Sunday, March 19, 2017

Bill in Legislature -

This will affect several hundred Seattle High School students.
There are two bills currently moving through the legislature that would require 4 year colleges and universities in the state to grant credit for AP exam scores of 3 or better.
SB 5234  and HB1333
The bills do not mention IB.
 If you have a feeling about this, please call or email your legislative team about this.  On their webpages there is a place where you can send a message – 1000 character limit.
Things are moving fast – please let them know your feelings about this.
If you need more info, you might want to reference that there are 23 IB high schools in Washington, and 19 of them are public schools.  Many of the public schools are in very diverse/high poverty areas communities, like South Seattle/S. King County, Tukwila, Tacoma, and Kennewick. 
(School list from the IB website.  I looked up some of the schools’ websites to determine what their FRL numbers looked like.  Kennewick is 70% FRL, Thomas Jefferson in Fed Way is 55% FRL for example.)
To find your district

16 comments:

Josh Hayes said...

Could someone with a horse in this race explain the upside/downside of this? As someone on the teaching end of AP classes, I'm uncomfortable requiring colleges to assign credit to "3" scores on AP tests, which seem to me to be pretty damn under-powered. I know from my son's experience that IB courses, and the associated tests, are every bit as stringent as AP, so, Michael, is that your suggestion? That IB tests should be given the same recognition (for a score of, say, 4 or higher?)?

I have no particular view on this, but I will say based on what I see from students who've taken running start classes that WILL get college credit allocation, IB classes are every bit as stringent if not more.

Eric B said...

I'm with Josh on this. I don't think it necessarily serves students to receive credit for a 3 on an AP test. I do think that IB SL classes should be given equal weight to a one-year AP class.

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Anonymous said...

Josh is right on. The College Board makes money off of AP tests. A 3 is a weak score but the college board wants money so if getting a 3 saves one tuition dollars kids will likely take more tests.

The elite Harvey Mudd College (average entering frosh SAT math score 790) prefers that nearly all students take Calculus I.
If you wish to skip it. Take the BC Calculus Test and get a 5 score, otherwise take Calc I. If a kid can score the 5 on the BC test, then the college will evaluate the student's knowledge and place the student appropriately.

My thought is that a 3 is inadequate and mandating course credit for a 3 may misplace the student and make life difficult for a student in math or hard sciences.

25 Years ago my oldest son entered NYU. He had 6 credits in acting from Yale University the previous summer. NYU said they would accept the 6 credits but only as a general elective. In other words my son still had to take all NYU courses required for a BFA without counting his 6 credits. He did get to use the 6 credits to get 128 credits for graduation.

I would like to see universities make reasoned determinations about AP credit vs having the legislature mandate specific action.

-- Dan Dempsey

Anonymous said...

Most universities require a 4 or higher for an AP class to count.

HP

Anonymous said...

When I took AP Bio many years ago, colleges often offered credit for a 3, but only for elective (as Dan describes). I entered college with credits, but still had to take intro bio. I think that works well. -TeacherMom

Anonymous said...

It can be helpful to consider credit separately from placement. A university can offer credit (for a specific course or general elective) and separately decide what course to place a student into. I would hope the legislature does not get involved in placement decisions because course content changes from year to year and universities are in the best position to know what is appropriate.

For cost savings purposes some universities offer credits for AP or IB but allow the student the option of declining the credit (in total or for each individual exam), for example if accepting the credit would damage their scholarship eligibility, or exclude them from a desirable course. So I might support a requirement for universities to OFFER credit but not a requirement to GIVE credit.

Irene

Chris said...

Dan, the current text of both bills does require the colleges to adopt an "evidence-based" policy about granting credit for scores of 3, which I think gets the legislature out of the business of actually granting credit. It makes the bill pretty toothless, though. "Please think about granting credit for scores of 3! And post your policy on your web site!"

As for AP versus IB, that's a straight-up social justice issue, and the bill is hypocritical. The current bill's legislative findings refer to under-represented minorities and low-income students taking AP. The truth is, statewide, 56% of IB students are persons of color versus 38% of AP students; 36% of IB participants are eligible for subsidized lunches, as opposed to 28% of AP enrollees.

There is one public university in Washington (WGU) that doesn't offer credit for any IB scores, and as far as I know, none offer credit for subsidiary level IB tests (which as noted elsewhere are the rough equivalent of a one-year AP class.) Treating IB and AP equally is a matter of fairness.

Michael Rice said...

Actually, for WSU & UW, 3 is the magic number on AP exams. I want to say as someone who teaches AP Stats at Ingraham and Math 146 (Intro Stats) at North Seattle, these class are a 99% match, and anyone of the AP Stats students who gets a 3 or above would be at least a B student in Math 146 at North.

https://admission.wsu.edu/apply/as/freshmen/ap-ib-and-running-start/ap-credit-chart/

http://admit.washington.edu/apply/freshman/policies/advanced-placement

I also teach IB Math Studies and I want it to be known that students who get the IB diploma have worked harder, dug deeper, analyzed more, thought more critically, and wrote more research papers (including a 4,000 word essay) than any AP student.

Notice the credit policy is not nearly as generous, even though IB is a much more demanding program.

https://admission.wsu.edu/apply/as/freshmen/ap-ib-and-running-start/ib-credit-chart/

http://admit.washington.edu/apply/freshman/policies/international-baccalaureate

I want to say that I am not here ripping on AP. I love teaching AP Statistics. I want IB to be recognized for the demanding program that it is and to be rewarded accordingly.

Melissa Westbrook said...

It would be great for legislators to hear from you teachers because you are on-the-ground and know the curriculum for both.

Po3 said...

Depends on the subject

For math, only students who take AP Calc and AP Stats can earn any college math credits. If a student gets a 3 on an AP Calc test, then I say yeah to you kiddo---you probably don't need to take any beginning level college math.

On the other hand: Any 11th/12th grader can enroll in an AP English class and based on what I have seen in AP LA, I do not think a 3 on a test should earn a student a pass on college English. In doing so, it does them a huge disservice.

Can't comment on Science, History, or Art AP exams as none of my students took them.

Watching said...

Keep am eye on HB 1046:


"Requirements for graduating from high school are decoupled from statewide high school assessments by discontinuing the CAA, the earning of which is currently required as proof that a student has successfully met standard on statewide assessments required for graduation.'

This bill passed in the House and was heard in the Senate, today.

http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2017-18/Pdf/Bill%20Reports/House/1046-S%20HBR%20APH%2017.pdf

Anonymous said...

Seriously!!! NO SBAC graduation requirement???? Is that possibly right? No special CIA (certificate of individual achievement)? Sounds too good to be true - and the death knell of the SBAC, the WASL, the MSP, the EOC, and all their relatives.

All that suffering. For nothing.

parent

Watching said...

The majority of testimony was in support of HB 1046. Many stories of special education students, loss of elective classes, homeless students denied graduation certificates, successful Running Start students that didn't have the capacity to pass a single math test etc.

LEV and Stand for Children stood in opposition to HB 1046.

Lynn said...

The Bill is in the Senate Committee on Early Learning and K-12 Education now. It passed in the Senate 92-6.

Melissa Westbrook said...

I heard this about HB 1333:

Tina Orwall, of the 33rd,is trying to work with someone on the Higher Ed Ctm to amend the bill to include IB.