Running Start and High School Alternatives

Requested by Kellie L:

If you measure on a per year basis, this two year program is the LARGEST SPS high school at the moment and it is not part of the high school boundary conversation or any of the capacity conversations.

I have done a little more research and there are a few more dynamics at play, the community college enrollment includes Running Start as well as a variety of CTE programs and a few program geared towards dropout prevention. This is a huge aspect of the high school conversation.


I wish I had time to flesh out this thread more but I don't except to add a couple of links.

Comments

juicygoofy said…
Thanks for digging into this Melissa.

Please note North Seattle College's FAQs "Because we can’t guarantee your registration in particular classes, you should make alternate plans in case the classes you need are full. Talk to your high school counselor about other ways to meet your graduation requirements if you can’t do so through Running Start."

https://resources.northseattle.edu/running-start/frequently-asked-questions

What will happen when Seattle's current and very large classes of 9th graders and younger hit 11th and 12th grades, and the community college classes fill and/or are unavailable?

RS Novice said…
Here's Kellie's comment from this Tuesday's open thread, which was particularly helpful on the topic:

It is a wee bit challenging to get an accurate picture of what is happening in Running Start based on publicly available information. I have been keeping an eye on it for a few years and as far as I can tell there isn't anyone tracking this data at the district.

Here are a few little snippets

* Running Start information is NOT included in any of the annual enrollment reports. It should be a line item in the high schools reports but the Running Start students simply vanish from all of the official reports included in the Annual Enrollment report to the Board.

* Running Start is reported on the p223 [Enrollment Data by School Report] as an AGGREGATE number of Full Time Equivalent students. In other words, all of the PART time RS students are aggregated into a total number. As such, there is no way to determine the number of full time vs part time from this report.

* There were 773 FTE students in RS for 2015-16 and this increased to 985 FTE for the 2016-17 school year. That was a 27% increase and would expect to see another jump for the 2017-18 school year.

* There are no reports that break out these students by either school or the reported "reason" for going to RS.

* There was a new report last year that showed enrollment week by week for September. (I have no idea if Enrollment will produce this report again but it was a FANTASTIC and very helpful report that showed clearly and crispy which schools gain and lose enrollment during September.)

* For High Schools, Rainier Beach, Nova, Franklin and Cleveland added approximately 200 students in September. The other schools all lost students in September ... over 500 were subtracted from these remaining schools between the September and October reports. The net change for all high school was about 300 students but as you can see, the region variation was striking.

* It is reasonable to assume that many of the students who left for Running Start in September had not planned this shift. Students who planned on Running Start and completed their paperwork the previous Spring would have been accurately counted at the beginning.

As a side note, 985 FTE makes the Running Start program LARGER than several of the high schools.
Anonymous said…
Does the District get a kick back for sending (forcing) students to RS?

Smells Fishy
RS Novice said…
The head of Running Start at OSPI (aka "Program Supervisor Dual Credit") is Kim Reykdal, the wife of the superintendent. That smells even fishier...
Jet City mom said…
This article indicates students are paying for quite a bit if their own expenses if they are enrolled in full time running start.

It is dated 2011, but I hadnt heard of a change.

http://knkx.org/post/running-start-students-could-face-financial-hurdle-next-year
Anonymous said…
Holy cow! Call the Seattle Times! No, the Stranger! Wait...which paper gives a flying fish about our students? Especially those wanting to take on academic challenges? People love to throw them under the bus, or more realistically we should say they are being thrown out of our failing public school system and into the industrial cash machine.

Is Nyland's family on the board?

Smells Fishy
Anonymous said…
Kick back? The benefit to SPS is they don't have to build another high school.

realist
Anonymous said…
A school gets tax $ for each student, and if a student is only supported for half the day and they leave to RS for the remainder of the day, to those tax $$ transfer to the college or stay with SPS? In other words, are they getting paid to teach students who are actually subsidizing their education to get their needs met?

Smells Fishy
Curiouser and Curiouser said…
So, RS is a way to dually enroll both in high school and community/technical college at the same time?

And students can be homeschooled but "enroll" in a school district for the sole purpose of participating in RS?

And colleges can award students high school diplomas? How many high school diplomas are colleges handing out?

And RS students still have to take the SBAC their junior year?

So, if a HS junior gets a 3 or a 4 on the SBAC, then the student can use that SBAC score to enroll directly into college courses without taking a placement test? So, basically students who get a 3 or 4 the SBAC can take part of college without paying tuition? And, added bonus, without taking up space in a high school?

So, it essentially deprives high-scoring students of a senior high school experience and deprives low-scoring students of a free year of college?

And RS students can take their college classes online for both HS and college credit?

And you can do RS while participating in a study abroad program offered by "your" college?
Hmm.
Anonymous said…
Really? You can study abroad with your college and get HS and college credit and it's partially paid for?? I want to be a high school student right now and do THAT program! Italy please!

Sweet Deal
kellie said…
Let's start with a basic definition per OSPI.

Running Start is intended to provide students a program option consisting of attendance at certain institutions of higher education and the simultaneous earning of high school and college/university credit. Running Start was initiated by the Legislature as a component of the 1990 parent and student Learning by Choice Law.

Students in grades 11 and 12 are allowed to take college courses at Washington’s community and technical colleges, and at Central Washington University, Eastern Washington University, Washington State University, and Northwest Indian College.

Running Start Students and their families do not pay tuition, but they do pay college fees and buy their own books, as well as provide their own transportation. Students receive both high school and college credit for these classes and therefore accelerate their progress through the education system. The exercise of that right is subject only to minimal eligibility and procedural requirements, which are spelled out, in state administrative rules. See RCW 28A.600.300 for more information.

kellie said…
There is a tremendous lack of clarity and transparency about how Running Start works "in practice" alongside some very serious high school capacity issue, master schedule limitations and boundary redrawing challenges.

That said, this is a legitimate program that has been in place for almost 30 years and there is nothing fishy about the program itself.

IMHO, the problem is that the official enrollment reports, do not include any Running Start information and therefore nobody is watching this piece of the puzzle. The enrollment reports have been showing the high school enrollment has been relatively flat for 6 years, despite the simple fact that the increases in the Kindergarten cohort started with the K class of 04, aka the graduating class of 2017.

The lack of curiosity about how there has been year over year growth since 2004 but yet, high school enrollment has remained flat is a mystery to me.
kellie said…
This comment has been removed by the author.
kellie said…
This is because capacity issues show in a system long before the actual growth is measurable. The first sign is that the slack in the system begins to disappear. For Seattle, this means the loss of the flexible choice seats at high school.

High School boundaries were originally drawn so as to allow about 10% extra space for choice seats. They way this worked in theory, was as students elected the option high schools, this would open an attendance area seat that was now vacant. That now vacant seat could be used by another attendance area student. The game of musical chairs would progress until one school was full and then a wait list would start.

High School choice seats worked this way for a little while but then Roosevelt and Ballard were over-capacity and choice seats virtually vanished. This combined with staff changes downtown means that choice seats at high school is becoming an urban legend, despite the guarantee of these seats in the Student Assignment plan.

I suspect that one of the "updates" in the pipeline for the SAP this year will attempt to take any the little remaining school choice at high school.

The irony here is that the choice mechanism, is a extraordinary capacity tool that would allow the district and families to re-direct students from crazy crowded schools to less crowded schools, but this is not happening.
kellie said…
It is after these choice seats disappear that we see a big uptick in Running Start enrollment. Once the school is too full for choice seats, that is a clear indication that the school is too full and the master schedule gets less efficient and is less able to provide for the wide diversity of student needs and interests.

High School is very different from K-8. Elementary is a homeroom based experience. Middle school has mostly core classes with some limited electives. But high school is an individual pathway for each student. If most of the students at a school are doing the same or similar things, then the master schedule is very efficient and there are more options. If there are multiple programs and/or lots of variation the schedule becomes less efficient and options are limited.

As all schools must prioritize graduation requirements, this means that the classes outside of the minimum requirements are the first to go. This is why so many families are reporting the inability for their seniors to get the math and science classes required for college.

Simply put, the priority for the master schedule has to be ... graduation requirements, all remediation to get students to their graduation requirements, and then anything over and above. This is why advanced and/or honors courses are often the first thing to vanish when the schedule gets tight.

Unless things have changed, the district loses money on Running Start because they only get state dollars for the time the student is in the seat at the high school. I recall that the district had been unhappy about so many kids going to Running Start but frankly, under current conditions, I suspect it's a wash for them.
kellie said…
So that is all the background, to where we are now.

We have several years of significant increases in Running Start enrollment as the high schools are less able to provide a college ready experience for students.

It is wonderful that we have this option and many students would be taking this opportunity, because is a fantastic way to get college credits and save a lot of college tuition in the process.

But it is the students that are getting trapped in yet another failure to manage capacity, that are being overlooked. Students who do NOT want to go to Running Start and want to be in high school are needing to do Running Start just to get math classes. This issue needs some oversight and at the moment, there simply isn't any.

Anonymous said…
I'm a current high school counselor. Melissa is correct about funding. Schools lose funding for each Running Start course one of their students enrolls in. A student enrolled in a single Running Start class brings roughly 80% of the usual state money to the host school, with the other 20% going to the community college. It scales down from there. Students have to get each class signed off by their high school counseling staff / admin, and there are some additional restrictions about what courses students are allowed to take.
Anonymous said…
If the counseling staff is required to sign off on RS classes, then there must be a way to collect and analyze the data.

Krab
kellie said…
Thank you "high school counselor" for chiming in.

I want to clarify that school counselors are the heroes in this situation. For those not yet familiar with how high school operates, high school counselors are the people who are accountable for ensuring that students navigate their "individual pathway" to graduations.

Because the State of Washington dramatically underfunds high school, more than other grades, there have always been students who were "outliers" and were unable to get a functional pathway. Counselors know this and they are well versed in a variety of alternative options to get students what they need.

It used to be a handful of students every year would run into challenges getting their needs met. It is not economically feasible for high schools to run classes that are not full. As such, if there are only 5-6 students who need an advanced course, the high school will not be able to provide it.

The current challenge is that there are now instances where there are more than enough students to fill a class, but that the constraints on the master schedule make it impossible for the school to provide that class. That is the challenge that is not being addressed by downtown.



Anonymous said…
I agree with Kellie. This is a case where the fact that there is an option (RS) creates a situation where SPS works that option into their Methodologie and it turns into the solution. Kind of like HCC is now the only solution for advanced learners, when there should be a system of interventions and extensions at all schools. When are we going to stop blaming our broken system and poor capacity planning on budget constraints and step back and look at the system SPS has created that forces students out, rather than holding them tight (enough)?

Fix AL
Grouchy Parent said…
They have to get all the RS students to come back to high school to take their SBAC tests, so they definitely have a list of who they are. The people who have no idea about this are parents. I appreciate all the information Kellie has provided and Melissa posting the topic and including the links. And I appreciate what sounds like flexibility for students to explore more rigorous options. But it's kind of a shock to discover that Seattle Public Schools won't even be able to offer my child four years of basics (like math!) in high school. How does RS affect students' chances of getting into colleges and universities outside Washington state? As a parent who's never contemplated this, it all seems very surprising. And thank goodness for Melissa's efforts on the blog, because apparently the school district wasn't planning to mention this to me. The district is not inspiring confidence that they know how to provide my child a basic education and that they can communicate to me how it's going to happen.
kellie said…
Here is the link to the Running Start Enrollment Verification Form. The form includes a chart that shows how the student will have their time split between high school and the community college.

http://www.k12.wa.us/BulletinsMemos/Bulletins2016/B035-16AttachB.pdf

Funds are allocated to both the college and the high school in proportion to their FTE status. The state will fund up to 1.2 FTE, so that a full time running start student may take ONE high school course (typically band or another specialty course).

SPS receives a small stipend (about $500) for each full time running start student, in order to cover the administrative costs of managing the program and providing the high school credits. It is notable that the high schools do not get any additional funding via the WSS and it is expected that the counselors will managed these students are part of their standard budget.

Here is what that looks like.

* Full time RS, with no additional classes - the high school needs to providing counseling services, access to clubs and sports, college and career ready service, and receives ZERO dollars for this student.

* Full time RS, with one class - the high school is funded for this student as a .2 FTE.

* One RS classes, with 4 classes high school - the high school is funded as .8 FTE.








Anonymous said…
My Junior is in RS and in addition is taking A2, health and WA History online. He is very excited and happy. He even has time for a part time job. He is very social and these kids seem to always be connected so I doubt they will miss out on any high school experinaces. He knocked out WA history in less than a week and expects to do the same with the heath class. RS is still 10 days out and these kids are very excited to leave SPS high school behind. I have no idea what RS is like, but these kids are eager to start.

This is a positive thing for students so stop raining on their parade.

RS Parent


Anonymous said…
So that last bullet provides SPS with the most bang for their buck. They get most of the state funding, they don't have to provide classes (no math? WTF!) and they don't have to build new schools on time. Brilliant

Smells Fishy
Anonymous said…
@ RS Parent. We've said no one is raining on kids eager to do Running Start. What many of us protest are kids who DO NOT want to be in Running Start. And families who DO NOT want their kids in Running Start. For some kids there are pros to R.S. For others the negatives far outweigh the positives. A choice is fine. Forced R.S. as a capacity management tool? ABSOLUTELY NOT. It's pathetic. And does Downtown care? Hell no.

North of 85th
kellie said…
@ RS parent,

There is no "raining on their parade" here.

Running Start is a fantastic option. There are lots of advantages here. There are many kids for whom, this is the best option.

The challenge here is that there is no light on how Running Start fits into the overall capacity puzzle, boundary conversation, Core 24, etc. Let alone any conversation about the distinction between students who WANT this option (and enroll in the Spring) and students who enroll at the last minute. Maybe all of the last minute students just took a while to commit, but the numbers are just too large and coincidentally coming from schools over capacity.

The first week of school should not be a game of musical chairs, where some students are pressed into leaving for Running Start to just get basic courses and other students cross their fingers that enough students leave so that they get the space that was vacated.

I have raised this issue multiple times in a variety of formats downtown over the last few years and the response was "the RS numbers are not big enough for it to be a concern."

Well ... 1,000 RS students out of total enrollment is not necessarily a large number. But when you consider that RS is a TWO year program, then on a per year basis RS now has more FTE students enrolled than the largest comprehensive high school. It is just just time that SPS looked at this program more closely.

Anonymous said…
I find there is no need to attend SPS for HS math. Math is an individual experience and it's well suited for online classes. There are thousands of online math lectures and forums with some brilliant teachers answering individual questions, all for free.

As long as there are good resources these kids can achieve more faster than sitting in a crowded SPS classroom.

Parents need to be cautious because there are always those who aren't disciplined that could get into trouble in a self paced online program so keep an eye on them.

My2Cents
Anonymous said…
@RS Parent, it is acknowledged that RS offers a good alternative for many students. A growing issue is students being forced into Running Start as the only means of continuing a college prep pathway, despite being at a school that has traditionally offered enough options.

parent

Anonymous said…
I think my larger point was how many of these kids are in both RS and online. They are choosing RS and online and not being forced in to them. I'm guessing the forced numbers are just a small percentage of the total. Out of the 6 kids I know in RS none were forced.

These kids are knocking out the online classes in a few weeks ans scoring very well on the tests. I think there is a new paradigm in HS education that is more efficient that some feel threatened by.


RS Parent
kellie said…
SPS needs to get better insight into Running Start and other online learning options, to support the opening for Lincoln High School. SPS has stated that their intention for opening Lincoln is to geo-split 9th, 10th and 11th graders. Unlike geo-splitting elementary or middle school students, high school students have other options.

All of the 11th graders will have RS as a viable and extremely competitive option as compared to geo-splitting to Lincoln and "RS Parent" made it clear how attractive that option can be.

"My2Cents" noted that online math programs are viable options with the possibility of it being a better option that High School Math.

Opening a new high school is incredibly complex and expensive. Running Start is just another piece of this puzzle. Without some better insight into exactly how many student are leaving and for what reason, it will be nearly impossible to accurately staff for opening Lincoln.
NESeattleMom said…
RS Parent,
I am not threatened by opportunities. I am concerned about helping meet my 9th grade student's needs and also trying to help provide the high school experience they wish for. If the whole high school pathway changes, and classes that my student was looking forward to are not available, including certain language classes that are enjoyable in a community group, and also if certain music classes are not available at the level that is looked forward to, and also if certain math/science classes are not available in the future pathway, it concerns me as a parent. I hope my child's high school time will be enjoyable in order that he enjoys progressing to be a capable university student and on to a career that he enjoys. I don't look forward to huge barriers in the way. So RS is one possible option I am considering if it is necessary or the best choice. But it is not "high school".
Anonymous said…
@RS Parent. You know 6 kids. Great. There are 1000 in R.S. The program needs daylight and our kids who signed up for high school based on the national standard not to mention local model of 4 years in one place need the guarantee that they can take their college track classes in their flippin school. The bar is low here SPS. Meet it.

North of 85th

And P.S. My kid can and has taken math online and soared ahead in rote learning. Still wasn't the best choice for my kid. The point most definitely is not "knock out the online class and score very well on tests." Sheesh. Struggling through group work, close mentorship, math in the community, peers with same interests - my kid needs these opportunities and they aren't going to be met online.
Anonymous said…
I wonder how many students would choose an online high school experience? The state could choose to pay HS students to attend online HS and possibly save millions each year.

They would need the option to take electives at a local school if needed, but I think this option need to be seriously looked at.

My2Cents
Anonymous said…
@North of 85th

You sound bitter, sorry to hear it.


RS Parent
Anonymous said…
R.S. Parent: At times I do get bitter. Those of us who have spent years wrangling with SPS tend to get that way. We are asking for the basics here, not a pony and a rainbow. A kid sitting in an SPS classroom taking a standard class is a basic expectation. I will not be condescended to by some parent whose kid loves running start when the basics aren't available to a taxpaying, involved, education-prioritizing family. Again, IN SEATTLE - the highest of high flying U.S. cities right now...a city with STEM jobs up the wazoo...and you're snottily suggesting just deal and send kids online or to R.S.?

No. That's no way to schedule Seattle public high school students.

North of 85th
kellie said…
Here is the link to online learning in Washington State.

http://www.digitallearning.k12.wa.us

Anonymous said…
I'm with North of 85th and Kellie. Let's get to the bottom of this and get our students the classes they need, them if they're lucky maybe also a few they want.

Fix AL
kellie said…
A friend just sent a link to RS enrollment. Last year there were 986 FTE in RS, of which 340 were enrolled full time and the remainder is part time students.

http://www.k12.wa.us/safs/rep/enr/1617/17001h.pdf

Anonymous said…
Of course North of 85th and Kellie are correct. Of course the high schools should be providing 4 years of math and core classes for all kids. Of course parents should be told in advance of the possibility their kid will not get core classes in high school.

I suspect this is the district's way of "dealing" with the capacity issue until Lincoln opens, 500 seats added to Ingraham, QA high school opens etc. The senior SPS administrators have all said no new capacity will be added until schools open etc.

When someone questions them about enrollment projections & capacity concerns there is no answer. This is because RS, online classes are what they are thinking, but not saying aloud.
-lousy plan
Anonymous said…
Well I disagree with certain people's negative stereotype of online education, there are 10s of thousands of people taking university classes online and receiving the same diplomas as those students taking in person classes on campus. Online isn't for everyone but those who choose to be self motivated tend to do very well and are great hires for any employer.

More mature HS students can optimize their time and also work a paying job to save money for collage when enrolled in a online HS. The prep rally crowd type probably needs to stay in a traditional HS school.

Things change some people just have a hard time accepting the inevitable. It's like Amazon vs brick and mortar, I think we all know what the future of public education looks like.

My2Cents
Anonymous said…
Holy hell people. My2Cents "more mature HS students can optimize their time...the pep rally crowd type probably needs to stay in a traditional high school." Are you intentionally hard headed with a side dish of snottiness or do you not comprehend? We are asking for 99 percent of America's basic understanding of a high school public education: taking 4 years of classes at the high school. Want to go online or R.S.? Great.

B-A-S-I-C-S vs. O-P-T-I-O-N-A-L.

SPS taking responsibility for BASICS.

And no, this has nothing to do with my student or others not being "mature" enough or "self starting" enough to handle R.S. or online. And I won't even get started with the social justice issues around telling kids to get the connectivity at home or the scheduling freedom and transportation to get their basic education needs met. Again: sheesh.

North of 85th
Anonymous said…
"
'I think we all know what the future of public education looks like' = "Tech Bro" or"Edupreneur".

Such a Republican tactic: Short-fund the system until it collapses, then declare it doesn't work. Privatize it. Make money! #Winning.

Gag.


DistrictWatcher
Anonymous said…
Based on Kellie's RS numbers, SPS did not provide teachers for nearly an entire high school's worth of students last year. Instead, many of the teachers who taught those students were part time contingent faculty. These instructors were paid as little as $3115 per quarter, depending on their experience and course load.

See Appendix B http://www.seattlecolleges.edu/hr/documents/2013-2016_AFT-SCCD_Agreement.pdf

SPS is relying on an outside organization to meet its educational commitment, is not hiring certificated teachers in numbers they should to accommodate their students, and is contributing to the exploitation of part time college faculty.

Do Right
Anonymous said…
It's actually the state's responsibility to provide for the education.The state can and should start bypassing LEDs and provide high quality lower cost solutions for those who can handle and appreciate those opportunities.

There is NEVER going to be > 25 students per class in urban districts it's way too expensive to do. The state needs to push options that protect the state's budget and protects tax payers from run away taxes and meets it constitutional requirements.

Ample provisions can and should included online and CC options. Perhaps each district should have one online HS and staff it with the best teachers they can hire. I think it's is the future and resistance is a waste of energy.

My2Cents
Reprinting for Anonymous counselor (give yourself any moniker next time, please):

"I'm a current high school counselor. Melissa is correct about funding. Schools lose funding for each Running Start course one of their students enrolls in. A student enrolled in a single Running Start class brings roughly 80% of the usual state money to the host school, with the other 20% going to the community college. It scales down from there. Students have to get each class signed off by their high school counseling staff / admin, and there are some additional restrictions about what courses students are allowed to take."

Also, blessings on our counselors and their huge volume of work. We need a dedicated career/college counselor at every single school to relieve the main counselors who tend to have a lot of schedule shifting to do.

Let's please watch the tone here. "The pep rally crowd?" Well, if you didn't know, sports means a lot to many students. As well, many students DO enjoy a traditional HS experience. Let's not put it down.

It is good to have options for HS but I do agree with North of 85th. Kids should be taking RS to either take courses at a better time or if not offered at HS, not because they cannot fulfill HS requirements at school.

Hard to know if this is just the district trying to hold on until LIncoln comes online or just allowing things to get worse in order to engage in a massive shift.

Lastly, I'm baffled by the idea that employers would be more impressed by someone who took online courses. The news coming out about online learning is pretty horrible and I have a raft of stories to back that up.


kellie said…
@ My2Cents,

That is already happening and in many ways the entire point of this thread.

The State of Washington fully funds the cost of Running Start and similar programs. These program SAVE money at the State level as the total expenditure on the Community College is less that would be provided to school districts.

The same is true for online learning. I already provided the link above. The State of Washington has a long list of online course providers that are pre-approved for a fully funded high school option. I would expect that this is another cost savings at the State level.

That said, it is the lack of any clear picture of high school capacity for Seattle that is the problem. How many students are already doing part time online learning. The information has to be somewhere and this information is critical to figuring out high school capacity.

SPS is considering spending about $200 Million to convert Memorial Stadium into an additional high school after Lincoln is opened and Ingraham expanded. This is a huge expense and IMHO an unwarranted expenditure.

Elementary school enrollment has been under projections for three years now and I am willing to bet that it is under projections yet again. SPS has mis-managed capacity in such a way that the mis-management is a solution all by itself.

Anonymous said…
It's effort that some people think that really matters. I see a person who works and takes classes online and succeeds as someone who can figure things out, as a self starter, can overcome adversity and are motivated to get ahead.

The state should be actively promoting all the options to families. SPS should be required to promote all the options to families. I believe SPS currently only offers online options to students who need to make up credits?

There's is a difference between being enrolled in the online school and taking classes online. There are even students that take band at SPS RS and online.

Perhaps offering late risers the online option could help reduce the high absenteeism in SPS.

My2Cents

NESeattleMom said…
My 2 Cents,
My kid is pretty motivated. Neither my kid nor my family is part of any pep rally crowd, (so that was kind of a snide comment for people who like school).

Anyway, my kid does want to go to high school. That shouldn't be a big deal. My kid already is on the computer playing computer games or listening to podcasts for a lot of time. The last think I personally would want would be to have my kid on a computer for online learning, unless a class was not available and was necessary.

On that same note, my kid enjoyed his "flipped" science class in 8th grade. The head teacher videotaped the lectures and the students viewed them in the evenings and took notes. In class they did the homework and the discussions.
SusanH said…
I asked this question the last time this subject came up, but I'd love any further thoughts from those in the know: How do colleges view Running Start in their admissions decisions? I always thought colleges want students to take the most rigorous classes possible in their high school. For example, would they prefer to see a high school AP Statistics class or a Statistics class from a community college? Is one more desirable than the other?

I like the idea of saving money by knocking out a few college credits, but not at the expense of getting into college. And maybe not at the expense of a solid, 4-year high school experience. So much in kids' lives these days is rush, rush, rush.

Thanks!


Anonymous said…
It's rather like choosing the type of college education you want. Nowadays, if you attend a large university where intro classes have tons of students, you might not even have to go to class. Professors put their power points online and often you can just show up to take the test.

However, if you're in a smaller class, maybe an upper level class in your major, they tend to be discussion-based. Attendance is more important, but typically the class in more engaging so it's not as hard to drag yourself out of bed. And you're learning different skills in this setting -debate, effective communication skills, skills that may or may not be important later in your career, depending on what that career may be.

So in the case of high school, you can view it as an early step in this pre-career education. Are these courses ones you just need to plow through? Or are they ones that should start forming the building blocks of effective communication and discussion? Not all high school students even know what they'll need for their careers. This is why I'm not a fan of the blanket online approach, even if it really is the best option for some courses and some people.

-Pragmatic Xennial
Anonymous said…
Current Seattle Public Schools Superintendent Procedure limits total online-learning credits for high school graduation to a maximum of 8. So a student can't use online learning for more than about a third of graduation requirements.

For getting into college, the optimal mix of high school courses (including AP or IB) and college courses will vary depending on the college where the student applies. Large state universities, small liberal arts colleges, and highly selective colleges (like the Ivy League) are all looking for different things, so it is worthwhile to think ahead and read some college web sites to get a feel for what kind of things are most important for the schools the student might consider applying to.

For students who intend to go to a Washington state university, the opportunity to take community college courses with the tuition paid by the state, combined with the state universities' preference for students with a Washington community college AA degree, can be a huge savings in tuition costs. For students who intend to get a two-year degree as preparation for work, Running Start can provide their education at minimal cost. It's a great choice for some students, not for others.

Irene
Anonymous said…
We like the fact that the online classes are bully proof. They are great when your child is struggling in a subject because they get to work through it in a private setting and can take as much time as needed.

I don't think the kids are plowing through the materials in a negative way. I think they get into the subject and don't have to stop just because a bell rings or there is some other disruption in class.

-Cat
Anonymous said…
@do right "Based on Kellie's RS numbers, SPS did not provide teachers for nearly an entire high school's worth of students last year."

Yes, almost a high school's worth of students, but most of these students would be seniors correct? Or do juniors also take running start? That is alot of seniors! Would love to know how many seniors are taking running start from various high schools. It's one thing if it is choice, quite another if they are told they have to leave their high school.

Also, the logistics of time and transportation satisfying some classes at high school and lining up other classes at a community college. Seems tough unless a kid goes to running start full time and does not attend high school at all.
-J
Anonymous said…
Running Start is a great option for some students. Some as in many but not all.

** Some students bored with their HS classes (for various reasons, some legit, some not) find it an option
** Some do RS for economics (free college credit, and towards the end of my HS teaching time I was encouraging it for students who will work hard whose families had limited $$
** Some students do RS so that nobody is taking their attendance (and a couple of them I knew did not graduate on time, although that was the rare exception).
** Some students do RS so that nobody is taking their attendance (due to having to work. Obviously it usually impacted their grades, but it did give them an option
** Some principals fight RS (even directing counselors not to sign up/support students for RS because, as sometimes correctly noted above, schools then lose a significant part of that student's $
** Some principals fight RS (one non-SPS school principal I worked for intentionally came up with an awkwardly unique school schedule that intentionally complicated the ability for students do RS very intentionally... and that principal is now a non-HS SPS principal
** Some counselors support RS as a student option, some do not

This isn't all about conspiracy theories for the district. RS is a great option for many... but definitely something other students should avoid.

former teacher
NESeattleMom said…
If a student is doing RS for part of graduation requirements, they should not plan on credits from spring quarter of senior year because they won't be final by the graduation day.
Anonymous said…
RS may save you money if you go to school in WA state. It can give students the chance to double or triple major based on coming in to college with RS credits. Out of state schools, I believe, look favorably on the classes, but consider them part of your high school classes unless you are full time RS. In other words, no college credit. Just check carefully and be clear on what you/your child are trying to gain or avoid by doing RS.
-NP
Anonymous said…
Well I disagree with certain people's negative stereotype of online education, there are 10s of thousands of people taking university classes online and receiving the same diplomas as those students taking in person classes on campus. Online isn't for everyone but those who choose to be self motivated tend to do very well and are great hires for any employer. More mature HS students can optimize their time and also work a paying job to save money for collage when enrolled in a online HS. The prep rally crowd type probably needs to stay in a traditional HS school. Things change some people just have a hard time accepting the inevitable. It's like Amazon vs brick and mortar, I think we all know what the future of public education looks like.

Egad, My2Cents. Ain't you a piece of work!

You're absolutely right that "online isn't for everyone." But you know what? Public education IS supposed to be for everyone.

"Students who choose to be self-motivated"? "More mature HS students"? "The prep rally crowd type probably needs to stay in a traditional HS school"? Ugh. Self-motivated and mature HS students can also be happy and successful in a regular high school setting, and they (and their parents) may prefer that for a host of valid and reasonable reasons. Also, some students who are plenty mature might have learning disabilities or other issues that make online education not the best fit. It has nothing to do with maturity and self-motivation. And seriously, the prep rally crowd? I'm not even sure what that means, but it's clear it was meant to be insulting. I guess if someone isn't as willing to spend their day in front of a screen learning in isolation they just aren't as good as you or yours, right? You sure have an odd way a breaking things down--there are those who want to and are able to do well in online classes vs. the prep rally crowd who needs to stay in traditional schools. Bizarre.

And what exactly is this "inevitable" future you claim some are having trouble accepting? I think it's pretty clear that online education doesn't work for all, so it's hard to see online becoming the one and only approach., and nobody is denying it has a role for those who choose it and can benefit from it. Pretty ironic that you used Amazon as the example, when they have been opening and buying brick and mortars stores...

all types

P.S. - I didn't know collage expensive. Doesn't it just require some glue or glaze or something?
Anonymous said…
Oops, that firs paragraph above was supposed to be in italics. Please do not attribute My2Cents' warped comments to me!

all types
Anonymous said…
The worst class my kid had at Hale was an online Geometry class. We ended up dropping it because it was too confusing. The lectures, homework and tests did not coordinate. It was almost like 3 separate classes fused into one. We ended up going to Brightmont Academy at Northgate to complete the Geometry class.

HP
Curious Middle School Parent said…
Why didn't Hale have a geometry class?
Admitting Achievers said…
Interestingly, the NYT article When Affirmative Action Isn't Enough uses the same "blow up" phrase as that local article (wonder if they're both getting it from some other source?):

The elite college population will reflect the country’s overall demographics only when schools 'blow up the system' of admissions, said Sheryll Cashin, a professor of law at Georgetown University and an expert on affirmative action. She proposed eliminating the consideration of standardized test scores and ending legacy admissions for the children of alumni.

'The elite schools are participating in and propagating the system of segregation,' Ms. Cashin said. Instead, she added, they ought to be willing to admit high-achieving students from high schools that offer few or no Advanced Placement courses.


And if you replace "elite college" with the program that shall not be mentioned, it sounds eerily familiar to some of the things we hear in blog comments here and on Soup for Teachers here in Seattle. Anyhow, I agree: something is in the air.
Anonymous said…
Hale has over 70 Running Start students and mine is one of them. I have no idea how many students enrolled because of their choice vs necessity.

Hale is getting two portables installed in October, because enrollment was much higher than downtown projected and budgeted, but about what families expected. I think this thread is on to something because downtown projected a substantial drop in the number of seniors at Hale this year and the number of seniors was about the same as the number of juniors last year.

I have also been hearing from friends at Ingraham that Ingraham is also having challenges with higher enrollment than their budget.

I guess this becomes a self-fullfilling prophesy. Downtown projects a drop in enrollment between junior and senior year. The master schedule is built to reflect that drop. The seniors arrive in September without enough classes. Then it is a game of musical chairs as some students leave. Viola! Enrollment matches the projection.

- lake city mom
Anonymous said…
My kid was taking Geometry over the summer so they could take Calculus their senior year.

HP
Curious Middle School Parent said…
If you had to guestimate, what percentage do you guess left more out of necessity than choice?
Anonymous said…
But juniors pick their senior classes at the end of junior year. They should know how many are requesting what classes. It is partly what they do in mentorship. They plan their classes and what they need to get into the college of their choice.

My kid had 45 in their calculus class senior year. Physics was also overloaded but not as much. Some kids couldn't take physics. Not enough space.

HP
Anonymous said…
My kid picked her classes at the end of junior year, met with her advisor and reviewed the plans, and then didn't get what she requested senior year. She needed the classes for college acceptance, but the school no longer offered them or offered them second semester not first (in contrast to previous years) which is messing up her applications and changing which schools she applies to.

-Pissed
Jet City mom said…
My kid didnt have a full schedule senior yr.
She would have liked to have taken AP Spanish, but considering third yr Spanish was taught by a sub for most of the year, she didnt feel prepared.
She also had fulfilled her state graduation requirements for the most part, so giving her more electives wasnt a priority.
I believe she had a couple TA slots.

However, she was accepted to all the colleges that she applied, so I cant say she was harmed by their lack of higher courses.
NESeattleMom said…
These last couple examples sound disheartening. What happened to every student learning every day?
Anonymous said…
"'The elite schools are participating in and propagating the system of segregation,' Ms. Cashin said. Instead, she added, they ought to be willing to admit high-achieving students from high schools that offer few or no Advanced Placement courses."

Yes agree. "High-achieving kids" from schools that offer few or no AP courses. Absolutely agree. Also, kids of all backgrounds and races, including white & Asian. There are all sort of advantages and disadvantages people of all backgrounds have in their backgrounds and family histories. It is time to dig deeper. We have just began to scratch the surface in these discussions, too often in my opinion superficially focused on race alone. For example, I have a disabled friend (with grit) who faced all sorts of challenges and went to a poor high school etc.
-P
Lake City Mom, many people believe downtown is manipulating the process. I wish the Board would catch on.

I'll have to read that article; I thought most colleges/universities looked at the high school the student came from and discountfor its challenges.
Anonymous said…
Responding to SusanH, who asks:

"I asked this question the last time this subject came up, but I'd love any further thoughts from those in the know: How do colleges view Running Start in their admissions decisions? I always thought colleges want students to take the most rigorous classes possible in their high school. For example, would they prefer to see a high school AP Statistics class or a Statistics class from a community college? Is one more desirable than the other? "
--
In my daughter's case -- which I do not claim is representative -- we sat down with the head admissions counselor at UW *before* my daughter decided whether she was going to do Running Start or not. He stated pretty bluntly that Running Start was not for sissies, and that if we had any doubts about it whatever, maybe we shouldn't do it.

The effect on my daughter was quite remarkable. He had really pissed her off. She told me, "That does it, Dad. I'm signing up for a full load. I'll show him!"

She showed him, all right. She aced two years of a full load at North, which earned her a full scholarship at UW, where she also excelled. UW Financial Aid told her they looked with great favor on students who not only seek out the most challenging path, but who thrive on the challenge. I hope this is helpful.

-- Ivan Weiss
Anonymous said…
"Anyhow, I agree: something is in the air."

Ya think maybe it has to do with Trump and the awareness that we are not living in a post-racial society after all?

Could be
SusanH said…
Very helpful, Ivan, thanks!

I didn't understand that Running Start classes could be more rigorous, and looked on even more favorably, than AP classes at high school Thank you for the insight.
Anonymous said…
Running Start classes are actual college classes. AP classes are high school classes that are theoretically at the college level--although there's wide variation in practice.

Froyo
Anonymous said…
Pretty much what Froyo said. When the high schools tell you their AP classes are "college level," chances are they aren't. In my daughter's experience -- which I do not claim is representative -- she took all her classes at North in the morning, then bused over to Hale to do her college homework in the library, then hang with her buddies and do all her extracurriculars, so she would not miss out on the (pardon my sarcasm) sacred, sacrosanct, holy "high school experience."

She reported that her friends at Hale raved about their AP Chemistry, how demanding it was, how it was "college level," and how they were all going to get college credit for it. She was taking Chem at North at the time, and after comparing notes, she told me: "Dad, I just didn't have the heart to tell them, but we were covering twice the material, in twice the detail, in half the time."

High school is high school, and college is college. Those who want college credit should get it in college. I get that Running Start is not for everybody, and I don't claim it is. But we thank our lucky stars for it.

-- Ivan Weiss
NESeattleMom said…
Ivan, Thanks for sharing. If it is not too personal, what kind of scholarship did UW offer? I looked on the website and saw some scholarships through the honors program but I didn't see for transfer students. Maybe she entered as a freshman with RS credits already done? Thanks, as I look ahead a few years...
kellie said…
I don't think "manipulate" is the most accurate word to describe what is going to describe this gap between enrollment and budget.

I think it is just a profound gap of institutional memory between downtown and schools about how the choice system actually works in practice. This is one of those times that I am really glad that I testified last year, the negative impacts to schools with regard to how enrollment was managing their "staffing capacity," instead of honoring building capacity and promised made to communities.

I had testified that TOTAL enrollment was going to be significantly short of projected enrollment if they didn't honor their promises and fill the buildings that had more than ample space. I also testified about how high school was under-projected and this dynamic was going to be very hard to fix once school started.

I am sadly not surprised to hear that there are now "emergency" portables being placed at Hale. This is something that could have easily been managed last Spring, if downtown had just been willing to work with school communities instead of being plagued by the worst budget situation since the levies failed in the 80's.

kellie said…
There is a foundational problem in how downtown is doing school-based-budgets. Last year, downtown made a budget under truly extenuating circumstances. During the natural budget cycle, the district was looking at enormous budget cuts and the pressure of the budget uncertainty led to a lot of less than desirable outcomes.

That said, there is a very basic budget practice that SPS just does not utilize. Downtown uses their projections to give buildings their budgets. The methodology they use for these projections is pretty standard for school districts nationwide. However, because SPS is undergoing so much change this methodology does not accurately reflect what is really happening in the district.

They way to address this typically is to just establish a baseline. The baseline would be ... "if everything stayed the same. what would enrollment be." In other words, if all the grades simply "rolled up" to the next grade and there were neither additions nor subtractions, what is that number. This is the number that families and building level staff intuitively calculate.

You then compare that number to the projections and if there is a big discrepancy, you can then have a conversation. If this had been done at high school ... the budget would have been wildly different.

Now of course, this "roll up" number is not going to be accurate. There is grade to grade attrition, every year after 2nd grade. This year is (once again) the largest Freshman class in a decade. The projections for high school should have been even higher than the modest increase that was projected.

Right now, it seems faintly ridiculous that it took so much public testimony to get downtown to move Center School wait list.

When enrollment information is finally released, I am certain that parents on this blog won't be very surprised. Ironically, downtown's stated reason for their plan last year was that they needed to protect the start of school budget and they didn't want to be in a position of Rif'ing teaching in October.

At this point, many of us have been in the capacity trenches for over a decade. At some point, the boots on the ground really do know what is going on.
Anonymous said…
I understand the budget process this year was particularly heinous, but I don't understand why the RIF-ing of teachers to match enrollment is so normal and accepted. Wouldn't keeping good teachers in a steady job at a school despite smaller than expected numbers be the best option for a school and its students as opposed to penny pinching resulting an environment of uncertainty for students and teachers every fall? Couldn't we find less disruptive ways to pinch pennies?

-NW Mom
Anonymous said…
@ NE Seatle Mom:

Husky Promise. She entered as a junior.

-- Ivan Weiss
Anonymous said…
@NW mom-I think they projected a little high so the cuts would come to teachers, not downtown.

SPS Skeptic
Anonymous said…
We heard last night that the enrollment numbers districtwide are 1,000 lower than the projections. It is supposed to be announced today at 5 pm.

Momof2
Anonymous said…
I'd be curious if projections are off across grade levels, or if certain grade bands are more affected.

How many families are jumping ship? Either leaving SPS for private (or Running Start) or moving to better school districts with a lower cost of living? Every.single.year, SPS families are asked to make some new adjustment - move schools, changes start times, change start times AGAIN, be pushed into Running Start...programs change on a whim or just dissolve...families who can exercise choices are probably getting out while they can.

On top of that, it's getting harder and harder for families to live within city limits. Older single family homes are being torn down to build $1M homes or make way for multi-unit buildings that serve young professionals, not families.

pushed out?
Lynn said…
NW Mom,

The vast majority of a district's costs are salaries, benefits and payroll taxes. Given that the average full cost of one teacher is something like $80K or $90K, it would be very difficult to find enough savings anywhere else in the budget.

What usually happens is that some schools are over staffed and others are under staffed. If we don't move teachers out of schools with lower than anticipated enrollment, we are unable to provide more teachers for schools that need them.

If enrollment really is down by 1,000, I predict that Ballard, Garfield & Roosevelt will lose teachers, student schedules will be changed and many classes will have to essentially restart in a week or two.

One question I have related to this issue is TA periods. Does a school get to report a student as a 1.0 FTE if they're assigned a couple of TA periods because the school didn't offer them appropriate classes? That doesn't seem right. I know my child's counselor was so concerned that she have a full schedule that she was assigned a TA period she never attended.
Anonymous said…
The sibling waitlist issue didn't get resolved until June? Late May? That is the sort of thing that will push families outside the district. I imagine siblings + running start + general feeling that SPS downtown does not desire to make students college ready accounts for most if not all of it, probably in a hodge podge of choices (which is how this happens in other urban districts- mismanagement and misguided choices lead to slow hollowing of the district, so that only the neediest, most vulnerable students are left, and there is not enough money to serve them. That's the potential "threat." Nobody cares if one individual family, or 100 individual families go private. But if enough make choices to shift demographics, we should all care, and we should listen when they start to.).

Will also be curious to know what grade bands are most affected. If it's juniors and seniors it's pretty obviously forced out to running start. RESMS is apparently over projections(is Meany?), so I don't think it's avoiding new schools.

-sleeper
Anonymous said…
@Lynn

But surely we can admit that finding and retaining good teachers is much more likely to improve a school than purchasing new software. Can't we simply invest more money in the teachers at all schools so all schools are adequately staffed at the beginning of the year, rather than label them an "expense"? Eighteen kids in a kindergarten class in an off year, or 10 kids in a Calculus class sounds like a great opportunity to me, not an unnecessary expense.

As a result of the penny pinching, Loyal Heights now has a K/1 split with 15 first graders and 5 kindergarteners. Wouldn't it make more sense to absorb the kindergarteners into the K classroom, resulting in maybe 24/kids per class? No, because then they would lose a 1st grade teacher, because the numbers wouldn't fit downtown's formulations.

-NW Mom

Anonymous said…
"so that only the neediest, most vulnerable students are left, and there is not enough money to serve them."

SPS outperforms the state average, which is completely the opposit of the types of districts you mention.

Seattle (and SPS) continues to become even more white in demographics.

If people choose to leave SPS because of the waitlists and dysfunction, who can blame them? Heck, I was a teacher and left because of their dysfunction.

If they choose to make threats because they don't want to integrate schools and programs, I will continue to object to that.

No Options
Anonymous said…
@ No Options, I don't think many Seattle parents would be against integrating schools and programs if it were done well and students were served appropriately. Unfortunately, when SPS integrates programs in order to integrate schools they often go about it with no transparency, often little planning, and often little attention to making sure the needs of all groups are addressed.

I'm all for integration of programs, schools, whatever, but not at the expense of a quality education for all. Is a diverse experience part of a good education? Yes. But only part. The academics need to be there, too. When program integration means a one-size-fits-all experience and/or the loss of rigor for some students, it becomes problematic. It's not the integration that parents object to--it's the district's unwillingness to address the needs of some students. But you know that already.

dead horse
Anonymous said…
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said…
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said…
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
NP, hi there, I'm the moderator of this blog. I get to decide what follows the topic and what doesn't. I have read several articles like the one you posted and I plan a separate thread but that article is not directly germane to this discussion. Do not repost after I have deleted, please.

Argh, I'm deleting your comment on that story.

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