Thurgood Marshall wants a change in HC policy
The principal of Thurgood Marshall Elementary School is asking the Board to change the policy that governs Highly Capable and Advanced Learning. She wants the Board to amend the policy to allow delivery methods other than self-contained classes for Social Studies among other changes. The principal has solicited support from the Thurgood Marshall community to lobby the Board to make the change.
Here is her letter to the Thurgood Marshall community:
Dear Thurgood Marshall Family:
Our PTA is sending out the notes from our last parent coffee, when we discussed our Social Studies plans for next year. We will have a strong curricular focus on Social Studies next year, and as you know, are hoping to integrate our General Education and HCC student for Social Studies classes next year. Because our Highly Capable Cohort (HCC) is a self-contained program, we need approval from the district to be able to blend our classes. Our School Board Curriculum and Instruction committee discussed this in early June, but was not ready to make a recommendation about this change at that time. They will meet again on August 15 at the John Stanford Center Conference room to discuss a change to the HCC policy which would allow school sites to apply for a waiver to the self-contained model for social studies.
The feedback I have received from our parent community has been strongly supportive of this plan. Our school has had support from the Department of Advanced Learning and the Office of Curriculum and Instruction. Our Executive Director, Sarah Pritchett, and our School Board Director, Stephan Blanford, have also expressed their support. Because what happens at our school may also impact policy at other schools with HCC programs, it is important for our other School Board Directors to hear from other parents regarding their support for this change. I would encourage you to share your thoughts with our other School Board Directors and am providing their contact information for you here:
Scott Pinkham – District 1 –scott.pinkham@seattleschools.org
Rick Burke – District 2 – rick.burke@seattleschools.org
Jill Geary – District 3 – jill.geary@seattleschools.org
Sue Peters – District 4 - sue.peters@seattleschools.org
Stephan Blanford (Thurgood Marshall’s school board director – District 5 -stephan.blanford@seattleschools.org
Leslie Harris – District 6 -leslie.harris@seattleschools.org
Betty Patu – District 7 - betty.patu@seattleschools.org
Sincerely,
Katie May, PrincipalThurgood Marshall Elementary
Dear Thurgood Marshall Family:
Our PTA is sending out the notes from our last parent coffee, when we discussed our Social Studies plans for next year. We will have a strong curricular focus on Social Studies next year, and as you know, are hoping to integrate our General Education and HCC student for Social Studies classes next year. Because our Highly Capable Cohort (HCC) is a self-contained program, we need approval from the district to be able to blend our classes. Our School Board Curriculum and Instruction committee discussed this in early June, but was not ready to make a recommendation about this change at that time. They will meet again on August 15 at the John Stanford Center Conference room to discuss a change to the HCC policy which would allow school sites to apply for a waiver to the self-contained model for social studies.
Current Language: The Highly Capable Cohort (HCC) is available to all students identified as Highly Capable in grades K-8. This self-contained, K-8 program provides a rigorous curriculum in language arts, social studies, mathematics and science.
Proposed Language: The Highly Capable Cohort (HCC) service model is self-contained in Grades 1-5 in ELA, math, science, and social studies. A formal waiver to allow flexible grouping of Gen Ed., AL and HC students for social studies may be requested by HC Cohort elementary schools.We believe that the ability to integrate our students for social studies would provide benefits to all of our students. Our staff believes deeply in the importance of teaching our students the 21st Century skills necessary to live and work in a diverse, democratic society. We believe that the best way to prepare our students for a diverse society is to teach these skills not in segregated classrooms, but in a diverse setting. We believe that Social Studies instruction is as much about the process of learning to learn together as it is about the content that we teach.
The feedback I have received from our parent community has been strongly supportive of this plan. Our school has had support from the Department of Advanced Learning and the Office of Curriculum and Instruction. Our Executive Director, Sarah Pritchett, and our School Board Director, Stephan Blanford, have also expressed their support. Because what happens at our school may also impact policy at other schools with HCC programs, it is important for our other School Board Directors to hear from other parents regarding their support for this change. I would encourage you to share your thoughts with our other School Board Directors and am providing their contact information for you here:
Scott Pinkham – District 1 –scott.pinkham@seattleschools.org
Rick Burke – District 2 – rick.burke@seattleschools.org
Jill Geary – District 3 – jill.geary@seattleschools.org
Sue Peters – District 4 - sue.peters@seattleschools.org
Stephan Blanford (Thurgood Marshall’s school board director – District 5 -stephan.blanford@seattleschools.org
Leslie Harris – District 6 -leslie.harris@seattleschools.org
Betty Patu – District 7 - betty.patu@seattleschools.org
Sincerely,
Katie May, PrincipalThurgood Marshall Elementary
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
This letter piques a number of questions, and I hope the Board asks them. More than that, I hope Ms May answers them.
This letter piques a number of questions, and I hope the Board asks them. More than that, I hope Ms May answers them.
- "We believe that the ability to integrate our students for social studies would provide benefits to all of our students."
What benefits are you expecting? What negative consequences could result? How will you monitor the effects of this change? What are the benchmarks you need to reach to consider this change a net positive? What benchmarks would cause you to regard this change as a net negative? Or did you have no intention of measuring the consequences of this change or questioning the results of this change? - Why is it necessary to amend the policy by eliminating the part that says: "The Highly Capable Cohort (HCC) is available to all students identified as Highly Capable in grades K-8."?
- Why is it necessary to amend the policy by eliminating the reference to "rigorous curriculum"?
- The biggest changes in this policy are not about the delivery method for Social Studies. Why are these other changes included in the Proposed Language?
- "We believe that Social Studies instruction is as much about the process of learning to learn together as it is about the content that we teach." Is this true of other disciplines (ELA, math, science, etc.) or just Social Studies?
- What exactly is "the process of learning to learn together"? Is learning together a difficult thing that children need to learn to do or are children naturally able to learn together? What other lessons in learning together does Thurgood Marshall deliver?
- Is the intent of this change to substitute lessons in how to interact with diverse populations for lessons in Social Studies?
- Why is Social Studies the discipline best suited for this substitution?
- Will the Social Studies curricula for the HC students continue to be an advanced curricula? If not, why not? Is it an advanced curricula now? If not, why not? If the HC students are currently being taught an advanced curricula in Social Studies, what is that advanced curricula?
- In fact, what are the advanced curricula being taught to HC students in math, ELA, and science? What academic Standards and expectations are in use? How and why were those Standards and expectations chosen and who chose them?
As I have recently written, the school district makes a lot of promises that changes in existing programs will have beneficial effects, but the district never provides any data to show the effects. There is no structure for assessing the consequences - good or ill - of the decisions and no benchmarks for determining whether the change was a net positive or negative.
Self-contained Spectrum was dismantled on the promise that the advanced curricula could be delivered in a general education classroom through differentiated instruction, but no one ever followed up to determine if that were true. In fact, no one even followed up to confirm that any advanced curricula or differentiated instruction was ever delivered at all.
So there is room to question whether any of the promised benefits of dismantling the self-contained HCC classes will have positive or negative consequences and certainly reason to insist that someone monitor the outcomes to determine whether the decision made things better or worse.
Comments
Parent
If the board wants to authorize this, they need to make the following changes:
1. Note that this only applies at TM for the classes specified
2. Require TM staff and principals to provide a plan to ensure all kids' learning needs are met in the blended classes
3. Require TM staff and principles to show how they will measure or otherwise confirm that those learning needs have been met, and further specify that test scores don't count
4. Reject the foot-in-the-door elements of the proposed change so as to prevent this pilot program from being the wedge by which HCC is destroyed across the district.
This move is related to the attacks on Middle College, EEU, and other non-standard programs and curricula. The district is determined to force all kids to get exactly the same education, and to deny kids the ability to have their particular needs met. If this succeeds, children's needs will no longer be met in SPS, and the district will officially be abandoning its commitment to ensure all kids are learning and thriving.
Non-HCC Parent
HF
cp
HF
I wouldn't say Fairmount Park does flexible grouping. Instead, the school's advanced learning classrooms include both Highly Capable and Spectrum students. There is no grouping of these students with students in general education classrooms. This doesn't assume to offend anyone because the classrooms all look alike.
Falcon Parent
"We believe that Social Studies instruction is as much about the process of learning to learn together as it is about the content that we teach."
I'm with Charlie; what does this mean? If a principal is talking about "process of learning" that's pretty profound. I agree with CP that this sounds a lot like a social justice stance which is not a bad thing but it needs to be explained.
I don't see learning to learn together in there. It's a nice goal though. Perhaps the teachers want to volunteer to offer a multicultural club as a free after school activity for Thurgood Marshall students.
parent
Are there no Asian students at TM? I have been horrified at the degree to which Asian students have been whitewashed out of the Garfield discussion. A third of the students at Garfield are Asian. A third of the supposedly all white National Merit scholars are Asian, maybe more. Casting the issue as black and white makes it easier to cast your opponents as 1961 style civil rights detractors, but that is not the world we live in anymore. Far, far more of my students' classmates at Cascadia are first or second generation immigrants than at our neighborhood school, often from Asia.
-sleeper
We trusted the Admin when they said with the splits we would have a curriculum. We trusted the recommendations of the ALTF that there was going to be PD to teach all teachers on the importance and distinctions of HC education services. Evidently neither has happened.
Ms. Taylor and Ms. May should question their own unconscious racism as they are not serving anyone with their hate speech.
No curriculum, no justice.
-NCNJ
I grew up in a family of farm workers. I worked in the fields and barely went to school until my parents got a service job when I was 8. My school was in a mixed race mixed income town in coastal California. All our classes were gen ed classes. We never had honors or advanced learning, not until high school.
I was tracked into gen ed classes in high school. One teacher also taught Honors English and saw I had some ability so she put me in the Honors class. I thrived. It prepared me for college. I was the first in my family to go and to graduate. Now I live comfortably in north Seattle. I made it.
I want my daughter to make it too. But she won't if you all take away her ability to go to a good college, which is what you're doing if you take away these Honors and advanced classes like this. She's one generation removed from the fields but you want to put her and kids like her right back by claiming its for the sake of equity.
The children of white kids can go to private school or supplement with outside classes. But that's just reinforcing the problem you all say you want to solve. Meanwhile you never once mention how these blended classes will help kids who are having trouble. You never once explain how this will help them get ahead.
Instead you want to use our kids as some sort of museum piece. Instead of slumming it in the ghetto you think your kids should slum it in our classes. I got news for you: that's not what we want. We want our kids to LEARN, dangit, not to be used so you all can feel better about yourselves.
So check your privilege. Your job is to help make sure kids get the instruction they need, not deny it to them so you all can feel better about yourselves. If you ever want to know why people like us are so frustrated with white liberals, this is why. Knock it off and give all kids the classes they need - and if those classes aren't as diverse as you want, then help us get our kids there, rather than just doing this by decree. You don't get it, you didn't talk to us, and you're not helping us. Just stop.
Hermano
The TM teachers' goals may be noble, but I don't know that they are developmentally appropriate for elementary students, particularly those with asynchronous development. It's like the actual reality that some of the HCC kids joined the cohort *precisely because* they weren't able to "learn together" with age peers is being tossed aside or ignored!
I've done a lot of reading about and have recent lived experience dealing with the social and emotional needs of gifted kids. I remember one study that suggested that social problems are greatest between the ages of 4 to 9 years, which is consistent with our own family's experience. Kids with wildly divergent or unusual interests simply don't relate to a lot of other children their own age, and they don't get to learn social skills or develop a healthy self-concept unless they can practice with receptive peers. As these kids mature, however, and develop better abstract thinking, they are better able to manage their asynchrony and develop relationships with a wider range of people. But trying to make them relate to each other before they're ready and, for some, able? It doesn't seem like a plan that's been developed with the quirks of asynchronous kids in mind.
In other words, they do not take your child's needs seriously and do not believe they have to do anything to help your child. That's disturbing. If they are willing to deny your kid the services they need, who else will they cut off?
Non-HCC Parent
The parents I speak to at TM feel lucky to be in a school that is diverse, with a principal and teachers who value growth mindset and work to provide each and every student with what they need. Planning has been happening and PLCs will be based on social studies next year. There is no doubt in my mind that we have a building full of staff ready and able and EXCITED to take this on. Ms. May and the TM staff do not have an agenda to change curriculum at any other school. We have a unique situation and this is the answer that works for our school.
I hope if a waiver or approval does come through, those of you who doubt from afar without ever being at our school, will come and visit. There is power, understanding, and empathy in bringing all students together to learn about everything from current events and Wash State history to the settlers at Jamestown. I have no doubt that text levels and writing opportunities can be offered to meet all students' needs (it's what our strong teaching staff does already daily) and students will return to their classrooms for self-contained reading/writing and math. Gaining the perspective of so many others from all over the city through social studies is a gift and in my mind, a necessity.
-sleeper
I hope Roosevelt and Ballard are ready for the flood of kids in 2017. Who in their right mind would send their HCC child to GHS knowing the teachers look at them with a hateful lens?
SPS dismay
I am a current HCC parent at TM and not only is there hostility from the administration towards HCC, but it is not a safe environment to voice any dissent to the proposed rule changes.
The "integration" discussions were part of equity committee work, so if you have concerns over the learning environment for HCC, you are cast as a person who just doesn't get it and needs to unpack your privilege.
And the discussions had nothing to do with the polished request that Ms. May wrote later. It was a lot of HCC bashing by parents of children in gen ed who have no idea how important it is for all students to be appropriately challenged. For example "The school talks about HCC as an aspirational program and I'm supposed to feel guilty that my kid's not in it!" Or, from the Vice Principal" HCC parents have to know coming in that they are not part of a program, they are part of a larger community- and if they don't like it they can go to Lincoln!" This comment was met with applause, although HCC parents are some of the most engaged, including the outgoing PTA President.
I hope that the district will not approve any changes driven by a unreasoned "stick it to the privileged" mentality.
Non-HCC Parent
In 2016, there is now a full-on mountain of academic literature which finds that all children are harmed by segregation and that all children benefit from integrated learning environments. That research fully supports this planned curricular change. It has been studied and measured. But it would still be the right thing to do, even if we lacked the “data” to back up the benefits of something so basic as community.
The proposed change is meant to benefit everybody and it will, if we allow it to go into effect, by reducing some of the appearance that TM is segregated school. And for anyone who does not think TM is segregated, please just take a quick look at the yearbook. We might as well be looking back in time.
That segregation, more than anything else, is harming all of our children, their hearts and their minds, in a way unlikely to ever be undone. I support Principal May.
-Parent of HCC Student.
1) It was the late, great John Stanford who, after seeing the problems when HCC was sharing space with a gen ed population, ended that and said HCC should never be co-housed again. (I understand that it's not exactly a co-housing at TM but the point still remains - it never seems to work and the district never seems to learn this lesson.)
2) You make some broad statements and broadly assume that by having one subject be for the entire school, that solves segregation at your school. I would guess that won't be true and then the next shoe will drop.
3) I surely wish TM parents had been coming in numbers to School Board meetings but I haven't seen this. Do you know if parents have come to the Board about this issue?
4) Lastly, I'm going to assume you probably don't like charter schools because the number of articles about how charter schools are resegregating our nation's districts is growing. I hope parents pay attention to that area as well.
parent
That's incorrect. Mostly HCC parents, as I recall, involved in those equity team meetings. Except for the kindergarten parents of course. Everyone wants their child appropriately challenged, not just you.
Melissa wrote: "You make some broad statements and broadly assume that by having one subject be for the entire school, that solves segregation at your school."
So what if it doesn't create total integration? Why can't we have one integrated class? Have you been to TM? Have you seen the problems created by this segregated environment? The kids see it, even if you don't.
You assume we can't have differentiated learning in a blended class, but assume (or don't care) that it can't happen for the other widely ranged abilities of kids in SPS not in HCC or self contained sped. If we are expected to meet the needs of roughly 80 percent of the student body (excluded self contained sped and hcc) in one class, why can't we do at the same time for the 5 percent in HCC?
The posters on this blog are assigning some ulterior motive to Ms. May that doesn't exist, out of some paranoia that we're coming for your kids next, to "destroy HCC" as the previous poster said. Give me a break. I'm proud to have a principal who is willing to take a stand on this.
Scott
Tara - Brown v. Board is irrelevant. We are separating students from others of similar age and dissimilar qualifications in a program in which the color of their skin is not taken into account.
Have you looked at the mountain of academic literature which finds that gifted students are best served in self-contained learning environments? As for your theory that everyone would benefit from this proposed change because TM would look less segregated - that is solving a problem that exists only in your mind. It's short-changing children academically in order to make adults more comfortable. If you must solve this problem for adults, do it by unwinding the district decision that caused it. HCC should have never been placed in that building.
Is the ugly reality that we live with too uncomfortable for white people to see when HCC gets put in a building like TM? So uncomfortable they need to try this hard to disguise it? Does HCC really need to be physically segregated so that the uncomfortable truth of racism can stay hidden?
Why can't we give our kids great educations, and take a hard look at racism at the same time, and not make one suffer at the expense of the other?
- Hermano Tambien
So Hermano Tambien, you'd have to rephrase what you said for me. I can be dense at time. What are you plainly trying to say.
The change is happening at TM because of "misplaced white guilt?"
Who is "disguising" what?
HCC is not truly reflective of the district demographics but you are saying that's because of racisim?
I think that last sentence goes both ways for all kids. How DO we help all kids without pitting programs or needs against one another?
"We want our kids to LEARN, dangit, not to be used so you all can feel better about yourselves.
So check your privilege. Your job is to help make sure kids get the instruction they need, not deny it to them so you all can feel better about yourselves. If you ever want to know why people like us are so frustrated with white liberals, this is why. Knock it off and give all kids the classes they need - and if those classes aren't as diverse as you want, then help us get our kids there, rather than just doing this by decree. You don't get it, you didn't talk to us, and you're not helping us. Just stop. "
This is my fear- that the move to blend gen ed and HCC learning in the name of "integration" will do nothing to truly integrate kids and will just serve to dismantle the strengths of the HCC program. That white parents (and I am one) keep trying to guess at what parents of color want, and we expect their desires to somehow be homogeneous.
I don't know what the process was to get to this request from TM. I respect Ms. May, and assume this is coming from a good place, but that doesn't mean it is the right path for the students.
SPS parent
- Hermano Tambien
This is a repeat of the situation that APP experienced at Madrona before the program was moved into a stand-alone building at Lowell by John Stanford.
Institutional memory has value. It is valuable to know what was tried before and how it failed.
It is understandable for people to see the situation at Thurgood Marshall and conclude that it is the result of racial segregation. That's what the visual evidence suggests. But that's not the case. I'm not saying that it isn't the result of racism in the larger society, and I'm not saying that we couldn't do more to foster and identify highly capable students among historically under-represented groups. I'm just saying that there is no specific effort to keep African-American students out of HCC. The students are separated by program, not by race.
I'll say it again. This situation was caused by former District officials who went contrary to the District's own "lessons learned" and contrary to expert advice they paid for to unwisely place APP (now HCC) at Thurgood Marshall.
Yes, Scott. That's what we assume. We assume it for good reasons:
1) The bulk of classes that are supposed to offer differentiated instruction do not.
2) Differentiated instruction is labor intensive to prepare.
3) Differentiated instruction is hard to deliver.
4) Differentiated instruction is fragile. It depends on a deep commitment by an individual teacher. Any change in the teacher's commitment or change in the teaching personnel and the spell is broken.
Scott asked: "why can't we do at the same time for the 5 percent in HCC?"
1) Because no one else has been able to do it.
2) Because we have yet to see any expression of an interest in doing it.
3) Because no one will be checking to confirm that you'll be doing it.
Scott wrote: "The posters on this blog are assigning some ulterior motive to Ms. May that doesn't exist"
No. the commenters here are ascribing to her the motives that she has claimed: to address the visual appearance of segregation. That's a political motive, not a pedagogical one. They are also noting the absence of any mention on her part of maintaining high academic expectations for HC students.
Scott may think that people are paranoid (Are you a psychotherapist who can make that diagnosis based on the presented symptoms or is this simply name-calling?) for thinking that this is part of an effort to "destroy HCC", but this is exactly what it would look like if someone were trying to destroy HCC. And let's note that Ms May never said anything reassuring about preserving HCC, did she? In fact, her re-write of the Board policy went far beyond creating an opportunity for a blended Social Studies class. What was her purpose in that? Couldn't you also be proud of a principal who took a stand to maintain high academic expectations when blending the class? Why didn't Ms May do that? Scott has promised to differentiate instruction, Ms May did not.
Instead, it has played out as expected and now the principal wants to try something else. The problem is that the something else is a major shift in a district program, not just her school. If you read what she wrote, it reads like the change would be applicable district-wide.
And, as Charlie says, it's unlikely to change a lot. It feels more like social justice programming than social studies programming. And that would be okay but everyone has to be honest about what they are doing, why and why they believe outcomes will change.
Funny thing - the one time the district DID experiment with teaching at a higher level to all kids in elementary school? The Maple Elementary experiment? It worked but the district would not supply the school with needed funding to continue on and they decided they needed the money elsewhere in the school (I think either for a counselor or family support worker.)
Anyone else catch this? "One small step in the right direction"
Could you explain the end-goal then?
The proposed change would very clearly be the end of HCC social studies at ThM. Continued steps in this direction would mean one thing: the end of HCC at ThM, and if taken further, the end of HCC in Seattle.
Where is your line Tara? Because there are a LOT of people in Seattle that want to eliminate HCC. Even parents in the program, without a long or wide or deep view of it and this city may not understand the depth of hatred in some circles for you and your kids, though the teacher's comments on FB give a tiny hint. I don't know about you, but for one of my kids this program has been a life saver.
There are some parents and guardians of advanced learners who prefer that their children be educated in an inclusive classroom. They acknowledge that the academics will be sub-optimal, but they put a higher priority on the diversity. No one is trying to take that choice away from them.
There are some parents and guardians of advanced learners who prefer that their children be educated in a cohort of other advanced learners. They acknowledge that the diversity will be sub-optimal, but they put a higher priority on the academics. Their choice is threatened.
You want an inclusive classroom for your kid? Great! Go for it. Everyone wishes you well and wants to do what they can to make that a success. While there are some who disagree with your choice they would not dream of taking that choice from you. So why are you trying to take the preferred choice away from those who want a cohort? Yes, the cohort model advocates understand that the inclusive classroom offers the benefits of greater diversity, yet they do not value that over the improved academics available in the cohort model. Please remember that all of these families have experienced the inclusive classroom - and chose to leave it. It did not work for their child. It's wonderful that it worked for your child, but that doesn't mean that it will work for all children. Some children, in fact the bulk of highly capable children, do better in the cohort model.
The presence of the cohort model for highly capable students or advanced learners does not take anything away from the general education classroom. Not a thing. The cohort model does not in any way prevent the general education class from being equally rigorous or challenging. The general education class can set its academic expectations as high as it would like - without regard to the presence of a cohort model classroom in the same school or district.
The animosity shown to students ready to succeed with a more rigorous curriculum and to their families, who only want an appropriate academic opportunity for their children, is irrational and vile.
Who is expressing vitriol? Not the advocates of the cohort model. They aren't saying anything about the people who are enraged by their choice. All of the vitriol is on the side of those who not only choose the inclusive classroom for themselves, but also want to make everyone else have only that choice by eliminating the other option. After all, who is calling whom racist, paranoid, elitist, precious, fragile, apartheid, and obnoxious? Despite the charge of vitriol made against those who support the cohort, all that I have seen is on the side of those supporting inclusion.
Please everyone, can we all just read this post and quietly digest it for a few minutes?
- Hermano Tambien
Otherwise, those of us who are not interested in going to a school with segregated classes, as the HCC program has brought to Thurgood Marshall, will sadly have to leave OUR neighborhood school for more integrated school.
In fact, our family really asks, why stop with social studies? Why not integrate everything that possibly can be?
I encourage us all to think for a minute beyond rabidly protecting what we already have and perceive as being threatened…think about us ALL moving forward. Think about what your argument might sound like if you experienced the other side of the coin.
Look up people and get on the right side of history's lesson.
Southie
"Otherwise, those of us who are not interested in going to a school with segregated classes, as the HCC program has brought to Thurgood Marshall, will sadly have to leave OUR neighborhood school for more integrated school."
Ann, HCC didn't choose to come to Thurgood Marshall. HCC wanted to remain as a stand-alone program. Your beef is with the school district, not the HCC students, families, or community. Your animosity is misdirected.
It's pretty clear that you would be okay with HCC if it were just somewhere else.
The BIGGEST issue the district and white parents in the district have is the lip service paid to wanting to hear from parents of color, but then when they actually speak out, essentially saying "we know better what is good for your kids."
The more I read the comments, the more I am pushed to feeling like this "integration" is patronizing kids They aren't there to be a science experiment to make parents feel better. If this change happens, the district better gather data on how this improves outcomes for all the kids involved.
SPS Parent
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/07/the-war-on-stupid-people/485618/#article-comments
It's interesting to see the social weight posters placed on students based on academic designation. It's used to score points depending on which spectrum people favor. There's everything to equating HCC to SPED and the need for IEP, to racists/elitists, to the fragile tag. Then the slings toward the non HCC- the trouble makers, the thieves, the elite jocks, the poor, the non English speakers, the oppressed, the vulnerable, the neglected, the poor readers, etc.
I get the fear of the unknown and latching on to stuff to make a point like repeating the posting of that one FB teacher. it's just one teacher. I bet you'll find the yin to her yang out there teaching too. They are the exceptions.
I read frequently here that HCC offers nothing better than the cohort. Nothing in terms of great teaching and curriculum. Is that really true? From personal experiences and reading this and the HCC blogs, the results are more mixed. I remembered one summer reading about an award winning science teacher being maligned by APP parents on one of the blogs. It took a few APP parents to come to his defense and explain the effort this hard working teacher put in to put on the school science fair on his own time and remind many, he teaches all students.
The vast majority of general ed students are in school to learn. For example, some are dyslexic and the dyslexia affects timed verbal standardized test results, however dyslexia doesn't hinder their intellect or the ability to think critically and participate in class discussion and activities. They might need some accommodation in class such as audio books if books can't be read aloud and instead of vocab lists, will need words in written context or visual cues (why some teachers may ask for vocab words to be expressed in drawing instead of a written definition). Teachers may not explain these teaching methods to parents and thus may appear to be soft on the academics. That isn't true at all because nothing stops a student who aren't dyslexic from doing more. 2E parents understand this need for accommodation. Same for many other students who maybe ELL, with ADD or autism. One of the sadder things I've seen are the students who are extraordinary bright and inquisitive, but undiagnosed and untreated of their learning disabilities and thus are left academically behind because they are tracked into remedial classes, particularly devastating when this can be catchd and treated early in K-3. It sets up low expectations, conflicts, and if you want to talk about boredom and misbehaviors, just start here- a place where some HCC parents can empathize.
It's a disservice to the general ed students to assume these students aren't capable of great academics. If some HCC parents find it hard to find the challenging academics in SPS, there are just many more who are similarly frustrated in general ed. Intelligence is fluid and there are many different types. The best tests to measure IQ need constant tweaking and recalibration, and they aren't what SPS uses to measure who enters HC. One shortfall about HC entry is not merely the testing, but it truly requires parent advocates who have the time to research, to prepare their children from birth, to have the resources to navigate when they suspect their children have learning disability and afford the fixes they'll require. It's a huge advantage. Learning about the Wecshler test or CogAT requires some knowledge of what they are and the time to research the use and misuse of these tests. It wasn't taught in schools or university or at my job. It wasn't even mentioned by my child's teachers. It was through networking with other parents in the know which clued me in about them and what's in these tests.
I think that's why this system while appearing meritocratic isn't really. Hence the emotions.
My 2cents
Please remember that every family with a child in HCC at Thurgood Marshall lives in the south end. These are not people who are running away from diverse neighborhoods. These are not people who pulled their kids from public school for lily white private schools. These are not people who moved out of the city for white bread and mayonnaise suburbs.
These are people who are sending their kids to Thurgood Marshall in the CD. They look forward to enrolling their children at Washington Middle School in the CD and Garfield High School in the CD. At Washington HCC is just three classes a day. There are no classes at Garfield which are reserved for HCC. Don't bring your baseless accusations of White Flight to HCC at Thurgood Marshall. It lacks credibility.
Here's an idea: instead of dismantling HCC for the children who need it because they don't match your demographic ideal, how about you work to fix the demographic by working with historically under-represented communities so their children qualify for HCC? How about you build something up instead of tearing something down?
Not all HCC parents "prepare their children from birth." That is a particularly unfair stereotype, especially in the South end. Many parents do not want their kid to go to a school not in their neighborhood, as they WANT to go to their diverse neighborhood school, but discover their kid's needs cannot be met there. Many people I know make painful decisions around this, and acting like everyone is chomping at the bit to get into HCC devalues these experiences. Another one I hear a lot is that "people just pay a psychologist to get their kid in." I have actually heard (anecdotally, as their is no data on this that I could find) just the opposite- that even with "high IQ" scores from external testing, kids have not made it into the program based on other factors that are considered.
I completely agree that highly educated/networked parents have an advantage in jumping through the hoops SPS has in place for even getting tested for HCC. Let's all work together to change that- encourage working with community groups to not only educate people on the process, but gather information around the reasons why parents may not be interested in having their children participate in HCC. Actually ASK PARENTS of underrepresented groups what would be helpful for them and what kind of programs they envision for their children.
SPS Parent
"It's a disservice to the general ed students to assume these students aren't capable of great academics."
I agree. But if you look, you'll notice that no one in the HCC community is making that assumption. No one in the HCC community is saying that general education students can't do the HCC curriculum. That's coming from the schools and the district, not from the HCC community.
The HCC community is saying something VERY DIFFERENT and I really wish that you would take the time and attention to hear it because it's pretty obvious that you haven't heard it yet.
The HCC community is saying that the presence or absence of HCC students or programs in a school is not preventing that school from presenting rigorous curriculum to the students in any class. It is not the HCC community that is asking anyone to "dumb down" the curriculum for any student. The HCC community is saying that they want rigorous curricula that teaches their children at the frontier of their children's knowledge and skills. That should probably sound pretty familiar because, if I'm not mistaken, that's pretty much what everyone wants for every child.
When the HC students are in an inclusive classroom, however, the curriculum is NOT directed at the frontier of their knowledge and skills. We know this because every single HCC student was once in a general education classroom and it didn't work for them. That's why they had to leave it. That's why they undertook a long bus commute. That's why their families travel distances from home to participate in school activities. That's why they couldn't go to school in their neighborhood with their neighborhood friends. It is not an easy or a fun choice.
I don't know how many times I have to write this to get people to read it and understand it. The HCC community did not choose Thurgood Marshall. The HCC community did not determine the eligibility criteria for HCC. The HCC community did not make Seattle a segregated city. The HCC community did not cause multi-generational urban poverty. The HCC community did not choose its demographics. The HCC community did not "dumb down" the academics in general education classes. The presence or absence of an HC student or HCC classroom in your school or district has no effect on the rigor in your child's general education classroom.
All of you folks directing your animosity towards the HCC community need to take a moment and realize what you're really mad about and who really caused that, because I seriously doubt that the cause of your gripe is the HCC community.
My 2cents' laundry list of insults, "the trouble makers, the thieves, the elite jocks, the poor, the non English speakers, the oppressed, the vulnerable, the neglected, the poor readers, etc" was never uttered by anyone in the HCC community. These "slings" come from My 2cents' active imagination. It is an invented straw man. That person does not exist in reality and, even if there were such a person, they certainly would not be representative of the HCC community. So how about instead of projecting villainy on an entire community that does not deserve your contempt, you choose to be reality-based and notice that your fight is not with the HCC community.
Do you have the data on how many kids get into HCC from outside testing? I would actually love to see this, as this particular meme has been going around for years, but I do not know one kid who qualified for HCC that did so through outside testing (not saying there aren't any, just don't know any).
SPS Parent
"I am astounded by the language used in response to an effort to teach ALL of our kids a particular subject matter, ironically social studies."
I wasn't sure what was meant by this exactly because no matter whether you support inclusion or the cohort model for HCC, everyone wants ALL kids to be taught Social Studies. There is no argument about that.
Then we have the statement about the purpose of social studies taken from Google, as if Google were some sort of sacred reference or in any way relevant. You know what would be relevant? The Washington State Essential Academic Learning Requirements for Social Studies.
Funny thing, there's a lot in there that I'm pretty sure Concerned SPS parent would really like, a quote from RCW 28A.150.210 about the purpose of the entire educational system:
“provide students with the opportunity to become responsible and respectful global citizens, to contribute to their economic well-being and that of their families and communities, to explore and understand different perspectives, and to enjoy productive and satisfying lives.”
So why Google? Because it was quick and easy even it it is irrelevant? The Washington State Law makes a stronger case.
Then Concerned SPS parent stated a pretty profound idea:
"So, how do we effectively teach such content in isolation (clearly homogenous groups as many of you advocate) when theory will contradict practice?"
If the study of Social Studies is about exploring and understanding different perspectives, then shouldn't it be done among other students who represent different perspectives? That's not just an elegant idea, it makes sense. Of course it presumes that the two groups are, as Concerned SPS parent presumed "clearly homogenous". Of course, if that's true for the HC cohort and it is true for the general education students at Thurgood Marshall then how many other schools have EXACTLY the same problem - without an HC cohort in the building?
"Attempting to educate our children in context around others who have a different historical and lived experience and would thereby provide varied perspectives and consequently deeper learning is not an attempt to 'destroy', 'dismantle' or 'stick it to the privileged'."
This is another interesting idea. It presumes that the children are learning a lot from each other's perspective on the subject matter. Again, the Washington State EALRs really drive this home:
"In first grade, students develop their understanding of basic concepts and ideas from civics, economics, geography, and history. The context for social studies learning in first grade is the family and the ways they choose to live and work together. To develop students’ understanding of the basic social studies concepts, students are asked to think about families nearby and those far away."
This sort of thing continues for second grade:
"In second grade, students apply their emerging understanding of civics, economics, geography, and history to their communities and others around the world. Students learn about how their community works as well as the variety of ways that communities organize themselves. To develop conceptual understanding, students examine the geographic and economic aspects of life in their own neighborhoods and compare them to those of people long ago."
continued...
And there's more. The EALRs make a very strong case for having as diverse a Social Studies classroom as possible.
Concerned SPS parent goes on to write: "Of course, OF COURSE, needs of each group should be met via different outlets, however, there are occasions when bringing them together teaches them much more than we can possibly imagine!"
And there's the sour note in this harmony. While Concerned SPS parent is saying of course of course the academic needs of the HCC kids needs to be met, the folks at Thurgood Marshall are NOT saying that. They are offering zero assurances of that. It's not so "of course of course" to people who been lied to about exactly this thing for decades.
Yes, Concerned SPS parent, by all means, think about what your argument might sound like if you experienced the other side of the coin. Think about what you would think if you have been told countless times that your child's needs would be met in a general education classroom and it NEVER happened. Every single promise of differentiated instruction broken. Every. Single. One. for decades. Think about what your argument might sound like if you experienced that side of the coin. Wouldn't you want to see some mention of this? Wouldn't you want some assurances of this? And, in the absence of any such mentions or assurances, wouldn't you be a little bit gunshy?
If you really want us ALL to move forward, then the HCC community is going to need some assurances - assurances that have not yet been offered. And, I notice, you didn't offer any. Instead you waved those concerns away with a dismissive "of course of course" and laughed at people's scars. You chided them for foolish fears of "an attempt to 'destroy', 'dismantle' or 'stick it to the privileged'." when they have seen Spectrum destroyed and dismantled in exactly this fashion and a number of the people promoting this idea are saying "stick it to the privileged”. You see value in hearing the voices and the stories of people with different experiences? Then listen to the HCC community. They have a different experience.
I'm not saying that you're wrong about the value of a diverse student group for a Social Studies class. I'm saying that you're right about that. But you're also right about the need to honor other's experiences and voices - and not dismiss them with a wave as you did. You're the one who is preaching the theory and ignoring the practice.
Ummm... I didn't. Where did that come from? Not from me.
Could you not accuse me of saying things that I never said? You know, as a courtesy?
And just what, exactly, are you accusing me of tearing down? That wasn't clear from your comment.
You make a broad assumption that everyone in HCC is from the same background. Are you saying that only race provides diversity?
"As is repeatedly expressed by the children at 5th grade promotion, they yearn to learn together with their peers and see the value of connecting with others both like AND unlike them regardless of program affiliation."
Does TM not split grade level classes for PE and music? That's what my Spectrum school did and every kid in their grade level knew who every other kid was in that grade level.
Good thoughts, My2cents.
"Actually ASK PARENTS of underrepresented groups what would be helpful for them and what kind of programs they envision for their children."
This is THE key thing that the district and schools should be asking. Over and over. I'll bet the answers would surprise some people. (It also would allow the district to correct any misunderstandings about programs.)
"Please remember that some children in HCC have had the privilege of retesting and all the privileges that come with that such as the social capital of their families to know and navigate the system and the financial capital to afford to pay for coaching/tutoring as well as the retest."
One, I have never met a parent who paid for "coaching" for the HCC test. Never.
Two, and again, any F/RL child whose parents want a retest get one - for free and thru with a private test. Nothing irritates me more than people saying retesting is only for those with money.
If there's any mistake it is believing that the IQ test of a six year old is somehow likely to accurately predict potential and intelligence such that we should reassign resources to suit them indefinitely. It isn't.
HCC can maintain an inequtiable cohort model for as long as the political process allows. The numbers don't favor this indefinitely.
Scott
We have a friend, now in their 20s, who was at Lowell APP from 1st grade. They look back on their experience and say it was pretty weird that they were so special they needed their own school. Actual quote. Has anyone asked the kids at TM what they think?
PW
We are trying to avoid making a public education model a political issue. Why do you think this is political?
Kids will naturally get to know each other on the playground, sports teams, clubs, lunchroom, non-academic classes, etc. That's great. Encourage that. But it's an insult and harmful to force them into the same classroom together in pretend instead of real desegregation. Believe me, even little brown-skinned kids are smart enough to tell the difference.
- Hermano Tambien
This change won’t eliminate the cohort or apply broadly, but allows elementary schools to apply for a waiver for social studies alone. It is written narrowly so TM can make the change (which I feel was thoughtfully developed by leadership with input from parents), while keeping the overall model as is. (The proposed change is: “Highly Capable Cohort (HCC) service model is self-contained in Grades 1-5 in ELA, math, science, and social studies. A formal waiver to allow flexible grouping of Gen Ed., AL and HC students for social studies may be requested by HC Cohort elementary schools.”)
The self-contained model will still apply in most subjects, but allows blended social studies at TM. The teachers at TM are excellent and I trust their ability differentiate well. I realize differentiation doesn’t always happen, but I trust these teachers and school. They are excited about this plan and working hard so it works well for all students.
I think blended social studies at TM will enrich the learning experience of all kids, and will help address (in a small way) some of the downsides of having multiple programs with different demographics. I believe my child (and all kids) will benefit more from the blended experience than without (in part from the added focus due to this discussion!). I realize not all parents feel the same. I personally don’t think this will lessen the value of HCC for kids in HCC, instead I think its enhances the value (and enhances education for Gen Ed children) by improving the overall learning experience by tailoring it to the community they are in. I trust that if it doesn’t work well, the TM staff can make changes or go back to the old model. I don’t believe this is a step towards removing the cohort model generally, but is a specific change for TM.
I agree a more important issue is disproportionality in HCC, which I is think is critical to address (I am on a committee working to improve equity & reduce disproportionality in HCC). But the situation is complex and changes will take time to bear fruit, even with positive steps the Advanced Learning office is taking. In the meantime, blended social studies is a small way to improve the learning environment and culture at TM. (To be clear, blended social studies isn’t intended to address disproportionality in HCC. It is designed to address issues related to housing programs with different demographics at TM.)
(Disproportionality in HCC in SPS is high, much larger than nationwide. In 2015 black students were 16.4% of SPS, but only 2.4% of HCC/Spectrum eligible students (and 1.6% of HCC eligible in 2014-15). Latino students were 12.4% of SPS but only 4.6% of HCC/Spectrum eligible students (3.3% of HCC eligible in 14-15). Nationally the gap is much smaller. 2009 Dept of Ed data showed black students were 16.7% of U.S. students and 9.8% of students in gifted programs. Latino students were 22.3% of total students and 15.4% in gifted programs. These gaps are smaller than in SPS and show we can make progress-but that is another discussion! Interestingly the % of kids in AL in SPS is fairly high. AL office data shows 8.9% of 1-12 graders were eligible for HCC in 2016 and an additional 13.3% of 1-8 graders were eligible for AL/Spectrum. 20% total in many grades!)
I realize there is history to why HCC is at TM. Regardless, HCC is there now. TM is working to make it the best school possible, given this reality. Blending a subject, while small, can help kids build friendships, create a rich learning environment, and be a small step towards a more unified school atmosphere, while ensuring kids learn appropriately due to differentiation by talented staff. This doesn’t address bigger problems, but is a small step TM wants to make given its context. I hope we can make this change for the TM community!
"(To be clear, blended social studies isn’t intended to address disproportionality in HCC. It is designed to address issues related to housing programs with different demographics at TM.)"
I'm not sure there's a difference in there.
There is not necessarily a "regardless" to HCC at TM. APP was taken out of Madrona when that co-joining failed. And the district has shown it believes both Sped and APP are moveable based on many things other than actually serving kids.
Devin, can you tell us if TM splits kids at grade level for PE and Music? That would be one way to start those ties.
--TM Parent
You are right the issue is very complex so you can't look at national averages and say why we have such a large gap verses those numbers. Can you tell me the percent of FRL and ELL students in those programs? Really shouldn't that be the area for outreach? Would we really feel it was a victory if Obama's kids went to GHS HC? And I wonder of those non-counted asian children how many are of lower economic status here in SPS?
IMHO race is overrated when it comes to defining disparity as it really is SES and ELL which are the two things widening SPS' achievement gap.
And MC stop with your inane drabble. You are not fooling anyone Choose a moniker so we can skip your post!
GenEd Mom
--Step Back
Hermano Tambien wrote a post at 5:30 pm which I find pretty upsetting in the characterization of brown skin kids. Does that pass the acceptable laundry list? In that post I see a teaching moment. Why is it ok to say things like that and think brown kids and their brown parents will accept it? It might for the poster, but the reaction around me was one of cringe and a few expletives. Maybe it's a form of left handed compliment, a la Anthony Scalia? To those around me, it felt like a punch in the stomach.
Is it only with people with the same IQ range and academic preparation that students can only discuss and learn social studies with? How did people 10,000 years ago manage to traverse the world, exchange the bad and the goods without speaking the same language or the same level of education and get to where we are today? For me, history is more than treaties, facts and political theories. Sure you may get young ones to read more difficult things because of their advanced vocabulary, but ask the teachers and they'll tell you that doesn't always translate to comprehension, critical thinking or applying ideas and events in historical context and to today's world. That takes classroom discussion. When studying the world (or this country), wouldn't it be more meaningful if you have a diverse student body to take advantage of that diversity and have students who have direct experience and knowledge of that part of the world (country) and its culture, history and customs to be part of the discussion and learning?
my 2cents
-sleeper
There are not enough girls in upper level math classes. Should we only offer one math class level per year to fully integrated them? As a math inclined girl- this would have been nightmarish for me, supposedly the person you are trying to help, who needed to not be thwarted by nice sounding but poorly thought out faux equity policies, since I had enough to deal with. Let me have my challenging classes.
-sleeper
That you had a principal who was not effective is not the fault of the HCC program. It is the fault of the district.
As for the tone of the classroom, I found that the kids seemed more easily controlled but that there still were kids with issues. No amount of smart can change issues for students. What I found more striking was the very low number of kids from divorced families. Given the divorce stats in this country, I thought it interesting.
The studies I have seen say what you said - teachers do better with gifted kids in the classroom (sadly, some of them think those kids should be "teaching" other kids.). They like when kids are engaged because it engages more kids. But what comes out is that teachers do better, other kids in the class do better but guess who doesn't? The gifted kids. So do we put more advanced kids in a regular classroom just to help the teacher and the other kids? You tell me.
2cents, you missed that Hermano Tambien self-identified as non-white. That's why he referred to his kids as brown.
I think you are right that students all have things to contribute to classroom discussion. But the assumption that all white/asian kids are the same is not true.
I'll just say that I don't really have a problem with a waiver...for one school. But, as currently written, it sounds like a policy rewrite and that's for the Board to do, not one school.
Please, let the Board know what you think.