Friday Open Thread
Teens and sleep talk at Pacific Science Center, May 29th.
Seattle International Film Festival has started. Lots of good films for kids as well as other activities.
Shooting at a Texas high school this morning leaves at least eight dead.
Advanced Learning Task Force
Update: Yes, his meeeting for tomorrow is cancelled. end of update Director DeWolf was scheduled to have a community meeting tomorrow but it has disappeared off the district calendar. I have a call in to confirm.
What's on your mind?
Seattle International Film Festival has started. Lots of good films for kids as well as other activities.
Shooting at a Texas high school this morning leaves at least eight dead.
A suspect in the shooting at Santa Fe High School has been arrested, assistant principal Cris Richardson told reporters near the school.A second person has been detained as well, Harris County Sheriff Ed Gonzalez said on Twitter.Witnesses described students running from the school as they heard gunshots; they also described hearing an alarm at the school, though the sequence of events wasn't immediately clear.An armed person walked into an art class at the school and began firing what looked like a shotgun, a witness told CNN affiliate KTRK.
Damning report from KING 5 tv about Special Education student inclusion in Washington State public schools."We were all standing (outside), but not even five minutes later, we started hearing gunshots," she said. "And then everybody starts running, but like the teachers are telling us to stay put, but we're all just running away."
A KING 5 investigation found that Washington schools exclude students with disabilities from general education settings more often than schools in nearly every other state in the country.The YMCA in South Seattle is ending its partnership, Powerful Schools programs, that provided summer school and after-school programs for children in that region. From the South Seattle Emerald:
That’s not supposed to happen under state and federal law. Public schools in the United States are required to provide specialized educational services to all children with a disability recognized under the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA).
That law guarantees that the more than 150,000 special education students in Washington have a right to go to school in the “least restrictive environment.” It means they should get the opportunity — to the maximum extent appropriate — to learn in a general education setting around children who are not disabled, even if they can’t keep up academically or if schools have to modify the way the children learn with extra support.
Inclusion helps students with disabilities perform better academically, she said, but it also gives these students a sense of belonging that encourages them to finish school.
That's noteworthy because only 58 percent of Washington special education students got diplomas in 2016. A 50-state analysis of graduation rates reported to the U.S. Department of Education shows that just 12 states, including Alaska, Georgia and South Carolina, graduated fewer kids with learning disabilities than Washington that year.
But the state is not forking out enough money to its schools to fund the actual cost of providing services to kids who have special needs, a KING 5 investigation found. That shortfall forced the state's school districts to come up with nearly $165 million in taxpayer dollars on their own to help cover their special education expenses in the 2015-2016 school year, according to OSPI.
In early 2018 the YMCA abruptly decided the financial cost of keeping Powerful Schools running was too much for the organization to bear. The YMCA states they are losing $1.3-million every year running the program. CEO Bob Gilbertson said at a parent meeting that philanthropic and government funding has shifted away from funding the program.There's several district taskforces to apply for:
The merger between Powerful Schools and the Y was heralded as a way to help families thrive but has instead harmed communities of color. The Y is choosing to leave when things are hard rather than fight to stay and support children they said they wanted to help. Now families and schools are forced to figure what we will do for summer and after-school care.
Advanced Learning Task Force
Application deadline May 24, noon
Transportation Services Task Force
Transportation Services Task Force
Application deadline May 23
Science Instructional Materials Adoption Committees
Two committees: Grades K-5 and Grades 6-8. You may join the K-5 committee or the Grades 6-8 committee.
Science Instructional Materials Adoption Committees
Two committees: Grades K-5 and Grades 6-8. You may join the K-5 committee or the Grades 6-8 committee.
Application deadline May 29, 9 a.m.
Update: Yes, his meeeting for tomorrow is cancelled. end of update Director DeWolf was scheduled to have a community meeting tomorrow but it has disappeared off the district calendar. I have a call in to confirm.
Comments
If the state is not giving enough money to the district to support IEPs, is that including safety net money?
http://www.k12.wa.us/SpecialEd/Finance-Grants/SafetyNet.aspx
How many people who are homeless could have benefitted from their education being better funded?
Geez
My daughter was violently pushed to the ground in kindergarten by another child. She had a skinned knee. It was witnessed by a teacher. My child was not interacting with the kid, she was, as the teacher said, "At the wrong place at the wrong time." The child had a traumatic brain injury, and he assaulted a lot of other children, even after he had a full-time para assisting. The child was strong, and capable of lifting and throwing desks. Explosive anger without warning--it was frightening. Lots of meetings at the school. I know the child didn't return the next year. Everyone wanted to be supportive of the child, but also wanted and needed their children to be safe.
This year, another child at the school physically assaulted a child, and an ambulance was called. Apparently that child is now in residential care.
Why are other kids allowed to be punching bags until its determined that "least restrictive environment" doesn't work? Why don't they start with more restrictive environments, and work up to least restrictive?
SICKANDTIRED
The city's $930M transportation levy will end-up being a bunch of unfulfilled promises. The city has spent $125,000 last year on a leadership coach to work with its executives to “build more trust and improve morale.” SDOT has spent $275,000 on leadership coaching since 2016.
The city mismanaged their pension fund which now costs taxpayers an additional $100M per year.
Over-runs on four projects cost taxpayers $200M. This includes $43M overspend on City Light's billing system.
Cost of reviewing over- budget street car- $400K
I think citizens of Seattle are beginning to notice city incompetence.
Here’s the law in public school.
§§300.114
LRE
Each public agency must ensure that—
(i) To the maximum extent appropriate, children with disabilities, including children in public or private institutions or other care facilities, are educated with children who are nondisabled; and
(ii) Special classes, separate schooling, or other removal of children with disabilities from the regular educational environment occurs only if the nature or severity of the disability is such that education in regular classes with the use of supplementary aids and services cannot be achieved satisfactorily.
§§300.116
PLACEMENT
The child’s placement—
(1) Is determined at least annually;
(2) Is based on the child’s IEP; and
(3) Is as close as possible to the child’s home;
(c) Unless the IEP of a child with a disability requires some other arrangement, the child is educated in the school that he or she would attend if nondisabled;
(d) In selecting the LRE, consideration is given to any potential harmful effect on the child or on the quality of services that he or she needs; and
(e) A child with a disability is not removed from education in age-appropriate regular classrooms solely because of needed modifications in the general education curriculum.
Getta Grip
zeb
Zeb, that's a good question. I think it's a two-fold issue. One, that the program is not as diverse as it should be and that's an entirely valid issue. It's odd that not enough has been done to change that for all the equity as a byword in the district. Both the Board and the district seem okay with dragging their feet on this issue.
Two, there are many parents and teachers and administrators that simply do not believe in any kind of separate programming for students. Some of it may be they think all kids have things to learn from one another and better to have a wider variety of kids in the classroom. Some believe that somehow kids who are in a separate program get more than kids in a gen ed classroom (almost zero to that belief but it exists). Some of it today seems to be a way to end HC because of some kind of egalitarian notion that teachers will be able to differentiate in classrooms with that wide variety of students AND large class sizes.
Maybe it's technology that will get that to happen but I doubt it.
And some people think kids should just be in their neighborhood schools.
Zeb, I hope that was an honest question and not one meant to start an escalating discussion.
If you ask me, the fuss should be over who needs something different, how we ID them, and how do we redesign our services to get what they need? But clearly I'm not in charge.
all types
Getta Grip, she didn't say there was an IA. I have seen how a one-on-one IA can really help the child
Whiny SickAndTired sez:
The child had a traumatic brain injury, and he assaulted a lot of other children, even after he had a full-time para assisting. The child was strong, and capable of lifting and throwing desks.... [whah whah. My kid got a skinned knee EVEN AFTER THERE WAS A FULLYTIME PARA ASSISTING]. [ I attribute herculean superpowers to disabled kindergarten with traumatic brain injury, He should be kicked out].
Why don't they start with more restrictive environments, and work up to least restrictive
Uhhh. Melissa, an IA is a para. Yes there was one. And there seems to have been a perfectly fine teacher busy witnessing. All teachers are responsible for all students. It sounds like plenty of support available and paid for by SPS. But this person thinks “somewhere else” is better for undesirables. And, we should start with the most restrictive instead of least restrictive. Sounds like SicKAndTired’s kid woulda started in some “restrictive” setting (wouldn’t everyone?, you never know who needs it) and then moved up and out. Earning her right to a normal class. But, the same kid, or another, would have still “assaulted” her.
Getta
I see the point of the parents of self-contained gifted kids, their kids need to go faster, but I also see how other parents could be feeling they get the short end of the stick since they have kids who would also benefit by being self-contained in a group of their intellectual peers.
It seems like grouping all kids into self-contained classrooms of similar ability would be a way to help all kids do their best. I can't imagine it is easy to teach across so many levels of ability that are found in general education classroom.
Why doesn't the district look at more ability grouping and more self-contained classrooms and not try to get rid of the ones they have?
zeb
Jane
Ten year ago, this was APP's statement of purpose:
"The primary purpose of APP is to provide differentiated, challenging curriculum for highly capable students that meets their intellectual needs while still being sensitive to their developmental level. Our...curriculum combines acceleration and enrichment to promote learning at a pace, depth, and intensity appropriate to the capacity of academically gifted learners."
If 1st grader is achieving at the level of a 4th grader, it's not the "struggling kids" who are impeding learning, it's that the 1st grade class is covering 1st grade skills and concepts - because it's a 1st grade class. It would be developmentally inappropriate to skip that student to 3rd or 4th grade. Cohort based classes allow advancement with similar aged peers.
wayback machine
The HCC issue is part of much bigger philosophical issues at play in the district, which really don't just have to do with HC students. It goes well beyond that. There has been a misunderstanding and an oversimplification of detracking and inclusion. Just because these are OFTEN forces for good does not mean that in every case they are ALWAYS forces for good. HCC is caught in that battle, but HCC students aren't the only ones.
Some students benefit from having access to peers who are like them, from not being the only one like them in their class or school.
This can be true for a variety of students. Is it better to force Native American students to all attend their neighborhood schools even if there is one Native student at each assignment area school? What if this robs that one student of access to other Native American peers ? Or the chance to set aside a very general common core lesson on "What is Culture?" and focus on a very specific lesson about the Standing Rock water protectors? The chance to build community and make connections? Do Native students benefit more from having access to other Native peers or by bringing "diversity" to students at assignment area schools?
Do deaf and hard of hearing students benefit from access to other peers like them? Does this help them learn language and allow opportunities to socialize with peers like themselves? There are numerous studies that show that mainstreamed deaf/hard of hearing students experience isolation and numerous articles citing a huge risk factor to mainstreaming deaf/hoh children because it increases isolation for that student without access to peers like them.
Do GLBTQ students benefit from having access to GLBTQ peers? It increases isolation for that student to not have access to peers like them.
Do HC students benefit from having access to HC peers? It increases isolation for that student to not have access to peers like them.
Do African American students benefit from attending a school where they are not the only African American student at the school?
In general, in a SPED context, the point to inclusion is making sure students have access to the least restrictive environment.
But for so many categories of students, inclusion performed blindly (by mandatory attendance of a geographically assigned school which can result in depriving the student of peers like them) can CAUSE ISOLATION when students are a member of a minority group. Detracking and inclusion have been shown to be forces for good in some contexts, but it is not in the best interest of ALL students to merely blindly apply detracking/forced inclusion without attention to the needs of the particular student in question.
Should all Native American students be required to just attend their geozoned schools? Because you want to hear some colonial era names? Ballard, Roosevelt Ingraham, Garfield, Franklin, Hale...
Major Edward Sturgis Ingraham became the first superintendent of Seattle Public Schools in 1882, having served as King County Superintendent of Schools from 1876. Because Ingraham was an avid mountaineer (successfully climbing Mt. Rainier 11 times), the students chose the nickname "The Mountaineers," with the "Ram" as their mascot. The school newspaper became the Cascade and the yearbook, the Glacier. The school colors of blue, white, and gray symbolize snow-capped mountains on a blue horizon.
google it
I think that feeling - "my kid is slowed down because of kids who are at grade level or struggling - is not the majority feeling of HC parents. They just want their kids' academic needs met. If we had lower class sizes and PD for teachers on differentiation plus maybe some resources to help teachers who have no training in gifted students, it could be done.
Isolation from Peers, excellent overview of the issue for many other students. In fact, there was quite a back and forth between a Native American leader and Director Geary because many in the Native American community (including I believe Director Pinkham) want either a K-12 school for Native American students (and anyone else who wants to attend). Or, get back Indian Heritage High School.
It's important to ask students and parents what THEY want.
However, in reality, the range of abilities in a self-contained HCC class is likely to be just as great as in a GE class that doesn't include HC students.
The district seems intent upon moving to a more one-size-fits-all approach, even though we all know it doesn't. Forcing HC students into GE classes when they already know the material and are likely to be socially isolated is not a recipe for success--for those students, or for the district overall.
As to those oft-cited studies that show low-achieving students benefit from being placed in grade-level or even honors classes, and that such a practice doesn't negatively impact other students overall, did anyone ever bother to look at HC or gifted students specifically? I have never found such a study.
all types
In a general education class there can be students who are native born yet speak another language at home and are very far behind in reading and writing. Likewise there are students for whom math is an immense struggle yet they are in classes with other students who are very proficient. There are special education kids who get an occasional pull-out but can not keep up in the classroom.
Would not grouping of these general education students have the same positive benefits that it gives to HCC students? The HCC may have quite a bit of range in ability, but due the fact that a battery of tests are a requirement of entry, there is a very solid floor of ability that does not exist in the general education classrooms.
Why won't the district provide the same treatment to all students? Not to sound like a broken record, but it seems it would help all the kids.
zeb
In HCC, those third graders may be working on fifth grade work instead. There may be some new to the program who are still at the third or fourth grade level and who will need extra attention to catch up, and there may be some working above fifth grade level who need additional challenges.
HCC can help "fine tube" instruction by breaking the ability and achievement ranges into smaller chunks. Breaking things into ever smaller chunks could be helpful--with the most extreme example being tailoring everything to each individual student--but that's not really practical, and there are also risks political and academic risks associated with that. Even proving special services for HC students seems to be increasingly unpalatable to SOS, so I wouldn't look for further divisions anytime soon.
All tyoes
Sure there are pull-outs, but not everyday. Many days those students are at the mercy of volunteers showing up to take them out in the hall to work on completely different work.
I would like to see all schools divided by ability. For, example, if there three 3rd grade classrooms, just separate the kids by ability and have at least one walk-to a a day for math.
If there was a daily walk-to for math and reading/writing it wouldn't even be necessary to group each classroom.
As anyone who has children who have been in a self-contained gifted classroom knows, grouping by ability works. The problem I have is why doesn't the district extend those benefits to all students?
zeb
In my personal opinion, HCC is not about the floor, it's about the ceiling. All students should have a ceiling that allows them to grow at school.
As I mentioned, blocking two classes a day, one for math and one for reading/writing with subsequent walk-to's would provide environments similar to HCC for all students and academic growth should increase substantially.
As students progress through the levels of school, ability grouping becomes more and more prevalent until college, when it is done to even access a particular school.
What is cause of the seeming the phobia against grouping at the elementary level in SPS?
zeb
1) My child was in kindergarten 3 years ago. She came home in November and said, "I don't want to go to school anymore because of mean boys." She showed me her skinned knees. She was 5 and had a hard time articulating more about the incident that caused her skinned knees. The parent/teacher conference was less than a week away so I waited to address it with her teacher.
2) I discussed that my kid was upset at the parent/teacher conference. The teacher told me she witnessed a playground incident where a young boy out of nowhere came up to my kid and pushed her to the ground. She said the young boy "was on the school's radar." She said my kid was not interacting with the child, she was "just in the wrong place at the wrong time." The teacher obviously couldn't say more because of confidentiality rules. I was disappointed that the teacher hadn't told me about the incident when it happened, but otherwise she was a great teacher.
3) Later, I learned who the boy was. He had a traumatic brain injury. He was in my child's grade, but not her class. The parents in the child's classroom had been up in arms because some of their kids were getting injured when he lashed out in violent tantrums. It took a lot of time (I think February, i.e. six months after school started) before there was a para. There were problems even when there was a para, because the kid was strong and had explosive anger. There were lots of parent meetings at the school over this issue.
4) The child did not return to my kids' school the following year.
5) This year, another child in my daughter's grade (not classroom) assaulted another child, and the injury was bad enough that an ambulance had to be called. That child is now in institutional care.
6) If worrying about the safety of elementary school children is whiny, I am WHINY.
7) The notion that I would consider private school made me spit out my coffee in laughter. I am as prole as they come. Neither of my grandfathers finished the fourth grade. I went to public schools all the way through. I am totally in support of special ed kids being in general ed. I don't want VIOLENT kids to be environments where they are likely to harm others. And yes, I don't know why non-violent kids have to be the cannon fodder for violent kids until the violent kids have enough incidents where they are finally pulled out of general ed classrooms. Somehow, I made it through k-12 public school without ever being assaulted beyond boys pulling on my pigtails in elementary school and some butt pinching by boys in high school. Neither caused me physical or emotional harm.
8) Although I never had the opportunity to attend either private school or etiquette classes, I would never call Getta Grip presumptuous or mean-spirited. Good thing I read all those Jane Austen novels from the public library to train me on high class behavior.
SICKANDTIRED
I don't know that separating kids out by ability early on and creating a bunch of different levels is the answer. If the goal of third grade it to be able to get everyone to, or closer to, the third grade level, perhaps the teacher, in conjunction with all the additional supports that are available, can handle that through the level of differentiation that is usually possible (via in-class groupings and external services/supports). Differentiation for students significantly above grade-level, however, is usually not part of the mix--it's just not a priority in classrooms. That's one one of the reasons for HCC. Differentiation for students below level, however, is usually a priority.
A logistical complication of the approach you suggest is that "third grade" starts to be a meaningless term. If we have 3a, 3b, 3c, 3d, 3e, etc., each with students of different abilities, what does it mean to complete 3rd grade? What if the student moves schools? Can students move up/down, or are they stuck in tracks? Are those in lower levels getting a third-grade education in name only--are we teaching 3rd grade curriculum at the first grade level with first grade expectations?
Politically, it's even more complicated...and I don't think you're find anyone at JSCEE or on the board who wants to go that route. They want more standardization, not less. Looking at our K readiness data, state test score data, graduation rates, comments by Garfield principal Ted Howard, etc., it appears likely that that further segregating students by current ability/achievement would create the appearance of new racial/ethnic disparities, and nobody wants that. Those disparities may already exist, but this approach would likely provide more data on a problem schools don't want to admit.
There don't seem to be any easy answers here.
all types
They should be afforded the same opportunities HCC students receive, a learning environment with a floor of ability, at least in math and reading/writing.
Being placed in a group within a classroom and ignored, as you described, is not a solution. Being placed in a classroom with a floor of ability is a solution and can be done at every school. I understand it is done at schools like TOPS and Hazel Wolf and perhaps others.
I also think you have been misinformed about Principal Howard's actions at Garfield. Previously, when honors and non-honors classes were offered for freshperson LA, they were chosen by the students, not by the school based an ability. The goal was integrate students by force who were choosing to segregate themselves.
As far as tracking, HCC is the ultimate in tracking. When students attend separate schools based on ability or any completely self-contained environment, such as at the schools with the old self-contained Spectrum, then you have a track that excludes and inhibits exiting.
I remember at Whittier, students who tested into Spectrum were stuck in general education classrooms because there were wait lists for the self-contained classrooms.
Advanced work should be available to any student who needs it and struggling students should be given all the attention they need to succeed.
Pull-outs are not as effective, in my experience, as a classroom full of students working together in a somewhat similar range.
My experience was in a math class working at grade level with students who could easily have been working a grade ahead and students who had no grasp of the material being presented. It was beyond sad, it was in my mind, criminal. Other instances of non-grouping that I have witnessed are too disturbing to even discuss here.
If there was a walk-to provided for these students, the kids who needed help would be less behind in their class and those who could do more would have a chance to go faster in theirs.
I just don't understand why HCC parents, of whom I include "all types" based on their comments, refuse to advocate for the same type of educational opportunities their children receive. Why do parents at TOPS and Hazel Wolf receive thees opportunities while other students do not?
Equity is not about putting more black kids in HCC, it's about giving every student in SPS the chance to do challenging work and reach their potential.
Those opportunities should not be reserved just for the few in HCC or at the rare K-8 that has been groomed into a semi-private academy by supportive parents.
zeb
I agree that we should serve "all types" of students well, and SPS doesn't do a good job of that. That's why that's my moniker. The ongoing efforts to move even more toward a one-size-fits-all approach will likely make things worse. I agree that equity is about providing everyone with what they need, and I have often argued against SPS's apparent definition of equity (although their definition seems to change based on context, convenience, etc.) We do a poor job of serving all but the typical students, those who fall in the middle area of the bell curve and who don't have to contend with other issues, like poverty, non-native English speakers, violence in the home, physical or learning disabilities, and so on. Ideally, all students would get what they need, and ideally, SPS would do a better job of identifying students who need whatever, and ideally SPS would do a better job of providing what those students need.
Also for the record, I think HCC is a pretty poor excuse for gifted services. The state, however, has muddied the waters re: whether it's supposed to be for gifted students, high achievers, or both, so that's not surprising. They require different approaches--both for identification, and for instruction.
I'm not sure what special opportunities parents at TOPS and HW have that other parents don't, but I'm all for providing all types of students with the challenge they need to learn and grow. As for "the rare K-8 that has been groomed into a semi-private academy by supportive parents," I have no knowledge of that, but it sounds a little far-fetched. I don't think any SPS schools are like private schools.
I'm not your foe here. I just don't think there's any chance that SPS is going to go in the direction you want, so I'm not going to kill myself fighting a losing battle.
all types
Dual-language and Option schools are, for the most part, hugely popular. I think when I looked at the enrollment data, nearly every single one had a waitlist and even Licton Springs is growing (and hence the growing pains with REGMS).
This was the case when Option schools were Alternative schools. It falls into at least three categories; choice, program focus and other parents.
We've seen that some people feel better if they have a choice where their child goes to school.
Sick and Tired, I have seen both sides of this issue. What I will say is that when the district drags its feet getting a para in place it makes for bad outcomes. All children do need to be educated and deserve inclusion.
But, by the same token, all kids deserve to feel safe in their classrooms. I have seen just how kind and understanding kids can be to other kids who have issues that cause them to act out. But when it escalates to physical violence, it's hard to explain that to a 6-year old.
We've seen that parents like a focus - language, expeditionary, STEM.
We've seen that parents like a school where that focus unites with them with other like-minded parents.
Naturally, the district can't revamp most schools into Option schools but it wouldn't be a bad idea to have more of them.
"Finally, for the record, HC parents ARE often heavily involved with school and DO understand the problems teachers face. We absolutely do NOT want teachers "to teach...HC kids... at the expense of the rest." "
It sounded like you were an HCC parent but I guess your child is HC but not in the cohort? I'd be curious to know where they are(were) getting appropriate service if you would care to share.
It also sounds like we are on the same page regarding providing equal access to challenging work for all students. If my idea of walk-to's for math and reading/writing sounds impractical, what would solve the problem in your opinion?
As far as TOPS and Hazel Wolf are concerned, go visit or hang out when school starts or ends and talk to parents or just catch the vibe. It is what every school should be, not like a private school, but a public school with very engaged parents and obvious input of considerable amounts of money and time. It's a very positive hybrid of public and private, hence the phrase semi-private academy. Personally I think private schools are undemocratic and exemplify elitism.
zeb
Public schools do not all have one uniform vibe, one uniform amount of parent engagement or one uniform level of monetary "input." Public schools are as varied as the public is. And in a country of 325 million people, that is pretty darned varied.
Whether HCC or gen-ed or option, none of these is inherently more challenging than the other. Challenging is in the eye of the beholder. It's all dependent on how closely the child matches an inflexible pre-set curriculum. No one is receiving a customized menu. It's SPS.
Wishitwere
The difference between the general education classrooms and the HCC classrooms is the floor of academic ability in all HCC classrooms. Every students in HCC classrooms has shown the ability to score in the top 2% of American students on the CoGAT aptitude test as well as demonstrate academic achievement in the top 5%, I believe. That is a very high floor and keeps most students within a range of ability that is quite narrow compared to what is found in an average general education classroom.
To be sure there are outliers who can work three, four or more years ahead, but most are working comfortably two years ahead.
zeb
What is your proof that "most are working comfortably two years ahead"? As a volunteer, I can tell you there's still a w i d e range notwithstanding a floor and even the kids recognize it. Moreover, there can be a difference between ability and demonstrated classroom performance for a wide variety of reasons including disability, maturity, interest, trauma or lagging executive function.
I will say that there's probably the greatest range of abilities in high school based on Principal Howard's previous statements.
Wishitwere
Our daughter is entering HCC next year as a 1st grader and may be capable of more than two years ahead, we'll see. Will she be allowed to move ahead at some point if needed?
Cookie
That's a range of five or even six years for a teacher to deal with, and it is going to be the students capable of more advanced work who will most likely be ignored. I think it only fair that all students have range in their classroom that provides them with an opportunity to receive sufficient attention from the teacher and work that will challenge them.
zeb
You've been raising some interesting points on this thread, but on this specific issue I'd like to point out that what you're saying isn't quite right, or at best, misleading. Without getting into gory details, just picture a normal distribution curve with standard deviation lines. Handy picture here. Note that HCC isn't just the top 2% of SPS students, it's quite a bit more than that, so you have to include a good chunk of the portion of the graph that's to the left of 2sigma. The "long tail" to the right flattens, but extends much farther than you think. Those last few students are way out there.
And to be sure, anything to the left of -2sigma (and also some to the right of -2sigma) are in self-contained SpEd classrooms, not general ed. So while there is a great deal of range in general ed classrooms, there's also a very large (unbounded) range in HCC as well. It's probably comparable. And it turns out that students don't match a perfect standard distribution either, they're biased on the upper/right side, but that's another story.
An odd thing that comes out of looking at the data like this is that self-contained Spectrum classes (while they existed, RIP), had BY FAR the narrowest range of any classrooms, without a doubt. A slice of the area between 1sigma and 2sigma, with no long tail involved.
Other than that, carry on. These are worthwhile conversations.
@ Cookie, unfortunately no. You're free to do it on your own time, of course, but in our experience, that's usually it (until high school, when, depending on the subject, you may be able to make it work for 2 years before accessing Running Start or another program). If your student is significantly ahead in only a few subjects, you might consider part-time homeschooling or independent instruction as an option. You might also be able to find online programs that meet your needs, and, in some cases, you can find a school/teacher that will let your child work on their independent work in the classroom instead of the grade-level curriculum. (I suspect that may be more likely in a NON-HCC classroom, where the teacher knows they need to differentiate but doesn't know how they can possibly manage to do so to such a high level, so they may welcome your provision of the curriculum and plan for them.)
@z, thanks for that clear explanation. Since people come and go into these conversations, it's helpful to put that out there every now and again.
all types
The other thing to consider is that it's a lot easier for a teacher to cover material a year or two above and below the curriculum than it is for a teacher to cover material 3, 4, 5 and 6 years above grade level. In some cases, teachers aren't even qualified to cover material that advanced. I don't mean to denigrate teachers, but some HC students can have a much more profound understanding of subjects that interest them than their teachers do.
HCC is comprised almost entirely of "outliers," so what might be considered "extreme outliers" in most situations are more regular occurrences in HCC.
all types
And most classrooms have kids that need extra attention to reach grade-level expectations.
Why can't we have a conversation about how to provide pull-out services in neighborhood school classrooms? It is done in many other parts of the country. Why not here? And to be clear, I do not think putting a kid in front of a computer counts as personalized teaching. Teaching involves a human teacher.
-NW Mom
Has anyone ever had any luck getting differentiation in HCC? I've never heard of such a thing, other than a couple years of walk-to math, which didn't change the level of math being taught, just went through everything more quickly and had more time for games.
I absolutely agree it would be great if all students could get appropriately tailored instruction. Many schools do currently offer walk-to's, and maybe we should have more. (Parents will have to push for them at individual schools, though, given site-based rather than district-based decision-making and a complete lack of enforcement about pretty much anything at the SPS level). (HCC parents could also push for that I suppose, although they'd be subject to even more accusations of elitism, special treatment, etc. and it might not be worth it.)
Do you have other ideas for how all students (whether in GE, special ed, or HCC) can get enrichment and right-level instruction? Should pull-out services be available at all levels? Is this feasible?
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No luck getting differentiation in HCC for us...
NoSuch Luck
SPS has extremely low National Merit Semi-finalists, especially since it's the largest district in the state.
There are few outlier in HCCs based on this evidence, which supports Zeb's assertion that most students in HCC are working withing two grade levels.
Delete Me
I would love a discussion about right-sized services that can be offered at all SPS schools.
I don't think MTSS is feasible in a classroom of 24-29 kids except for the most exceptional of teachers. I don't think putting an elementary school kid in front of a computer should count as a tailored learning program.
I also don't think there is any need to reinvent the wheel. Or even upgrade the wheel. This has been done and continues to be done with some success (yes, and with some drawbacks) across the country. Why is it not possible to study other large school districts to see how they are addressing this? Why do we feel the need to go at this alone? I can tell you how it was done where I grew up. I am sure others have similar experiences. There is a plethora of data out there.
-NW Mom
no name
-NW Mom
These both seem true to me- I wish our program accelerated more, and that we allowed more students to accelerate.
-sleeper
Bellevue Interlake - 27 (23.2%)
Skyline High School - 18 (12.8%)
Lakeside - 16
Inglemoor High School - 15 (14.2%)
Tesla STEM - 14 (2.9%)
Newport High School - 12 (1.8%)
Redmond High School - 11 (11.3%)
Bellevue High School - 11 (9.7%)
Issaquah High School - 10 (7.8%)
Mercer Island - 10 (2.9%)
Interlake is the gifted magnet after which Ingraham's IBX was [loosely] modeled,; all other schools have FRL<15%.
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From what I've heard, parents get their kids taught at advanced levels at all these schools. I'm sure there are parents who aren't happy but I've heard positive things about advanced learning at all of them.
I think that the poster made a good point about trying to see things from the teachers' perspective and helping them see it from the parents'. Also the point about parents being gifted and teachers maybe not, can create some friction. My experience was similar to hers. I learned a lot about myself and about how teachers view their roles.
I learned to respect the years of schooling most had getting masters degrees and advanced teaching certification. They took many classes on educating kids and I learned about how to be a better parent from volunteering at school.
I hope all schools can offer more options regarding advanced coursework and let all kids reach their potential.
Don't forget, last day to apply for the Advanced Learning Task Force!
Formosa
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No name is right: "By that time, outliers may well have jumped ship, maybe because of the lack of differentiation within HCC that we're talking about." I know because my student, and another I know, did just that, for jus that reason. The lack of NMSFs in SPS is because there are few reasons for likely NMSFs to stay in SPS.
Sleeper hit the nail on the head, too. If your intervention isn't good, why should the results be? HC students, like all students, need appropriate instruction to live up to their potential. If SPS isn't providing appropriately advanced and rigorous opportunities for HC students and other schools are, why would you expect SPS HC students to score in the top 1%? If other areas of the state use similar HC eligibility criteria but get better NMSF results, the problem is not likely with the students. It's the program/service.
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