle SD, but my kids will go to seattle SD... yes, in a smaller district, a teacher can be diligent and connect the MSP data to specific students. I have specifc plan time to meet with staff in the grade level above and below my own. There is also a lot of dialogue between grade level teachers (we call it vertical teaming) outside of the spcified plan times. Frankly, I want to work in SSD so I can be closer to home, but from what I hear/read about the district troubles, I am very discouraged. <br /><br />There are some problems with any standardized test... I favor the MSP because it gives the teachers data about students abilities that are directly related to our state standards (which I am held accountable to). Teachers in my district have been left in the dark as far as how to access data and interpret data produced from the MAP. When I took the initiative to find out how to access data that may be useful by calling the website support number the MAP website rep. had indicated that it was a tool to use to predict which students would pass the state test at the end of the year. I want a diagnostic tool, not a predicting tool. The test is much like the STAR reading test, in that it jumps around using questions from all grade level standards in math. So one student may have to go through many questions/skills that they are completely unfamiliar with before the test "finds" the skill level that they can complete. I want to know how my students are doing with the standards that I teach, and I don't want my students discouraged by having to struggle through questions on concepts they are completely unfamiliar with. Yes, you are right, it may give a picture of what students may be capable of if they can achieve above grade level expectations and are advanced/gifted. I'm not sold on the MAP test though and I agree with many of you that it is given too often, takes up too many resources (money and staff), and it is being sold as the best new thing~everyone is doing it!anon-o-musnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-10950568248956951982010-11-01T17:44:15.642-07:002010-11-01T17:44:15.642-07:00I just noticed that MAP results are posted on The ...I just noticed that MAP results are posted on The SourceAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-72079496852222691842010-10-31T22:50:45.160-07:002010-10-31T22:50:45.160-07:00Bradley Bernatek did not have enough information a...Bradley Bernatek did not have enough information about existing testing data and he ignored District systems; MGJ was doing a favor to an old friend when she put District money for MAP. There were some soft benefits to MGJ. <br />We are still trying to verify with the State Auditor the exact amount of money spent - approximately $500,000 excluding cost of contractors and meetings with Principals who are not happy about MAP.Sandy Blightnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-14661182792578253722010-10-28T18:31:08.222-07:002010-10-28T18:31:08.222-07:00On another thread, Chris, people wonder if the clo...On another thread, Chris, people wonder if the closure of schools is a preliminary to reopening them as charters.<br /><br />There IS a drive to make education cheaper, and maybe even profitable. Addressing the needs of individuals is expensive; processing widgets through a standardized system is cheaper, particularly if you can break the union and lower the wage of employees who, with a scripted curriculum needn't address such things as the the individual needs of students.<br /><br />There is certainly a large movement, un-noticed and certainly not publicized, to put into place the necessary things to break public education as we know it into the "free market shopping mall" of education, charters, vouchers, merit pay...all of these things are incrementally being enacted (except for vouchers, so far: still to radical, perhaps, for the free-marketeers to sell to a public that still believes in public schools)<br /><br />Yes, charters are almost here. Bit by bit, the changes are happening that will allow them. Some people think this is great: They believe charters will replace what we used to have (until it was dismantled): choice in public schools. It has been pointed out here, by many and for years, that it's strange that the district isn't supportive of alts in particular, and option schools generally - can't have good options available in public schools if you want to put into place charters, now can we? Some argue that charters can be what alts and options once were - innovative, adaptive, able to meet the needs of a variety of students...of course, this could all be done in a publkic framework, but it's not because charters are coming and public options would be not only competitive with charters, but would point out how un-necessary charters are.<br /><br />Of course, for now we will still have publics - Garfield, Franklin, Roosevelt...try to turn those into a charter and all hell would break lose. But with standardized tests come the illusion that "schools fail" and schools in poor communities will be charterized because the parents and guardians in those communities are anxious for a leg up, standardization is seen as that the leg up, seen as an equalizer, and teachers in those schools have been made scapegoats, have been told theyre racist ("achievement gap? Teachers' fault. If achievement gap is race-based, teachers in this schools are either racist or culturally inept, because THEY caused the achievement gap, right?" So those schools are targeted for charterization. What's weird is to expect the teachers in some new charters to somehow be "better": THEY wouldn't be racist or culturally inept (if that is the pronouncement being used to dis public teachers) now would they?<br />Yes, 6696, Tim Burgess, Reuven Carlyle...many movers and shakers have drunk the kool-aide, made concessions, made deals with various players, and so charters are coming, merit pay is coming, the free market and competition will displace caring public servants and true choices...<br /><br />ach.seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-3291853939754482742010-10-28T14:58:42.569-07:002010-10-28T14:58:42.569-07:00Looking at Sahila's middle link & comments...Looking at Sahila's middle link & comments... Apparently in Colorado, all the TESTING in public schools is driving families to charter schools. There's something perversely circular about this I can't quite put my finger on...This is the kind of thing that would only make sense if there were a conspiracy to kill public education. Can someone rebut?Chris S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17016898261120819596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-64855381458606957422010-10-28T10:50:43.622-07:002010-10-28T10:50:43.622-07:00Dan,
The positive result is seeing MGJ's and ...Dan,<br /><br />The positive result is seeing MGJ's and her Executive Management Team's backsides as they go out the door.<br /><br />In Boston, parents are hitting the streets in protest. I like that!<br /><br />BTW, Whoever is going to the Seattle Rally for a Return to Sanity should bring signs supporting Schools and anti-RTTTmirmac1https://www.blogger.com/profile/10183460709639638172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-36066060287999877132010-10-28T09:25:33.444-07:002010-10-28T09:25:33.444-07:00Dear Mirmac1,
You said:
"Seattle, this is us...Dear Mirmac1,<br /><br />You said:<i><br />"Seattle, this is us in a few months...<br />http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/27/as-boston-schools-close-s_n_774796.html"</i><br /><br />But maybe NOT ... in a few months .. we may finally see some positive results from legal actions involving District leaders and Board members.<br /><br />Hope springs eternal.dan dempseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15536720661510933983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-84232027322786490812010-10-28T09:22:02.032-07:002010-10-28T09:22:02.032-07:00Kathy,
Speaking of expensive crap that does not m...Kathy,<br /><br />Speaking of expensive crap that does not meet the needs of students.....<br /><br />The debacle of the MAP purchase is right there with the New Tech Network Contract.<br /><br />NTN non-competitive bid without seeking exemptions from competitive bidding. The Superintendent and four Board members do not care about State Laws or Board policies.<br /><br />The lack of competitive bidding on MAP may be at issue as well. Although a "sole source justification form" was completed and signed by appropriate parties .. does the product do what was claimed? ... Did MGJ have a conflict of interest.<br /><br />For rational the SSJ form says see the School Board Action Report.<br /><br />I do not believe the MAP product is useful for analyzing mastery of grade level skills and that is what is needed for determining who needs effective interventions. The teachers I've spoken with are not receiving useful information from this test. So why are we spending so much time testing?dan dempseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15536720661510933983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-53547046956478510982010-10-27T15:58:29.246-07:002010-10-27T15:58:29.246-07:00wseadawg, the smart people are running scared, kee...wseadawg, the smart people are running scared, keeping their heads down. The Orcs are in charge, starting with the Foundation bosses down to MGJ and her minions.<br /><br />Seattle, this is us in a few months...<br />http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/27/as-boston-schools-close-s_n_774796.htmlmirmac1https://www.blogger.com/profile/10183460709639638172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-51578282078363834902010-10-27T14:03:18.557-07:002010-10-27T14:03:18.557-07:00Kathy, you nailed it precisely. How can we be spe...Kathy, you nailed it precisely. How can we be spending money on all this unproven, controversial, cumbersome testing when basic needs are so stark and unmet. The only way this happens is when we put the foxes in charge of the hen-houses. <br /><br />It's time for civil protests. This just can't go on any longer in this district. It's absurd, but what is much, much worse, is this: It's hurting kids and hurting families. <br /><br />I'm ready to take a sledgehammer to the MAP computers and drag the tech department out of JSCEE one at a time, by the ears. All this monkeying around with millions of dollars in tech-based solutions isn't teaching one kid a damn thing. It's such a boondoggle that I'm tired of even hearing about it. <br /><br />Where-Oh-where are the smart people in JSCEE?wseadawghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08750439461734046035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-17168017993752749372010-10-27T13:14:59.956-07:002010-10-27T13:14:59.956-07:00Interesting point:
Prof says most of us don't...Interesting point:<br /><a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/22/AR2010102205451.html" rel="nofollow"> Prof says most of us don't need much math anyway</a>Sahilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11610179287237833742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-34017916843398068922010-10-27T13:07:21.866-07:002010-10-27T13:07:21.866-07:00parents threaten to boycott test and leave distric...<a href="http://www.greeleytribune.com/article/20101026/NEWS/101029796/1051&ParentProfile=1001" rel="nofollow">parents threaten to boycott test and leave district</a>Sahilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11610179287237833742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-49664487878979238172010-10-27T13:05:50.208-07:002010-10-27T13:05:50.208-07:00standardised testing - what are we doing to our ch...<a href="http://sahilachangebringer.blogspot.com/2010/10/standardised-testing-what-are-we-doing.html" rel="nofollow"> standardised testing - what are we doing to our children and their teachers? Opt out!</a><br /><br /><a href="http://www.facebook.com/SOSMTMNEWS#!/pages/Parents-Kids-Against-Standardized-Testing/117479641627357" rel="nofollow">Parents & Kids Against Standardised Testing</a><br /><br /><a href="http://www.publicpolicyblogger.com/2010/10/preserving-public-in-public-education.html" rel="nofollow"> preserving the public in public education</a>Sahilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11610179287237833742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-44247243832545829962010-10-27T12:56:32.120-07:002010-10-27T12:56:32.120-07:00Wow Kathy. In a nutshell, yes!Wow Kathy. In a nutshell, yes!mirmac1https://www.blogger.com/profile/10183460709639638172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-82639097758800197782010-10-27T12:27:40.590-07:002010-10-27T12:27:40.590-07:00For me, we're talking about cost: benefit.
He...For me, we're talking about cost: benefit.<br /><br />Here is the dollar breakdown:<br />$4M computers for MAP<br />$400K per year for MAP x2<br />$12.5M infrastruture to tie<br /> in teacher effectiveness/<br /> student advancement in 34 <br /> schools. Remember,<br /> this is highly <br /> controversial<br />Unknown millions to add infra<br /> structure to remaining 58 <br /> schools.<br /><br />To me, benefit doesn't add up. Particularily when core positions aren't filled. <br /><br />We have the results, our school has 300 students not meeting math standards and 250 below reading. No tutors, no resource people...nada. District blabbers about state cuts, blah, blah, blah.<br /><br />Another school of about 1400 students continually fund raise for basics. Not to mention, they run out of paper.<br /><br />Huge issues around funding for sp. ed.<br /><br />Remember, we're loosing milllions in state funds, district is setting up non-sustainable ed. reform initiatives. We WILL be loosing more dollars out of kids classrooms.<br /><br />Don't think it is worth it...other ways to deal with issues.Kathynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-32928551549988099762010-10-27T11:36:15.349-07:002010-10-27T11:36:15.349-07:00Great conversation. No time to elaborate at the m...Great conversation. No time to elaborate at the moment, but just wanted to compliment the thoughtful posts.none1111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-27338089343198141392010-10-27T10:14:03.426-07:002010-10-27T10:14:03.426-07:00It's a HUGE improvement for kids who have achi...<i>It's a HUGE improvement for kids who have achievement levels outside the average for a given grade.</i><br /><br />I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, it is good to have some measure in parents' hands that goes beyond the "at standard" results of the old WASL.<br /><br />On the other hand, I'm not sure if I'd want the MAP forcing the teacher to seek ever higher MAP scores for my kid.<br /><br />Sometimes that's not the right choice.<br /><br />For instance, my kid did very well on the math portion of the MAP, getting a score that is far above the expectation for the grade.<br /><br />I noticed, however, that my kid spent a looooong time on the math portion of the MAP test (minutes spent on the test was included in the data we received). My kid understands a lot of concepts involved in basic arithmetic and has the tool kit to work things out correctly, but very, very slooowly.<br /><br />As far as I'm concerned, the kid needs to get much, much more proficient and speedy in math. I'd like to see my kid offered something intellectually stimulating, but I'm also perfectly happy to see my kid work through a lot of the sort of problems that they already "passed" on the MAP. I don't want my kid to be skipped over a bunch of material. There is value in practice to obtain fluency.<br /><br />Isn't this the point of the advanced learning programs? Just because a kid is advanced along one dimension of the academic continuum doesn't mean that the best next step is to treat them like a kid two or three years older.<br /><br />I'm not sure the MAP paradigm for growth really reflects what my kid needs right now.Birdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16540428343439198125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-66234798405938352662010-10-27T10:12:45.653-07:002010-10-27T10:12:45.653-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Birdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16540428343439198125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-27378195339791489802010-10-27T10:08:20.206-07:002010-10-27T10:08:20.206-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Birdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16540428343439198125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-5491458523896160462010-10-27T09:41:07.109-07:002010-10-27T09:41:07.109-07:00If a fair bidding process is followed, the public ...If a fair bidding process is followed, the public can assume that a quality product was selected. That's the point of a fair and transparent process. So no we can't conclude the MAP is CRAP (in a relative sense) but we know for sure no one every looked very hard at it. <br /><br />I don't think this district GETS that doing things the right way in the first place might save load of money and headaches. They are too caught up in the power of doing whatever they want, regardless of the consequences.Chris S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17016898261120819596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-37956608507371360492010-10-27T09:38:27.947-07:002010-10-27T09:38:27.947-07:00I wonder if it would be possible to give the MAP i...I wonder if it would be possible to give the MAP in the cafeteria, using a cart full of laptops. Would probably need some power strips, but it would leave the library free.Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16260807460417787614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-79151592014906001692010-10-27T09:35:22.612-07:002010-10-27T09:35:22.612-07:00Pooh-poohing the fact MAP makes buttloads of money...Pooh-poohing the fact MAP makes buttloads of money is like saying it was perfectly alright for Goldman Sachs and Enron to make obscene profits off hapless homeowners and grannies. NWEA are pushing a product (very aggressively I might add) that has not been shown in a qualitative analysis to do all the wonderful things SPS admin would have you think. NWEA is used to getting their customers through backdoor means, having gone through an actual competitive procurement only once (and lost BTW). They have $$$ in their eyes thanks to taxpayer stimilus, levy and grant monies.<br /><br />So, yes, as parents we have every right to question whether the use of this product is truly to benefit our children, and is the best use of our limited education funds.mirmac1https://www.blogger.com/profile/10183460709639638172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-14301942662222592142010-10-27T09:29:45.411-07:002010-10-27T09:29:45.411-07:00"1) It's a HUGE improvement for kids who ..."1) It's a HUGE improvement for kids who have achievement levels outside the average for a given grade."<br /><br />This is another thing I like. I have a 1st grader who is bored out of her mind, doing easy K work. The teacher has been at the school for a very long time. People tell me, Oh well, she'll come out of there learning to read! But she went IN reading at the 2nd grade level. <br /><br />This teacher does NOT differentiate. A MAP test will look at how all kids progress, not just the bulge in the middle. They can't ignore the low kids and just pass them on, knowing they did their job with MOST of the kids. Same with the high kids.<br /><br />This teacher has been a problem for high kids for years, and no amount of complaining has changed things. Now there will be some objective data to hold her feet to the fire.<br /><br />Mom of 2 SPS kidsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-45308765070943503032010-10-27T09:06:59.688-07:002010-10-27T09:06:59.688-07:00i've not made up my mind about the MAP, but on...i've not made up my mind about the MAP, but one thing I like about it is that teachers get results while the kids are still in their classes. I can't see how a test at the end of the year helps the teachers adjust....those kids are gone and it's time to start with a new bunch.<br /><br />With the MAP, they will know how they compare with other, 3rd grades say, in the middle of the year. I can see this concentrating the teachers' minds a bit, no matter how good the teacher: it's feedback.<br /><br />I had an ex-military guy working for me back when I was in the corporate world. He'd say "What's not inspected, gets neglected." Just human nature.<br /><br />Mom to 2 SPS kidsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com