Seattle Schools High School Discussion
Brian's Duncan's post about the Summary notes of last week's High School
and Ed Funding Panel Discussion at Ballard High School are now up on BHS PTSA webpage.
Latest updates on SPS budget cuts for levy cliff, broader ed funding, coming high school schedule/programming credit changes, Lincoln HS, CTE program from panelist from SPS, legislature, PTA, and Principals.
Latest updates on SPS budget cuts for levy cliff, broader ed funding, coming high school schedule/programming credit changes, Lincoln HS, CTE program from panelist from SPS, legislature, PTA, and Principals.
Comments
The board is leaning towards opening Lincoln as a 9/10 because of Running Start. As Running Start is guaranteed starting in 11th grade, it is highly unlikely that 11th or 12th graders would split to Lincoln when they have a guaranteed place in Running Start.
Also because of the way capacity works to fully open Lincoln as a 9-12 or a 9-11, you would need to have "domino splits". In other words, if enough students are split so that Lincoln opens near capacity, then additional students would need to be split to backfill those students, to prevent one of the other comprehensive high schools from becoming too small. Presuming that students are moved from Garfield, Ballard and Roosevelt to fill Lincoln, that would mean that other students would then be split to backfill Garfield, Ballard and Roosevelt.
This is one of the many, many reasons why the planning for Lincoln needs to start. Starting Lincoln as a 9/10 is likely the only logistically viable option as the other options would likely cause Running Start to shut down and/or potentially domino up to 4,000 high school students. Opening Cedar Park with 300 students caused a domino split of 850 elementary students. Opening Lincoln would easily cause a domino ripple of at least 4,000 and potentially 5,000 students.
For the folks who were involved with the last set of high school boundaries in 2009, there was lively conversation about QA going to Garfield and Magnolia going to Ballard. You can't move one set of boundaries without there being a significant ripple. Lincoln is so centrally located that this ripple could potentially reach every comprehensive high school.
In year 1 of the new boundaries, a significant portion of Garfield's original zone was moved to Franklin because of severe crowding at Garfield. As Franklin is now full and getting more full, it is very possible that this zone would be returned to Garfield and push some of the Garfield's northern area more north. This is particularly possible when you consider that Ingraham will also be adding 500 seats in 2019 and the combination of Lincoln plus Ingraham will be adding 2,000 high schools seats and all of them are North of the ship canal.
Until the planning starts, any scenario could be plausible. The longer this remains opens, the greater the instability and uncertainty will be for all the high schools.
While folks are focused on Lincoln opening in 2019, it is important to remember the high school is not about grade levels is about 24 credits and high school graduation. As such, 2019 is also the senior year for the graduating class of 2021.
- future Quaker
-PG
That said, with 2,000 high school seats opening in 2019 and all of those seats located North of the Ship Canal, it will be very challenging to continue to send HCC students from North Seattle to Garfield, as that capacity will be needed for students in the central area.
Then if you follow that logic puzzle, there is no room for an additional cohort of any type at Hale, Roosevelt or Ballard, so that leaves Ingraham and Lincoln.
Both Ingraham and Lincoln are "geographically" challenged schools. Because Ingraham is in the far NW corner of the district, very close to the boundary with Shoreline, it is almost impossible to draw an attendance area to fill the school. As such, it is a perfect location for IB as IB will draw students to the school.
Lincoln is similarly geographically challenged. It is located almost exactly in the middle of Ballard and Roosevelt. The largest boundaries for Lincoln can only extend, to a within a few blocks of those schools, so it will be very challenging to draw any boundaries that would fill the school. As such, there will need to be a program placed at Lincoln to fill the school.
The logic puzzle practically solves itself.
It is highly unlikely that there would be any changes to Rainier Beach's boundaries. The attendance area for Beach is very large and yet the school is not full. Making the boundary smaller would not serve any purpose, so I don't see it happening. Particularly with Cleveland as an option school embedded in the attendance area.
It is very possible that there is a change with the Franklin / Garfield boundary as Franklin is pretty full and that boundary had been moved in 2011 to alleviate Garfield's over-crowding. However, that change will likely depend on how many students are moved from Garfield to the north as part of the 2,000 new seats.
For example, if about 400 students or (100 per grade) are moved from Garfield towards the new seats at Lincoln and Ingraham, then the Garfield would simply be right-sized and there would be very little if any change to Franklin. However, if closed to 800 students (200 per grade) are moved towards the north, then there would be need to backfill Garfield.
2,000 new seats is a lot of new high school capacity and all of that capacity pulls to the North. This will then trigger a game of musical chairs to re-balance all of the high schools.
IMHO, the planning for high school boundaries needs to start ASAP, in order to minimize disruption to students. The longer this takes, the more disruptive it is going to be.
If I had any ability to influence things at all, I would use the future 500 seats at Ingraham as "bridge capacity" rather than "new capacity."
There should be a way to BOTH add portable village AND build the new wing at Ingraham. This would enable Ingraham add 150-250 new students in both 2017 and 2018 in advance of the new wing. This would give Ingraham a much better chance to scale up and expand incrementally over 4 years, instead of pushing in 500 seats all at once. This would better empower Ingraham to hire qualified IB staff over a multi year plan, instead of an adhoc post open enrollment basis.
IIRC, there are TWENTY (20) new homerooms expected to be added to Ballard/Roosevelt/Garfield for 2017. Every one of those new homerooms will increase the number of students who will need to be geo-split. If some of those homerooms are diverted to Ingraham, those students will be able to continue at Ingraham.
The planning of Lincoln is about so much more than boundaries. These discussions are bringing to light the absolute absence of an academic vision within SPS. Eliminating HCC seems like the current mission (this week's rumored change is a limit on AP courses at Garfield)...and then what? Will high school capacity be planned with HCC pathways, or will HCC pathways end? Pathways help balance enrollments. Oh, the conundrum.
-rudderless ship
-future Quaker
I will post my comment on the open thread.
North Side
HF
"10th Grade AP Info. Night — Wednesday, Feb. 15
Attention 10th graders who are interested in taking multiple AP classes next year! Garfield is hosting a 10th Grade AP Info. Night on Wednesday, Feb. 15 @ 6 PM in the Quincy Jones Performing Arts Center. Parents, families and students are invited to learn about the stress and workload of junior year from AP teachers, counselors, and other students."
North Seattle parent
LakeCityMom
Sleeper
Mom
I spoke with the principal of Ingram last week at the open house and he told me that Ingram would continue to be an HCC alternate pathway but follow the traditional IB path the last 2 years. They are strengthening the freshman and sophomore years for HCC, and encouraging them to have a contained 4 year high school experience rather than IBX with a patchwork senior year. Ingram IB info night is tonight for those who are interested. If you go, please ask if they would have the option to reject the 3 x 5 structure, or if IB would have to adapt.
IB curious
Did Principal Floe indicate if this change means that they will no longer offer IBx, and if so will it be applicable beginning with current 8th graders? As a parent of a current IHS 9th grader who wants to do the IBx path I have not heard anything to date - including during last year's tours, open houses and information nights - indicating that it will not be an option for the class of 2020.
I am also concerned about the proposed 3x5 schedule, and how it will effectively kill IB if it's implemented without any accommodation for Diploma Candidates.
I'm not able to go tonight, but if anyone who does attend gets information on either IBx going forward or the 3x5 schedule please do share what you find out.
Ram Mom
Mag mom
That said, my kid is unusually responsible and organized with respect to homework and she really is thriving in IBx. Furthermore, we are all actually looking forward to the unstructured senior year where she can explore some other options. We don't have a problem with it.
So, I hope Ingraham does keep the IBx option open to HCC kids on a choice basis. They may not but it is definitely working for some kids. If Ingraham chooses not to keep the IBx pathway - I can say that regular IB is a fantastic choice as well.
-IBHappy
reader
While some students may be more successful doing IB on the regular timeframe, some students really are ready for the challenge earlier. Eliminating IBX as an option leaves even fewer options for the HCC students who would be more successful with the added acceleration. It's sad to watch the district continually chip away at what little is left for the outliers among outliers.
another view
reader,
1./the selection for ibx was for those really considering a no stem path. really hate hcc don't you (detractor group #1 i would say). that means ibx is really humanities focused and ... well as you might know some of those mature themes that a 9th grader might get most won't. think back. and give the program a break. when was the last time anyone advocating for hcc pissed on your parade.
2./ibx was a grand lie to get several families to buy-in to not go to ghs. they were promised a grand senior year. they were promised competitive application c/v for college including internships. the reality is colleges looked at these kids as skating as they had nothing more to do. yeah they had their ib degree a year early. so?
3./your welcome as we didn't push kids out of neighborhood schools and were willing to take a chance on something new and untried. it failed not because of the kids but because downtown hasn't met a promise they don't like to break.
no caps
no caps
kellie, thanks for noodling the numbers! i just can't see any scenario that would move hcc or gen ed kids to lhs from the garfield region unless lhs was to become the NEW AND ONLY hcc pathway hs. the ship canal adds another 20 min to any one trip. so one hour becomes 80 min and on metro nonetheless!?!?
that said i do believe the writing's on the wall for all hs to be hcc schools. how convenient! the best is for a hcc north and south hs. i just feel that the majority of those kids will have been at cascadia then split, and perhaps re-split and then back again to a new and unproven situation for high stakes high school; that they were dealing with all the other changes to go to ghs. yuck.
sps=lucy, hcc=charlie and hc learning=football. you get the picture.
no caps
I can't follow your comment.
At the moment, it is practically impossible to run realistic and reasonable scenarios due to the complete and total failure on the part of enrollment services to accurately capture the running start enrollment as part of high school enrollment. With that said, there are a few real world constraints about high school capacity that can't be changed.
Lincoln is scheduled to open in 2019 with approximately 1600 seats (I think that estimate is quite high but that is the official number) and Ingraham is expected to add 500 seats also in 2019. This creates a net add of about 2,000 seats North of the ship canal. The net impact of all that new capacity will be to pull high school students district wide in a more northerly direction.
At the moment, because the majority of high school capacity is south of the ship canal the, high school students are pulled in a generally southern direction. Once these 2,000 seats are in service, there will be roughly the same number of high school seats both north and south of the ship canal.
Based on the most recent enrollment projections, Garfield needs to divert at least 800 students (200 per grade) towards this new capacity. Garfield's 2020 enrollment with no changes to boundaries or HCC feeder patterns is 2400.
200 per grade is the absolute bare minimum number of students that need to be redirected out of Garfield to Lincoln, as Lincoln's boundaries will be directly adjacent to Garfield. In other words, Garfield needs to send students to either Lincoln or Roosevelt or both. As such, there are dozens of scenarios in which both gen ed and hcc students are moved from Garfield to Lincoln.
While in theory anything is possible, I can't find even one scenario where this happens. If all of the north end HCC were split to Lincoln, then Garfield would simply return to its historic HCC enrollment via the Washington Middle School Cohort and the newly formed Madison Cohort.
By 2019, West Seattle high schools are going to need capacity relief as well. The HCC feeder pattern to Garfield will be just as critical for West Seattle capacity management as it has been for North Seattle high schools.
As such, I think the most likely scenario is MORE than 200 per grade is shifted out of Garfield in order to create some extra capacity at Garfield in order to alleviate Chief Sealth and Franklin.
This means that even if it was a good idea to place 100% of High School HCC at Lincoln, there simply is not enough room at Lincoln for all of HCC and the minimum capacity relief for Ballard and Roosevelt.
The only scenario in which this is even remotely possible would be to redirect even more of Ballard to Ingraham and that possibility is beyond remote. The current Ballard / Ingraham boundary is already pretty contentious at 85th and moving it further south is not realistic.
no caps - we got the idea that IB was a non-STEM path - perhaps from ill-informed blog comments ;-). Thus we almost ignored the IB option. We were only drawn into it based on the obvious enthusiasm of the teachers. Turns out, that thinking IB is a non-STEM path could not be further from the truth. My kid's IB science and math books resemble my college texts in these areas. I think it is just a well-rounded education. Also I don't know what you mean about mature themes. Huck Finn? Shakespeare? Cause that is what they are reading is reading. They watched a documentary about the "N-word". My kid says the hallways at school are more intense than what they encounter in class. Generally though, I agree with a lot of "no caps" comments on the SPS-engineered demise of advanced learning.
IBx is a great path for some students but the consolation prize if they eliminate it is.....IB. Which is identical! I am in favor of any adjustments that keep the Ingraham IB program healthy. Of course we all know here that that is a tall order for the SPS as they seem bent on destroying any challenging and successful educational opportunity for the district's children.
-IBHappy
In the north end I suspect that is the direction, but maybe by student choice as much as district policy, because Garfield is not exactly putting out the welcome mat. Families firmly in the boundaries of Ballard, Hale, and Roosevelt may opt to stay with their established neighborhood high schools because they offer enough challenge and extracurriculars to serve a good number of HCC students. With the loss of some bus routes, staying with the neighborhood school is also more practical.
speculatin'
HP
Ingraham displayed an "honor class track" for HCC 9th and 10th grade who want the option of taking IB 11th and 12th instead of 10th and 11th.
1. Does anyone have an HCC child on this track? How is it working and are there many HCC students taking the regular IB pathway?
They stressed it was an option. I heard nothing last night about eliminating the IBX pathway after next year.
2. Does anyone know anything different?
-T
Really? There is no way you know this for all parents and I would have to assume you work for the district if you feel you can speak for all high school staff members.
"Ya, how ironic that there are so many extremely gifted students in HCC who can't hack IBx that they have to do away with it."
Where did you get that?
Hale doesn't really like AP classes in general so I wouldn't hold my breath on opening new ones.
Thanks for sharing your comments about the IHS IB Info Night last night. Does anyone else have insights to share - especially insights gained from talking with current IB families? (I was there but didn't realize there were current families present to answer questions!) I am concerned about the intensity of IB, including the before or after-school Theory of Knowledge class on top of an otherwise full schedule.
Also, I get the feeling kids might be happy to opt for regular IB if their friends would do the same, but if friends (or their parents) continue to choose the IBx pathway, there is a lot of pressure for all to do the same (so friends can stick together). I wonder if/when the tide will turn and the majority of kids/families (including HCC) will choose standard IB.
Finally, on the topic of the 24 credit requirement, the IHS principal said some interesting things, including that they are exploring the possibility of different high schools taking different approaches to the new requirement. For example, maybe Ingraham would adopt a 7 period day instead of 5x3 (if permitted by SPS), while others adopt 5x3. (It wasn't clear that SPS would allow this, but Ingraham is pushing hard to avoid 5x3 either on a district-wide basis or, at a minimum, for Ingraham. There seemed to be a recognition that 5x3 would destroy the IB program.)
--MS Parent
Confused
" I wonder if/when the tide will turn and the majority of kids/families (including HCC) will choose standard IB" .
I wonder as well and would love to talk to parents of HCC qualified kids who are doing regular IB to get their take as well. I would like to know the current breakdown of HCC kids in IBX versus IB. I am wondering what the honors classes are like in 9th and 10th grade for those who take that path. Are they challenging? I wish there were more AP courses instead. Middle school is when girls "dumb down" to fit in socially. Having a peer group in middle school of girls who are really into school has been a huge benefit of HCC.
-T
I think they said at the meeting last night that ~80% of HCC students now do IBX, but they are more willing to discourage students from doing IBX if they're not doing pretty well in 9th grade work. I suspect that the percentage will continue to fall, since the advisors are now saying that IBX isn't right for many students. When my older child went through, they didn't put that message out at all that I remember.
My memory of the 9th/10th honors classes is that they were a good bridge in difficulty/workload from gen ed middle school work to IBX. I think 9th grade was more of a shock than first or second year IB. There is also a strong peer group of girls (and boys) into excelling in high school at Ingraham.
As far as "being together" in IB vs. IBX, I don't think that's much of an issue. Students are in some of the same classes regardless of whether they are first or second year IB. Also, the school only has one lunch period, so there is time to get together with friends then.
Can you please explain further? Did you mean to state "good bridge from HCC middle"? or did your child do general ed classes in middle and then take honors in 9th and IBX in 10th?
P.S. Unfortunately my daughter's tour was not so great. The student leading did not share much info. The student made a point to let the kids know "here is where you can get free condoms". But not any info about classes, IB or IBX, just showed them this is the cafeteria, this is the gym etc.
In contrast the student leading the parent tour was proactive in sharing and great at answering parent questions, wish daughter had that experience.
Thanks,
-T
As to the being together with friends issue, while it's true that first year and second year IB students may have some classes together, that's not going to be the case for students in IB vs. not in IB yet, is it? For example, if some HCC students still elect to do IBX, they'll start taking IB classes in 10th. Any second year IB students in those classes will be in older grades, not part of their own HCC cohort. Is that accurate?
Thank you,
IBnervous
One continuing mystery is how enrollment works for HCC kids who don't live in the Ingraham zone. Last year, there was mention of a "cap" on such students, but since this information wasn't divulged by the district until after open enrollment, it is my understanding that they let in everyone from the waitlist. I've asked everyone I can find if there is a cap this year, and no one can tell me if there is. Does anyone know? I'm not sure I understand why they would cap HCC kids vs. any other group applying to the school through the Open Enrollment process.
Wondering
-sleeper
I'm happy with his classes this year, although they might not work for everyone: Honors LA, AP Calculus, Honors Physics, AP Computer Science, Spanish, and Art. If there are more 10th grade non-IBx HCC students, they could offer a larger variety of challenging classes for them.
I went with Principal Floe's recommendations of not doing IBx and waiting for 11th grade to start the IB program and I think it was the right decision for my son. The extra stress at a younger age is not worth it and there seems to be more flexibility this way.
Ingraham Mom
You are not alone! In theory the boundary for Lincoln will be set in October 2017. Until then, it is nothing but guesswork. That said, here is the current high school boundary map and my best guess.
Ballard High School
Queen Anne and Fremont are certain to be split from Ballard to Lincoln. in looking at the map, this is the immediate area that is closer to Lincoln that any other school.
My best guess is that Magnolia would most likely stay at Ballard but you never know and Magnolia folks will need to pay a lot of attention to this. During the original 2010 boundary process, many or most of the options had Magnolia at Ballard and Queen Anne at Garfield.
Ballard may also add some new area from Roosevelt, depending on how much moves to Lincoln. The Roosevelt area West of I5 will most likely return to Ballard as well as some of the North West Greenlake area,
Roosevelt High School
Everything West of I5 is potentially up for being moved to either Lincoln or Ballard. SPS has been using the "historic" Lincoln boundaries as a reference point and those boundaries include Wallingford and much of Greenlake.
Garfield
In addition to North end HCC, it is very likely that the remainder of Queen Anne, Belltown and Eastlake are split to Lincoln. Belltown and Eastlake are closer to Lincoln than Garfield.
http://www.seattleschools.org/UserFiles/Servers/Server_543/File/District/Departments/Enrollment%20Planning/Maps/boundarymaps/2016-17/District/AA_ALL_20160919/SPSDistrictMap2016_20160915_AAHS_color.pdf
Something we hadn't thought to ask about until we did tours was how schools scheduled lunch. Ingraham has one lunch period, with clubs meeting in various classrooms. The benefit is that no matter a student's schedule, they can try to meet up with friends at lunch. Students can sit anywhere in the school, including the hallways (which seemed odd to me at first - eating on the floor?). Hopefully that won't change with any schedule adjustments - it was a big plus when comparing schools. They also have a 20 minute morning break between 2nd and 3rd period, which gives students time to grab a snack and take care of random stuff. Those small things make a big difference.
Not being with the same friends in multiple classes is not entirely a bad thing! High school is a time to branch out. Friendship groups may shift and change and that's okay, too. You know, "Make new friends, but keep the old, one is silver and the other gold."
HS parent
Kellie, "Garfield: in addition to North end HCC, it is very likely that the remainder of Queen Anne, Belltown and Eastlake are split to Lincoln. Belltown and Eastlake are closer to Lincoln than Garfield."
is really mostly what i was saying (i didn't know that belltown and eastlake are currently assigned to ghs). this would divide up the seats well.
my editorial though is that hcc primary kids that have been at lincoln as a dilapidated over enrolled hs without a playfield are now not going to be able to go to ghs (which i am sure is what was expected). not as much of a flimflam as saying they would all have their own self contained building in the future.
no caps
"I can’t say whether there will be an early entry option (IBX) beyond the current 8th grade class. Though I will note that the faculty is in near total agreement with Martin Floe’s advice to do the 4-year program.
HCC students are not going to be in a cohort for the honors courses – though the honors chemistry and physics may look that way. While those science courses will be mostly populated with HCC students, they will not be closed to other students if space if available.
As honors is not AP, nor populated with HCC kids, I wonder how the honors classes at Ingraham such as LA compare to general ed language arts classes as well as to AP.
-L
Wow - you are so brave. Care to expand?
Tired of BS
enjoy your little stolen election. if you think the trump honeymoon was rocky... wait for the remainder of his 100 days. oh and mm as spicer,priceless. i will never stop laughing unless herr trump gets us nuked. then i will also be dead.
no caps
If your student is not sufficiently challenged by the honors classes in 9th grade at Ingraham, I don't think there's many places in the district that will challenge them at that grade level. If they can do work at higher grade levels (eg math/science), they will be placed in higher level classes. One of my child's friends went into HL math a year or two early because she could do the work.
IBnervous
OK. I think I understand your question now. It seems like Garfield is so far from Lincoln that how would gened students from Garfield be moved to Lincoln. Whereas Ballard and Roosevelt are so close that it is pretty obvious some gened students would be moved from both Ballard and Roosevelt.
For any of this to make sense, you need the context of the "old Queen Anne High School" Once upon a time ... every neighborhood in Seattle, had a neighborhood elementary, middle and high school. In the 80s, there was a round of school closures that were not "geographically balanced." Both Queen Anne High School and Lincoln High School, were closed. Because QAHS and Lincoln were geographically contiguous, this means that all of the areas formerly served by both QA and Lincoln no longer had a neighborhood school.
In 2010, when Seattle returned to the neighborhood plan, there was a huge problem where the historic QA and Lincoln areas needed to be divided up between the three nearby schools, Ballard, Roosevelt and Garfield. Shockingly, those three schools are the most over-crowded. Now that Lincoln is re-opening, many (most?) of these former areas will likely be returned to Lincoln.
There are lots of ways that the boundaries can be drawn and the block by block aspect is going to be very contentious. That said, there will be gened students geo-split from Ballard, Roosevelt and Garfield.
I think it's time to work towards school assignment pyramids where a group of elementary schools feed into one middle school and that middle school feeds into one high school. Special programs like IB could be placed in option high schools.
I appreciate hearing first hand experiences of other families, but caution against assuming what happens one year with a given teacher is the norm. IB classes do require strong writing skills, from pulling together reliable sources to making outlines to self revising. Each IB class has an Internal Assessment, or IA, which is a write up of a student chosen investigation. I'd consider it one of the better parts of IB program, as up to that point most classes haven't required extended writing assignments. And that's part of the challenge. Most classes haven't focused on writing skills and students are on their own once they are in IB. The assumption is that they have the skills, even though they have had little to no instruction up to that point when it comes to formal academic writing. Unfortunately, I could not make the same statement as Eric B. The exception is 9th grade history, which does seem to be preparing them well for IB.
experience varies
If your HCC student lives in areas likely to be sent to Lincoln and you have chosen Garfield for your HCC student, be aware of the strong likelihood of a forced switch to Lincoln at 11th grade. This isn't an automatic negative. There would be positives along with negatives in that move. But for families to stick their fingers in their ears and say no way that SPS will do that split is to be willfully naive
CapacityWonk
HIMSmom
GHS2020
Maybe a 3-yr roll up is reasonable. Maybe. It's ONLY reasonable if the district commits to providing the classes and opportunities those kids need. The range and levels of classes to be offered will need to be made available for people to consider during high school tours in 2018, for a fall 2019 opening. That means school admin will need to have already identified, for the most part, which students will be going there, and that they have already reached out to counselors from students' original high schools to fully assess the various needs so they can plan their master schedule and hire teachers appropriately. It's not like they can just do all that on the fly. If they are going to ensure that they can meet the needs of juniors forced to transfer over, there's a lot more background work they'll need to do to set things in place. I'm not an expert on starting high schools (that probably goes without saying), but it seems to me they'll need to start planning the course offerings by spring 2018 at the latest, if they're going to try to meet the very diverse needs of students who will be arriving in fall 2019. They'll likely have to take in former language immersion students, HCC students, advanced musicians, biotech academy students, filmmaking students, theater students, possibly IB students, etc.
oy
The earliest Memorial Stadium could become a high school would be 2025 and it is still only a theoretical high school until it is both put on BEX V and approved by the voters. As such, I don't think it is really part of the Lincoln conversation.
That said, your point about long term transparency and planning is ... well said.
For Lincoln to start strong, it needs to be full 4-grade school with most of the teachers hired from day 1. A roll-up takes too long to build a strong cohesive school, with new teacher cohorts coming on each year for two or three years until it can finally have cohesion, and it limits the variety of classes that 9th and 10th graders need to take. Lincoln will have to start with all the AP classes that other high schools have. It just has to. It has to start with all the pieces in place - all clubs, teams, and range of classes, and ideally the academic focus/theme.
Neither model is going to work for everyone: The 11th and 12th graders suffer with a comprehensive Lincoln start. The 9th, 10th graders and the whole school's strength suffer for several years with roll-up.
-BeenThere
GHS 2020 - My above point answers my belief. Yes, I think odds are better than even that your student would be moved.
Look - SPS is AT LEAST 2 years behind in thinking through the programming for Lincoln. That's aside from boundaries which also should already have been addressed. Why should they already have been addressed? Because families in, and entering, high school should have been able to think through assignments based on projected boundary changes. But SPS decision-makers couldn't get it together early enough to make it happen. So it will be the usual fire drill with emotionally wrenching results for families all over the district.
Further, Core 24 realities also have not been addressed, and this year's 8th graders will be the first ones hit with that state regulation. So an immense storm of enrollment changes and scheduling snafus are going to hit kids heading into high school. I can't say this enough. Others on this blog have said the same: wake up families, and do your best to plan accordingly.
CapacityWonk
Moving General Education students out of Garfield while North-end HCC remained at Garfield would be politically untenable. I think this piece of information seals the fate for North-end HCC being placed at Lincoln.
From a capacity perspective, that is a very likely outcome, simply because it is almost impossible to draw boundaries that would fill the school, due to Lincoln close proximity to both Ballard and Roosevelt. When you add the capacity reality to the political situation, you approach 100% likelihood that HCC will be placed at Lincoln.
Many of us, knew that on a gut level and a follow-the-pattern-level. JAMS and Eagle Staff were both dependent on HCC to start the school. Meany is the only new school to not be an HCC site, and that is because Meany was only closed in 2010 and has a legacy as a neighborhood school, partnered with Washington as the HCC school.
Capacity Wonk's observation makes it clear that there are really NO scenarios in which some part of HCC is not placed at Lincoln.
SPS has been so focused on Lincoln opening in 2019, that they failed to grasp the significant for the "graduating class of 2020." The graduating class of 2020 started school last Fall. Boundaries for the "future Lincoln" should have been in place so that the families and students who will be impacted by this, could make informed decisions.
Elementary school is a homeroom based experience and you can do a roll up for elementary. Middle school is a comprehensive experience and you need all three grades to make it comprehensive.
High School is neither of these things. High School is a 24 credit experience that you get via Master Schedule. It is far more complex that anything that has ever been done before and the impact on students has not been well considered.
Like you, I've been around the block. Agree 100 percent with your prognostications and reasoning.
I'll be more blunt. There are a couple years' worth of families who are going to feel and probably be screwed by SPS. Armor on, folks. Planning now, folks.
DistrictWatcher
"Tired already"
Every high school has to offer the classes needed to meet state graduation requirements. Lincoln does not have to (and likely won't) offer the classes students could have taken at their former schools.
At the last school board meeting I watched online someone (Flip Herndon I think) commented that opening Lincoln would provide capacity relief for Garfield. Sue Peters asked how that work. Maybe she had thought that only students from Ballard and Roosevelt would be moved. Maybe she wanted him to announce that HCC students would be moved out of Garfield. (That is a program placement decision and I believe the board has to be consulted on those now.)
The other relevant comment from that meeting was that Garfield needs eight more classrooms next year and they have no capital solution for this problem. (No portables will be placed) They're going to be pursuing other solutions over the next couple of months. The potential solutions I can see are: encouraging/requiring Running Start enrollment, last minute changes to the assignment plan or temporarily making the empty classrooms at NOVA available for Garfield classes. In any case, if you're a Garfield parent keep an eye out for last minute surprises.
HP
JAMS mom
It is a very sad and sobering realization, that NONE of the high schools are truly required to offer more than that. It is not just the future Lincoln high school that is in jeopardy of not offering what Ballard, Roosevelt and Garfield is currently offering to those student.
Because of the capacity issues that Lynn noted as well as the looming budget cuts, all of our high schools will be challenged to continue to offer what they are currently providing.
SPS needs to add over 20 homerooms to Ballard, Roosevelt and Garfield next year. 20 Homerooms. Out of context, 20 might not seem like a big deal but let's gets a sense of what that represents - 600 students. That is Nova plus Center School. Same size as Rainier Beach. That is 50% of a Sealth, WSHS, Ingraham or Hale.
It is an extraordinary number of homerooms to add to high school in one year. When you then add the budget cuts scheduled for next year. You will find that students ability to access specialized classes will be greatly reduced.
We are already seeing the evidence of the capacity pressure at high school, where our high schools are removing access to the most advanced (aka the most outlier) items on the master schedule. Ingraham is moving towards eliminating IBx. Garfield has placed caps on the number AP classes a student can take. Hale has incredibly limited advanced offerings and access to those is shrinking.
Seattle Central has about 500 Running Start students and North Seattle has over 400. Those are really large numbers and they are likely to grow.
There is always some attrition after a geo-split, school move or closure. While SPS can re-assign a student, families can make decisions to not accept the new assignment. Families have moved, left the district, homeschooled, gone private, gotten a seat an option school, etc. to avoid the new assignment.
For high school this gets much more complex because 11th and 12th graders have Running Start as a guaranteed option, as long as they are "qualified," there are NO CAPACITY constraints on Seattle Public School Students from enrolling in Running Start.
SPS can try to geo-split Juniors and Seniors but ... the odds that they actually comply and attend Lincoln are exceedingly small. They can get an option seat at Nova or Center School. There may be other charter options by that point. And there is Running Start.
New Roosevelt Parent
-B
Limited access to advanced courses in middle school, and eliminating HCC in elementary school would eventually mean that the required minimums weren't so varied, but it seems like given the sequences kids have already take to date, they need to keep offering access to advanced courses. These aren't really "specialized classes," they are just classes at the right level. Are you suggesting that high schools should, or could, just start offering 4 basic ELA classes, 2 basic lab science classes, 3 levels of math, etc., since that's all that's required? Are we really thinking that our schools will stop serving students who perform above average? This is do depressing.
oy
-PL
-PL
However, this is not how it works in practice. High School is the master schedule. Each teacher assigned to a high school represents 5 slots on a master schedule, not 30 students.
When you build a master schedule, the order that classes are added matters tremendously, because you stop building the schedule when you run out of teachers and slots. You start building the schedule with graduation requirements. After all the graduation requirements are on the schedule, then you can add the "college readiness" courses and the "unique classes."
I'm not saying that all of sudden, there will be nothing but graduation requirements offered. I am saying that there is a lot of competition for each slot on the master schedule. If you have 3 FTE math teachers, that is 15 slots and the first priority for those slots goes to the graduation requirements and the remaining slots can be used for other classes.
lynn,thanks for the facts as always! one correction though. hc is no longer a "program." that went away with app. it is now a service in line with the state's mandated services. that is why tomorrow tolley could say all hs are able to provide services to hc kids.
one jarring fact is that the altf-2 recommended specific pd for counseling for all hs for hc kids so they could deal with their extraneous issues related to hc. hs said no. why? ask the ostrich what they see in the sand. same reason.
this is sad. the percentage of suicide within this group is really jaw dropping. and those tasked in the future with serving them refused free training for this specific sub-group of learners.
in addition, if you come to sps as a hc kid and you were entering into any school other than garfield -- you are in a tough place especially if you have been accelerated. you may be forced to retake classes. you may be stuck in the office as an assistant. it could be pretty non-academic 4 years for them.
kellie, thank you for your factual post as well. i know more than one 10th grader who has had their counselor mention running start. that said they aren't out of the building all day right? i thought i heard that ghs doesn't get them counted for funding even thought they are in the building every day.
no caps
Here is an example of how this works in practice, using math as an example, to answer oy and pl's questions.
The graduation requirement for math is 6 semesters of math. That means 4th year math is officially an elective and there is no guarantee that you will get the elective you want.
The predetermined range looks like this.
* Algebra 1
* Geometry
* Algebra 2
That said, SPS officially permits students to be two years ahead. This extends the range with
* Pre Cal
* Cal AB
Over and above this range would be
* Statistics
* Cal BC
Then of course, you have some students who are behind and need to be brought up to the range.
So building the master schedule would go like this.
1) The math slots are first filled with the appropriate number of Algebra - Calc AB slots.
2) Any remediation classes are added.
3) Whatever is left, can be used for Statistics / Cal BC.
If you are in your senior year and you want a math class, you better hope that you are one of the lucky ones that gets that slot. This is why so many of the "advanced" courses wind up with 45 students or students go to Running Start because the one time that class is offered conflicts with an actual graduation requirement.
And requirements are required before an elective.
Capacity constraints at the community college work the same way they do at high school.
If you enroll in high school, the school has to give you a seat and some classes. They are under no obligation to give you any specific classes, outside of graduation requirements.
In other words, they need to give AN elective. They don't need to give you THE elective that runs in sequence to your prior coursework. AKA 3rd year foreign language, 4th year math, specialty science class, those are all electives and available on a space available basis.
My daughter takes swimming because she loves it. But every semester there are students who don't want to be there at all, but it was the ONLY class available at that time slot as there is no enrollment limit on that class.
The community college also has to give you some course. If you are full time running start, they need to give you graduation requirements. If you are part time, they can give you anything that is space available.
Capacity constraints at the community college limit WHICH class you can take, but they can't turn you away and they have to give you some course.
There is full time running start, where students are 100% at the community college and they have no classes at the high school. Then there is part time running start, where students are at both campuses.
The high school is funded according to student FTE and part time Running Start students will only bring a fraction of the money with them.
Per the p223s, there are about 300 full time running start students and about 600 FTE running start students, who are part time. That 600 could represent up to 1800 actual people who are split their time between both campuses.
- it's old news but worth repeating over and over (so the district never screws up like this again): the biggest mistake was to let Queen Anne High go. We see these capacity problems over and over.
- The district should give high schools the same talking points for what is going to happen for high school assignments for the future and NOT allow high schools to say all sorts of things. That's the least the district can do if they are not going to have any real idea of what will happen (or, more likely, won't say - they always know what they want to do.)
- Running Start. Well, one of the things that both Dems and Reps in the Legislature are ignoring is the funding for charter schools. As I have previously said, I attended the last hearing for the current challenge to the charter school law. It is currently funded out of lottery dollars (which are now flat with no real growth on the horizon.) As you may recall, there are other items funded out of lottery funds like Running Start and tribal schools.
If the law is upheld and they do expand to 40 charters, there is not enough money in lottery funds for that and supporting the other programs. So they can either cut some funding to some things OR find other funding. But they are not common schools (under the constitution) so they really can't access the General Fund.
What to do?
no caps
If your child attends Ballard for 9th grade, there is a chance he will move to Lincoln the next year. We are supposed to know the new boundaries by this October, so if you live in the Lincoln boundary, then he will go to Lincoln for 10th, 11th, and 12th grade. From what I have read in the comments, it seems more likely that Queen Anne students will move to Lincoln. You will probably find out in October if your child is going to Lincoln.
-J
Anon
http://www.seattleschools.org/cms/One.aspx?portalId=627&pageId=11377442
"We thank the task force for the extensive research and family engagement that informs this thorough report,” said Superintendent Nyland.
Extensive research? Family engagement?
Can someone familiar with district staff identify how many principals are on the 24 Credit Task Force and from what schools? J.Hudson from Nathan Hale and? What representatives do they have from high schools where a significant number of students take AP and IB classes?
No 3x5!
IMHO, the entire report should be scrapped. We have a major district wide capacity problem and the Core 24 folks were working in a vacuum. There were no capacity experts on this committee.
When I read the report, my conclusion was that they were simply taking the precise amount of resources and dividing it into 15 slots instead of 12 slots. Why don't we just magically declare all 1.0 courses to be worth 1.25, as that is the net impact, if no additional time is added to the school day or money is added to high school.
The other net impact is that most students will only have more homework and less teacher contact. As the day is now 15 slots, but students would still only be guaranteed 12 slots per year and will actually have 3 empty slots each year. There was this magical thinking that any student could then take extra stuff. But in reality the priority for those 3 slots will be for credit retrieval, not enrichment.
-Flee
- K-5 & K-8 schools Projected to grow by 0.8%
- Middle schools Projected to grow by 2.8%
- High schools Projected to grow by 4.3%
This growth forecast translates into a projected need for twenty-two (22) new homerooms across the district.
"New space is also required to support program placement necessary to vacate the Lincoln campus in preparation for the BEX IV/BTA IV high school reopening work. Three (3) classroom spaces and a changing table-ready restroom are needed at Ingraham High School to accommodate the Bridges 18-21 transition program move from the Lincoln campus, and two (2) classroom spaces are needed to accommodate the Huchoosedah Indian Education program move from the Lincoln campus. The Bridges move is for two years. Bridges will move back to Lincoln when it re-opens as a comprehensive high school in fall 2019."
I don't know how many were aware that the Bridges program is in Lincoln and will remain there. That's fine but it's part of the capacity puzzle for that building. There is such a program at South Lake High but I assume they wanted a north-end program placement as well. I am a bit confused because the last page of the BAR says that Bridges will go to Ingraham.
"At Garfield High School no Capital solutions are available to provide the eight (8) additional classrooms needed to support projected enrollment growth. Non-Capital solutions are needed to support Garfield’s enrollment for the next two school years (2017-18 and 2018-19). Garfield will receive relief from the re-opening of Lincoln High School in fall 2019."
https://www.seattleschools.org/UserFiles/Servers/Server_543/File/District/Departments/School%20Board/16-17agendas/02_01_2017/I05_20170201_Action_Report_Capacity_Management_2017-18_packet.pdf
What are non-capital solutions for Garfield?
The important thing to know about the capacity management plan is that they based it on rolling back the decreased elementary school class sizes. If the legislatures fixes the levy cliff we'll need many more classrooms.
The elementary calculations are made on rolling back elementary class size reductions. High School are also losing between 1-3 FTE in the budget cuts. If the money is found to restore high school funding, will there be enough class room space?
In other words, my Hamilton 8th grader has a guaranteed slot at Ingraham due to the language immersion pathway. Our reference HS is Roosevelt. We clearly live in the area that would be rezoned to Lincoln HS. My understanding was my student would be permitted to finish her high school at Ingraham due to it being a "choice" assignment.
Is this incorrect?
Befuddled, frustrated and fed up SPS parent
Language Immersion is a "pathway" in the same manner that HCC is a pathway. A choice seat is a lottery seat, that you can apply for and may or may not receive. A pathway seat is a seat that you are guaranteed and is therefore not a choice seat.
If Lincoln is designated as the Language Immersion Pathway, which was the official recommendation from the Language Immersion task force, then yes, your student would be moved from Ingraham to Lincoln. If Lincoln is NOT designated as the pathway school (highly unlikely) then you would be able to remain at Ingraham as part of the pathway.
As Lincoln was the task force's requested placement, it is very reasonable to expect that the geo-zones for both JSIS and McDonald will be within the future Lincoln boundaries.
Director Burke is hosting a meeting this Friday about Lincoln at 6:30 in the Hamilton Commons. this would be a great question to raise at that meeting.
DMC
Yes, the Language Immersion pathway is NOT the same thing as IB. The LI pathways is simply a continuation of enriched language classes for Japanese and Spanish immersion students. These classes were placed at Ingraham, not because of the fit with IB but because Lincoln was the only school with space. Many of those students had lobbied for Roosevelt, which was their attendance school, but Roosevelt did not have space for an additional program.
Those classes are easily moved and while nothing is ever 100%, it is near certain they will be moved to Lincoln. Both because Lincoln high school was the official LI task force recommendation and the vast majority of LI students live in the walk zone for Lincoln.
While in theory anything can happen, many of the puzzle pieces for Lincoln dropping in and LI is a big piece.
The capacity BAR this week that stated that the 18-21 year old Bridges program will be placed at Lincoln tells us that the design for Lincoln included this program so that is another piece of the puzzle.
Very useful information thanks for sharing.