Friday Open Thread
What's going on this weekend? What happened this week that we missed?
Now is the time and place to tell about it - Friday Open Thread.
Now is the time and place to tell about it - Friday Open Thread.
Tuesday Open Thread
The speaker list is up for the Board meeting tomorrow; not as packed as I thought with just four people on the waitlist. The majority of the speakers are speaking on high school boundaries (with several wanting to talk about Ballard High). There are only three of us speaking about the Green Dot resolution asking the City to not grant the zoning departures that Green Dot has requested. It's me, long-time watchdog, Chris Jackins, and the head of the Washington State Charter Schools Association, Patrick D'Amelio. (I knew Mr. D'Amelio when he headed the Alliance for Education and Big Brothers and Big Sisters; he's a stand-up guy.)
Comments
curious
The city also proposes funding "alternative pathways" for teacher certification, and wants individuals with 4 year degrees to apply. Any chance the city wants taxpayer dollars to fund a pipeline for Teach For America.
As I have said: Transparency Please
Please vote NO on the city's initiative.
When will Tim Burgess and Ed Murray come clean with the voters??
Do all schools use them now?
Or, is it purely a school decision whether or not to test, and if so, to use this test?
Or, are these tests just being piloted to be considered as MAP replacements?
I thought Smarter Balance were the replacements for MAP tests?
And, what are "benchmark" tests? Are those the same thing as Smarter Balance?
And, is the MSP tests partially going away?
What are the State driven tests?
What are the District driven tests?
Why should anyone bother participating? How is it specifically in my or your students' best interests to write these?
Are all of these computer based? Except for the MSP writing test?
And then there's privacy concerns...
#toomanyteststoosoon
Also, as I have said before, TFA also does data collection of students.
http://www.k12.wa.us/assessment/StateTesting/default.aspx
The Smarter Balanced assessments are replacing the math and reading/writing MSP this year. There will still be a science MSP.
Amplify tests are district administered. For schools doing the Amplify (mClass Beacon), I think the tests are during class time 3x per year. They are supposedly aligned to CCSS, so are like practice for the year end Smarter Balanced assessments. Some schools will be doing MAP this year.
So it's either 1) MAP + Smarter Balanced assessments or 2) Amplify + Smarter Balanced assessments.
The district notice suggests mClass Beacon tests may replace MAP district wide for next year.
New assessment system
mClass Beacon (short grade level test) is very different from MAP (longer adaptive test with above grade level content), so I'm curious how they will be qualifying students for AL in the coming years.
parent
BigSchool
APP@Lincoln is 700 kids? Wow.
Funny, huh? Why didn't either of the Board directors who advocated for the contract so strongly in 2010 propose its extension? Why didn't any of the Teaching and Learning staff who supported it then come forward to propose its extension? Why didn't any of the principals who hired TFA corps members propose that the contract be extended? Why didn't TFA send speakers to ask for the extension of the contract? How did this go from such a fantastically brilliant idea to something that should just quietly go away?
Mag
700 kids? Wow.
That's an understatement. Yet you and Charlie have been pushing the more-the-merrier model for years on this blog...as recently as last week--with a personal reflection on the need of your child to fit in.
Be careful what you wish or advocate for, especially when people will look back on these numbers in a few years (or less)
and shake their heads.
--enough already
Susan Enfield is gone and so is TFA.
She jumped on the bandwagon because it was the the career-climber du jour.
Simple as that.
--enough already
wow
A reasonable inference is that Amplify is utilizing their database to collect and archive student data. I wonder what data they are getting from SPS? Is SPS providing fake ID's that can't be tracked back to real students, ever? Even fake ID's can be linked to real students, if SPS later wants to provide the link.
I will not be letting my kids take Amplify's tests.
Joan S.
Has anyone heard of "Ned M.", or rather, NEDM, which is the National Education Data Model? Gates and Dell paid for this to be developed. RTTT program sought to have states create databases that met the specifications of NEDM, so that states' student data could be seamlessly transmitted into the a national database.
In all likelihood the Amplify Data base is a incarnation of NEDM.
J.S.
J.S.
The medically fragile program is small, but they do need rooms and time in the gym. I don't know anything about the Indian Heritage program--I thought it was joining the Licton Springs school?--but I've read of the program needing space.
Never ever said "the more the merrier." I have advocated for all kids identified for Advanced Learning to receive services. Not the same thing.
Also, I said something about my child last week? I was on hiatus and I don't recall that. And I don't recall saying that my child was in Advanced Learning to "fit in." Be part of a cohort, yes.
You can disagree with what Charlie and I may say but don't twist our words.
reader
reader
In its first year, Hale opened to sophomores and juniors only, with just 1,206 students. Two years later, it had a student body of 2,002. By the late 1960s, Hale’s enrollment had reached 2,400, and 24 portables were in use.[3]
Now Hale, is considered full at 1200 but at one time Hale had twice as many students but also 24 portables.
HP
It really isn't accurate to say that Licton Springs is combining with Indian Heritage. The Indian Heritage Middle College was a 9-12 program that SHUT DOWN by SPS after the Spring of 2013, and by that time it had been robbed of most of the culturally relevant curriculum. Licton Springs K-8 is working with the Native Ed department and Native Community groups to try to bring it back on the K-8 level, but we are largely doing it from the ground up.
SPS still needs to restore and revitalize the Indian Heritage High School program.
My child took a Math Amplify test this past week. His Math class was advised what baseline score they should expect to have to "be in the right place." He's also had the Reading Amplify test but shared no expectation nor result of score. He didn't do a grade-level test but a course-level test.
I do not know about Lincoln grade-level tests as my child doesn't attend Lincoln.
you may not get the choice, unfortunately. Our school already tested and we didn't get notice til after the fact. I probably would have opted out too.... had I known.
-SPSmom
MCK
What is going on? First, we see the ST Editorial launch a trial balloon regarding mayoral control of public education. Then, we're hearing that Harium will bring information regarding mayoral control to the school board>
I get the feeling something is in the air and it isn't the smell of sweet roses, or the sounds of birds singing.
At one point the now Wallingford Center was a part of Lincoln High School. That property is sold. Also at one point, the John Marshall was the 9th grade annex for Roosevelt.
North and south districts with school level administrators capable of making intelligence decisions on how to spend their budgets.
No more Neros as superintendent.
Moving forward
cc: Media, PTSA, Parents, Law Faculty, Organizations, Others:
The District will have a sexual assault task force. But the District needs to take itself to task. It has failed to follow its own definitions of sexual harassment/assault and continues to pretend that our daughter was not sexually harassed or sexually assaulted, contrary to the assailant's admission of assault and medical treatment for rape in the hospital. The District's definitions:
Sexual Harassment – Deliberately harassing another person for sexual reasons or in a sexualized manner with unwanted attention, touching, or verbal comments such that the person is uncomfortable, intimidated, or threatened by the behavior.
Sexual Assault – Sexually assaulting or taking indecent liberties with another person (includes “pantsing” behavior by other than elementary-age students).
The assailant admitted to the National Park Service and the District's own investigator that he continued touching our daughter after she told him to stop on three occasions. After each time she told him to stop, he continued with more intrusive actions. The assailant admitted to at least this much with his mother present in the interview. He admitted that although our daughter told him to stop multiple times, he "did not pay attention to her that much." The district also discarded forensic and medical information that our daughter was raped and sodomized for 10 minutes, according to the assailant. You can see the assailant's testimony here with recommendations to brutalize women like animals: http://www.scribd.com/doc/237509410/Response-to-Kaiser-Assault-Report-REDACTED p 232 You may also read our daughter's version of events in this document.
In contradiction to the District's own definition of sexual harassment and assault, you determined in March 2014, that our daughter was not sexually harassed or assaulted. You had the above information and much more and you even granted her a school transfer with rape as the basis. How can the District then determine 16 months later that she wasn't sexually harassed or assaulted? How can your counsel, John Cerqui, write that an assailant may "persuade" his victim? Why is the District assuming an advocacy role for a valued athlete? See the District's self-serving argument here https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0Byn9IiBNNXy9NHlldUtfTzNaQ3M&usp=sharing
Furthermore, you give students the message that sexual assault will not be acknowledged because the District puts its liability ahead of student safety.
Now the District has put on a new face. Therefore, it must be consistent with its policies. It cannot ignore its own definitions to avoid liability for sexual assaults. Therefore, because the assailant met the definition of sexual assault by his own admission ( E-215 of the Code of Prohibited Behaviors as we have stated innumerable times), the District must reverse its decision that our daughter was never sexually harassed or assaulted. Otherwise, the District remains a shining example of hypocrisy. We will share this correspondence with the US Dept. of Education, Office for Civil Rights, who opened an investigation after evaluating our complaint. To this day, your decision constitutes discrimination against the female victim of sexual assault.
SSAIHS
just ugh
-reader
reader
- BigSchool
PCP stands for "planning, conference, and preparation" time, and part of the teachers' contracts is that they get X amount of time per day or per week to plan, conference, and prepare during the school day without their students. So when kids go to art, music, and/or PE, the classroom teacher gets that contracted planning time and that's how PCP allocations are determined: based on how many teachers need how much time per day or week without the students.
Remember a few years ago when the district tried to re-allocate a Lincoln classroom teacher mid-year to save money? The side effect of that decision (or benefit, if you're the district) was that that teacher loss would have also triggered a 0.5 FTE reduction in PCP because the building would have gone from 21 teachers down to 20 (IIRC), and the PCP math worked out such that they could "get away with" also reducing the hours for the art or music teacher (not PE given the supposed state-mandated minimum hours required). Number of kids in the building wasn't changing. It was crazy.
So it's complicated! But I heard that Lincoln has 2 PE teachers this year, so maybe that's how the PCP staffing "adds up" this year? 2 PE, 1 art, 1 music?
I'm not saying any of this is "right" or that a school with 700 kids couldn't use more staffing or that an art or music teacher should be expected to teach that many kids! Not at all. Just explaining how I believe it works on the district's end.
I'm sure someone at school could explain the exact situation more clearly, as well as any possible remedies or alternatives.
Yes, Lincoln was so big in 1972 - 1975 that classes were held also at (now) Wallingford Center plus there were a couple of portables in the (now) Wallingford Center parking lot. There was an alternative school (LOGOS) that was part of Lincoln that had two portables there from Jan. 72 to June 73.
Lincoln alum
Board member Peter Meyer at the time of the TFA approval stated that there would be an analysis of performance and TFA impact.
So after 3 years of "The Grand TFA Experiment" where is the data?
To improve a system requires the intelligent application of relevant data.
Perhaps UofW could provide some TFA impact data?
Let me see here....
TFA accountability scoreboard
SPS Staff = 0
School Board = 0
U of W. College of Ed = 0
And don't forget the State Board of Education that decided to give WA Teaching Certificates to these 5 week wonders..... what data are they looking at now?
And they had to get very very creative with scheduling blocks.
There are 6 fifth grades, at about 30 kids each. But here's a cool thing: They managed to get the 3 fifth grade math teachers all having kids in PCP at the same time, so they can coordinate and do joint planning every day for their period! That is the most awesome thing ever, and I hope readers can take that back to their own schools to help with teacher mentoring and transition to the new math program - b/c a lot of schools are going to a system where 4th and 5th grade are team taught with some teachers doing math and some doing language arts. (Larger classes can be more effectively taught with specialization, like industry). So get all the math teachers to have their kids in the different PCP classes at the same time, and you have automatic coordination time for them. It's beautiful.
--hanging in
WG
-Whittier doubter
RR
What various ways of learning math are you referencing? I believe it's most common to see students learning at different paces. This walk to math method doesn't accommodate that at all. If they've been grouped by test scores/ability but are then taught at the same pace - what is the benefit? Which group's optimal pace is provided to all three?
I was referring to the Sept. 11 thread where you responded to the comment about a "healthy" environoment (which had been part of a discussion about some kids not fitting into neighborhood schools) and you said the the principal said he could do nothing for your kid.
You can't deny that you and Charlie have pushed back tremendously for many years whenever the suggestion that self-contained programs were growning exponentially and inappropriately has been raised. It would be very disingenuous to parse phrasings about this fact. Your words over the years are in the archives in this blog for anyone who wants to see them.
"It depends on what the meaning of
'is' is" won't deny your advocacy for growth of self-contained. Saying "wow" to the consequences of your wishes coming true seemed to beg for some response.
--enough already
The band is very good and lively but someone needs to inform the band director that these actions are offensive to Native Americans.
HP
Gen Ed Mom
And in theory with sorting everyone, you don't have to have three perfectly equal sized classes. You could give a slightly bigger class to one teacher, the class that is more homogeneous, for example, and then give the kids who need more intense help a smaller class so the teacher has more individual time and ability to intervene.
That's how it should work, I think - I think few people in the bigger class would complain, if they felt their kid was actually getting math that was moving fast enough, and that the kids who needed extra help to keep up were going to be able to get it. Most people are pretty fair and reasonable if they have all the information. It's when the school hides the whys and whats and leaves parents to try to figure it out through rumor and guess that parents start to complain.
But if schools just said, the 30 kid class is made up of kids we're confident are going to be able to master the material even in a larger setting, but we put the kids who are at risk of falling farther behind in the new curriculum into a 22 kid class, to try to get them ready for middle school success ...
Still, I like specialization better than walk to. The teacher gets to teach math and science twice, rather than every subject all day. THe strongest math teachers can be put into the math spots - because there are wild differences in ability to teach math.
-- Hanging in
I did not say expanding Advanced Learning was a good idea. (Never)
"..self-contained programs were growning exponentially and inappropriately."
That phrase is your take, not the reality. I suspect you are talking APP but Spectrum not only did not grew, it shrank.
"I know it's come up before that kids needed self contained because some kids "felt bad" when other kids left the room and parents didnt like it."
That was the exact comment years ago when it was called "pull-out."
I think this is okay but kids should be placed at the level they can work at, and not by grade. That means all kids, not just advanced learning kids.
Hanging in, my husband would agree with you. He's not sure everyone can teach math well.
Bemoans the loss of a highly questionable self-contained program and, like on other threads, predicts and encourages the growth of APP for those who can qualify.
There is absolutely no question raised about the numbers at APP. In fact, Melissa states that, if 20% of students in SPS qualify for APP,
then so be it.
Charlie proposes a walk-out because self-contained programs are on the decline (Spectrum in this case). Charlie also states that there is a strong research basis for Spectrum.
--enough already
Before serving as the interim site for Garfield, the old Lincoln building was large enough to also house Ballard HS and later Roosevelt HS during those schools' renovations as well.
Lincoln is a large building (4 floors over most of the building!). I went there for summer school the year before it closed. I marveled at the size of the building and complex in comparison to Roosevelt and Garfield at the time as well as now.
In fact, when Garfield returned to home, it seemed as if Lincoln better suited its needs with so much space rather than the new building where teachers still have to share rooms.
At any rate, I am happy that in the future, Lincoln High School might exist again.
-OldSchool Music
A program isn't "highly questionable" just because you don't like it.
What is the magic number of students in self-contained classrooms that you feel is appropriate? There are a lot of very bright people working at the UW and living nearby. It's not shocking that they'd be more likely to enroll their (very bright) kids in APP when it became available closer to their homes.
If I recall correctly, you're a teacher. Can you share what you think neighborhood schools could do differently to meet the needs of these students?
-another parent
Why do they get a place for themselves, away from the merely"bright", average and below average kids?
Shouldn't the merely "bright" get their own program away from the average and below average? Should not the average get a program away from the below average?
Why is one group allowed to separate? Surely the bright and the average also have unique needs and learning styles different from the other groups.
My kids are above average but not geniuses, but not struggling.
Why don't they get a program that buses them to a school filled with like ability students who can progress
at a faster rate than they can with less capable students?
Moonbeam
I was there as well. That was not the ridiculous redskins tomahawk chop. That was the school fight song and they pump their fist to "fight, fight, fight". I'll grant you that the kickoffs has a building cadence of bom bum bum then the trombone does a kazoo like up and down raspberry. The only reference to "indians" on campus is a beautiful totem by the office. The "seahawk" mascot is a raptor in school colors of light blue red and white.
Do you have nothing else to think about? You know very well that very bright is one of those descriptors used to avoid upsetting the feelings of other parents who love to be outraged.
I'll reword that for you. There are a lot of people who likely have IQs at or above the 98th percentile working at the UW and living nearby. It's not shocking that they'd be more likely to enroll their kids with IQ's at or above the 98th percentile and math and reading scores at or above the 95th percentile In APP when it became available closer to their homes.
Feel better?
Ironically, had you attended a WS High School game before 2000, you would have actually observed that type of think when the school's mascot was Indians.
Most school's kick off is a percussion take on a Zombie Nation song (techno), haven't been to a Sealth game this year, but I think that is what they have played in he past.
Mirmac is right, there is no tomahawk chop, it is a fist pump pump to the school fight song.
Fight On Seahawks, Fight!
Go S-E-A-L-T-H
Fight S-E-A-L-T-H
Win for the Alma Mater
Fight for Sealth High!
Red, Blue and White
Fight, Fight, Fight
Onward to Victory
So Hail to our Alma Mater
Fight on Seahawks, Fight!
-SWWS
One night of the EMERALD CITY REVIVAL brought in something like $2000 and, more importantly, show cased the abilities of a FULL ORCHESTRA (unlike Broadway, these days) and an incredible cast and crew.
My kid threw her heart and soul into this thing, largely because another 70+ kids were willing to make it happen. My kid is not going to post here, but I want to encourage parents whose kids are bright and driven to let them follow their dreams and do something that might seem too unstructured (i.e., not adult driven). I think this is the way our kids build self efficacy (as opposed to ego) and, perhaps more importantly, apply their skills and HAVE FUN!
Hope this addresses your concern about my "highly questionable" comment, Lynn.
--enough already
The education establishment embraces a lot of magic bullet ideas that don't always pan out. And isn't it human nature to embrace ideas that support your own ideologies?
Don't like self-contained? I'm sure there are studies to support integrated classrooms. Believe in self-contained? I'm sure there are studies to support self-contained classrooms.
This guy (Thalheimer) says it best:
Not all research is created equal. Some is better than others. Some is crap. Too much “research” in the learning-and-performance industry is crap so it’s important to first acknowledge the quality of the research review.
Have some links to current research? I'd love to read up on both sides of the debate.
Here's a place to start:
http://www.willatworklearning.com/2014/03/airforce-finds-interesting-results-with-ability-grouping-plus-other-research-on-ability-grouping.html
From Will Thalheimer's blog, Will at Work Learning
I love his Learning Styles Challenge - he's offering $5000 if "any person or group creates a real-world learning intervention that takes learning styles into account--and proves that such an intervention produces better learning results than a non-learning-styles intervention."
happy reading
--enough already
It doesn't matter what we think, it is what the district decides to do that matters.
Of course we as parents have some pathways to explore. For example, my child who qualified for HC is at the neighborhood school and I'm exploring a lawsuit against the district for lack of appropriate service. I want the district to prove to me that services are available and utilized. I don't want to leave this great community, force my child to leave its many friends, ride a bus rather than walk, or lose the ability to interact daily at school with children of all levels of "intellectual capacity"(or whatever it's called).
My principal is not all powerful and has an entire school with many kids with many issues, I'm just one parent with a problem, that is a child who is not challenged sufficiently.So I look to the district to help and a court date seems to be a motivator, from what I've heard.
Not Waiting
Komo
There is no requirement in state law that an individual child be served in any specific way in all schools. Your child is not guaranteed preferential treatment in your neighborhood school.
The primary service that is offered in SPS is the HCC: the specific "services" (i.e classes, curriculum and teachers) that are organized to meet the needs of these kids.
It is the insistence of parents like you that your child is special and should get special services in whatever school you want to go to that is problematic. The reason why there are self-contained programs is because it is impossible, as you say, for every school to be all things to all kids. Impossible.
I don't think you will be successful in a lawsuit against the district on this point because they do offer you services: it is in joining the HCC. If you choose not to utilize the services that are offered to you, that is your choice, but it is not the districts responsibility to force to accept the services. You have a guaranteed seat. You have free bussing. You just don't want to access the services that exist because of your own desire to keep him with his friends, and some misguided perception that it is an awful school.
What exactly to you think that the services at neighborhood schools should be? Individual tutoring and acceleration? When we don't actually even come close to fully funding education now, why do you think that your kids should be able to insist on more resources so that he can stay with his friends instead of joining HCC?
I really don't understand this selfish perspective. You, you, you, and you are going to waste the districts resources in suing them because your kid "deserves" to have special treatment so that he can stay with his friends?
Thatsjustselfish
Can you share what you'd like your child's current school to do differently? What would appropriate services for your child look like?
As I'm sure you're aware, the WAC says For highly capable students, access to accelerated learning and enhanced instruction is access to a basic education. Is your argument that those services must be provided in your neighborhood school? Or that the services offered in the self-contained program available to your child (with free transportation) are not appropriate?
I'm hearing that you like your neighborhood school for social reasons, but that it's not meeting your child's academic needs. While that seems unfair, I doubt that you'll have much luck with a lawsuit. Children who receive special education services are often shut out of their neighborhood schools. You at least have the option of choosing to stay local.
Is that the atmosphere you experienced in your child's APP school? Would you mind sharing which school that is?
You will be wasting your money. SpEd has a federal law that mandates that a student with a disability attend the school s/he would attend but for her/his disability.
Since passage of IDEA, many Courts of Appeal have ruled that...well...not so much. District can offer specific services in a single or central location, if the neighborhood school does not offer that service.
Our beef is when there ARE a services at a local school but the district caps enrollment for these students. The district never caps enrollment at assignment schools for students without disabilities. This is discriminatory.
http://www.willatworklearning.com/2014/03/edgar-dale-myth-found-in-ted-talkis-there-a-silver-lining-to-these-myths.html
The Edgar Dale myth seems behind the support for project-based learning and the dismissal of content-based learning.
And, yep, you can't count on TED talks to be fact checked.
But to state that college readiness and not citizenship, and a belief that the students will be "saviours", permeates the thought processes of the parent/guardians is ridiculous and insulting. Yes, as many p/gs in APP want their kid to be ready for college as do p/gs of gen-ed. As many want their kid to save the world. But, as one with experience with both "kinds" of p/gs, I can assure you that most, across the board, want both success (academic and, yes, social and economic) AND for their kid to be a warm and caring citizen.
As a teacher you may not be privy to parents' conversations among themselves, but your point is valid. People are concerned about the insularity and a stellar college is not everyone's obsession. However the "savior" mindset is one that is more pervasive than you are apparently aware of existing. In fact, the AL department itself has thrown out such ideas. Read some postings on the discussapp blog, I wouldn't paint all parents with the same brush but the the mentality exists and it is not inconsiderable.
Komo
Are you a parent in APP? If so, are you privy to ALL parent conversations? You are strongly implying you know the conversations of everyone . I love this comment: "However the "savior" mindset is one that is more pervasive than you are apparently aware of existing." I like at the end how you say you aren't painting all APP parents with the "same brush." Thanks for that!!!
I have been a parent in the APP program for eight years, and I am not familiar with what you are talking about. Are their jerky parents in APP? Of course. Are there jerky parents in EVERY neighborhood school in the district? Most definitely. You will even find parents with behaviors you ascribe to APP parents in every school.
Kids in APP participate in all sorts of events all over the city. They play on all-city sports teams, participate in scouts, play in all city orchestras. In fact, most APP kids even have neighbors who are kids!!! My child knows all sorts of kids outside of school, as I would imagine is true for kids all over the district. I doubt that there are many kids who only know kids in their school.
As for the us vs them mentality, I experience that on this blog more than I have ever experienced in person. I have yet to have someone tell me in person that I create an insular environment for my child and that I am making my kid into a self-centered pig. I read that sort of stuff on this blog on the time.
-teflon
I'm glad you are forcing the issue. It takes courage.
Komo, I have heard many stories (some recently) about parents who have convinced themselves (and their kids) that their kids are the brightest kids on the planet. I have personally never encountered these parents but I have no doubt they exist.
But a "super-race?" A bit over-the-top.
And here we are with that age-old belief that advanced learners get some "preferential treatment." I wish someone could back that up with a real example. Whether the law says advanced learners at neighborhood schools should be served, that's what the district policy says.
And again, there is NO highly capable curriculum. Tell where you have seen it and what it looks like.
What I don't get is this perception that highly capable kids get more. And we just go in circles.
The day we see everyone who wants to be in orchestra, band, or any athletic team able to be in those groups, then I'll drop my support of highly capable.
But that day will never come because yes, kids have talents in all directions.
Thank you so much for pointing this out, it was exactly what came to mind when I was reading your post(s) above!
enough continued: Separating kids into self-contained who are the Spectrum-eligible CogAt range (even without addressing their current levels of progress) is not considered best practices in the current research on highly capable. Clustering is the recommended approach
This is incorrect. First, read your above statement.
Second, realize that there are almost no quality objective studies on this topic, and in particular ones that have been able to randomize students, due to the nature of most programs and assignments. I think I've only been aware of 2 studies over my many years of involvement and research that even remotely measure up as far as objectivity and could withstand peer review. These studies do NOT recommend mixing or clustering as a first choice. I'm not going to go redo my research for your benefit right now, but I remember one of the studies was referenced by Dr. Dina Brulles of Paradise Valley when she was here in Seattle a couple years ago. Its bottom line was that self-contained HC helps all students with measured achievement.
A very specific form of cluster grouping is recommended for situations where there are not enough students to form self-contained classrooms. As far as I know, this type of cluster grouping is not practiced anywhere in Seattle. Even worse than that, at one school with a hugely disingenuous principal, he decided that cluster grouping meant disbursing the HC as thinly as possible across all classrooms!
The unassailable fact is that very few teachers can or even want to effectively differentiate, even in situations where it's feasible to do effectively, like a class with +/- 1 standard deviation of ability and achievement levels. When student needs span a very wide range there is no other realistic way to meet student needs other than self-contained classes. You can continue to live in a dream world where you believe otherwise, but that's all it is.
When people claim "studies" exist that show otherwise, they're based on pre-determined goals, egalitarian notions, fuzzy claims of unmeasurable student characteristics (we want well-rounded students), etc. I'm not saying that those goals are all undesirable, but good luck constructing a meaningful study based on those. Good and great citizens come from all forms of classrooms.
It's so sad that we keep having these conversations.
Thank you! If only everyone had your common sense on this topic. We should all want what's best for our children, and that's great. What sucks is when people think they need to tear down others' opportunities along the way.
I was at a school where kids did walk-to-math for a while, and they even used flexible grouping where the kids were assessed after each unit/topic and the groups were re-balanced. Yet, there were so many parent complaints about which group their kids were in, that the program was shut down. Too much parental ego.
If they were left behind to be babysat because other kids were learning and they weren't considered worth teaching at all, I'd be mad
Absolutely. ALL kids deserve to learn. I think (hope!) that's what most parents want.
What's wrong with dividing kids into 3 groups? The kids who need more time and explanation to get the concept should get that time, get the extra practice and work until they master the concepts. They should also get a teacher who is just as capable of teaching as the kids in the higher groups
I don't think there's anything wrong with this, but it seems a lot of people (including, sadly, a lot of educators) think kids are just replaceable widgets, and that's clearly wrong. Like Melissa said above, we don't put every kid that turns out for football on the varsity team, or every kid that plays an instrument in the top band or orchestra, or every kid that walks on stage in the starring role. And yet for some reason there are people who think that academics are somehow different. We might want academics to be different, but they're really not.
I know this is not the case at every school, more so at the elementary level. It's hard to serve outliers well at the K-5 level. Just look at Special Education services.
The district is in big trouble with the state over SpEd and there seems to be more pressure to make it work better for kids. The same can happen with gifted ed. Parents need to put pressure on local principals and the district administration and not let the existence of a self-contained program be a dumping ground for kids who are "hard to challenge".
Many, many parents have tried to get their neighborhood schools to change and have basically been told "my way or the highway" by principals. Parents who want to stay in the neighborhood have a right under SPS policies to receive AL service and I hope the poster goes through with the lawsuit.
And yes, it's selfish. Just like we don't starve our kids because other kids in this messed-up world are starving, parents want a good education for their kids at their neighborhood school.
The bottom line is the district has not insisted that principals serve HC students. By pretending to offer something better with HCC, when really it would truly help many students to challenge them in their neighborhood schools, is the game AL has played for years with full complicity of the rest of the administration and local principals. Parents are put in the position of busing their kids or letting them languish and possibly sustain real harm from an unchallenging atmosphere. I would also encourage a lawsuit to get the district off it's heels.
Brian
I wonder if this is the norm at Thornton Creek?
Does any TC parent/teacher know if TC got a waiver to keep TERC, and if not, by what arrangement is TC allowed to deviate from District's adopted curriculum?
Math-Advocate
I know several kids that were disruptive in their gen ed classroms who subsequent to movig to APP (HC) were much better behaved and more successful. I suppose it is some combination of social and academic factors that contribute to the improved behavior profile that is typically seen in these kids.
This fact alone is sufficient for me to believe that APP (HC) programs are necessary to the success of a small percentage of students.
Parent of 2.
GEM
I usually post under another name, but today I am
Still mathless
Also, so sorry to see TC is using their old math program. There is so much to like about that school. Math...isn't it.
NE Mom
Again, APP is talking about the outling 2 %ile in cognition. These kids actually DO think a bit differently, and the needs are not a simply served by just providing "challenge." in the neighborhood school.
Every single parent I've talked to parents who insisted on keeping their kid at the neighborhood school and then finally did put them in APP, says essentially, "Why ever did I wait?! It is so much more than just academic challenge, and it really is so much better to be IN the school instead trying to force the neighborhood school to be a gifted ed program that it simply can't be."
I would argue fervently that at Lincoln, not only is the work at a pace which is more appropriate, but that the amount of social emotional supports they have to provide is equally as important. These are kids that will come off like a 16 year old going on 35 and they are actually 7, but then 10 minutes later turn into a crying mess because there stuffed animal fell on the floor.
I don't think it is possible to provide the same services in every school for every HC kids, because it is the whole program combined that does it. You are literally short changing your HC kid in many ways by not accessing the HCC, in my opinion.
And yes, while there is no curriculum across all of APP, there certainly is curriculum at Lincoln. The second graders all do a whole project on democracy and community, for example, and the other grades have similar "curricula". It is not the same at TM or Fairmont park, but there is a curruculum.
It's not much different than a language immersion program in this way, really.
Is is really possible to mix mandarin immersion kids in the same class as the Spanish immersion kids and have either of them learn anything?
No, you group them by language.
itsnotjustchallenge
I was there as well. That was not the ridiculous redskins tomahawk chop. That was the school fight song and they pump their fist to "fight, fight, fight". I'll grant you that the kickoffs has a building cadence of bom bum bum then the trombone does a kazoo like up and down raspberry. The only reference to "indians" on campus is a beautiful totem by the office. The "seahawk" mascot is a raptor in school colors of light blue red and white.
In reply: From where I was sitting it did not look like a fist pump. It looked their arms were going from a 90 degree angle to a 180 degree angle ie a Tomahawk chop. A fist pump would be up into the air. Secondly, the drums were playing an stereotypical 'Indian' drumbeat heard in every single bad Hollywood cowboy movie. Every other high school football game I have been too, the band, if there is one, plays a drumroll at the kickoffs. This was the only high school that played that BUM-bum-bum-bum BUM-bum-bum-bum (Indian war drum beat from Hollywood movies) at their kickoffs.
Yes there were no other overt references to Indians and yes their mascot is the Seahawk but the rest of it, I found offensive as did my Native American friends.
HP
HP
HP
Because they not only think faster than other kids; they think differently.
Because all of the research has shown that they need a different kind of instruction.
For perfectly legitimate pedagogical reasons.
I'm sorry if these were perceived as slights to Native Americans, because they were not intended to, in any respect whatsoever.
RR, parents are entitled to seek redress if the district does fulfill promises. The parent in question said he/she was "exploring" the idea and I said think it's a valid thing to do. YOU get to think it's a waste of time and money but others may think differently.
As for the time and money, the district has spent a lot of legal time and money over lawsuits that they should never have allowed to see the light of day.
Again, we can disagree on this issue but to go around and around in circles is really tiresome.
I note that no one who is against highly capable programs explained why it's okay for music/sports programs. I know A LOT of parents who thought their athlete was a "special snowflake."
The emotional component argument lacks heft only because you'll find sensitive, emotionally labile, and
intuit students across all spectrum. Some come with IEPs of EDB/autism (and some groups of kids get EDB attached labels with greater frequency). Talk to those parents and you'll find a well of pain and frustration.
Suspect despite all the difference of opinions, many here have far more in common. Hurt feelings being one.
reader
"Why is one group allowed to separate? Surely the bright and the average also have unique needs and learning styles different from the other groups.
My kids are above average but not geniuses, but not struggling.
Why don't they get a program that buses them to a school filled with like ability students who can progress
at a faster rate than they can with less capable students?"
so the question is, as i read it,
the above average yet not HC kids have style of learning and academic needs different than struggling students or even average ability kids so why don't they have a program where they can get bused to be with like-abled students? They get bored while the teacher keeps a pace to accommodate the struggling and average. Just because the law doesn't mandate that their needs be met to bring out their full potential shouldn't mean they are relegated to mentoring other students or reading when they should be learning more math.
I'm not one to say that HCC should be dismantled but where is the fairness for the rest of the students? I see how a kid with a CogAT in the mid 80's percentile is in classes twiddling their thumbs as the teacher works with average IQ kids. A lot of twiddling.
The district appears to be happy to give the kids who can get into HCC a refuge from the masses. As many have said they don't get different anything, just acceleration. that and a homogenous
group which, if it helps them so much, why deny it to the mid 80 percentile group or the 50 percentile group?
"all the studies",I don't think so. Yes, the 145+ IQ kids are often incompatible with standard pedagogy,but that is a small subset of the HCC. Much research is showing that differences as measured by cognitive tests is not the factor in learning it was once thought to be.
Think about what we are saying to kids, you're smart but not smart enough to go the HCC school so you stay in class with kids who are struggling, help them, be patient while they catch up, read quietly when you're done with your work, give someone else a chance to answer, don't work ahead, help me out with busy work in the classroom. All the things that happen to HC kids that makes their parents upset and put them on the bus to HCC.
Sunbeam
It is because you group that you can appropriately serve.
I fully agree that neighborhood schools should be challenging all kids, and that is what spectrum was designed to help do better, but since it is all but formally dismantled, it is not happening.
The thing is that we can't really have it both ways but everyone wants to have it both ways. They want every school to individualize instruction for their kid.
Unless and until we have schools that are fully funded with reasonable class sizes, this is simply an impossible task. Grouping kids is how you appropriately manage the very real work load of teaching different kids. This myth that all teachers can differentiate across 4-5 levels is crazy.
Kids that are getting language immersion get grouped together.
Kids that are on either end of the cognition spectrum get grouped together.
Kids are grouped by age and grade.
To expect that a neighborhood school that has 1 or two kids that are outliers should get tons more resources to serve those 1 or 2 kids when there is already an organized program and schools meant to serve these kids IS selfish.
Our school system is already so significantly underfunded that if you wanted to make a difference for you kid, what you should be fighting for is a fully funded system, not wasting time and energy on how to siphon of $$s from already strapped schools.
If you have an HC kid, and you insist on keeping them in a general classroom when there ARE HC services readily available through the HCC, it is the same thing as insisting that your kid should be held back a grade but the teacher should be teaching them the next grades curriculum. It just doesn't make sense to me.
Put them in the right class for them instead.
itsnotjustchallenge
Secondly, it is because you insist on everyone being in the same class altogether that you end up with this situation where only SOME of the kids actually get moved forward in their education.
Sit patiently while we work on stuff from last year for the 3 students that are behind get focused instruction. No, this should not be happening to any kids, but when you insist on putting kids of 4-5 different grade levels all int he same class together, that is what happens. It is impossible to teach 5 levels all at the same time.
itsnotjustchallenge
In other words, families would be notified of APP/HCC qualification AND receive a default assignment to the program for the following year. They would have to opt *out* and perhaps even sign off on it, acknowleding that, according to the district, optimal placement for children who score 2 or more standard deviations from the norm is in APP/HCC.
Thoughts? Anyone else think the idea has merit? Was it discussed by the recent task forces?
State law (WAC 392-170-047) requires that the district receive parental permission before placing a student in the program.
Tired of beating my head against a brick wall to no effect, I just keep a smile on my face and move along with the stream, while assessing what my kids need and providing it out of school. This is working quite well, but wouldn't for a family with two working parents or parents that are less experienced in education. So it is a system that is tilted toward people like me, well-educated and willing and able to figure out solutions. And toward people who can afford private school and get their HC kid into a program that meets their need to be challenged, develop perseverance, and learn what it's like when everything isn't always super easy.
asdf
I do strongly agree that the neighborhood schools in certain areas need a mechanism for raising the rigor to a level that's more appropriate for the population they serve.
B.
I have a kid who misses things on tests, doesn't always understand everything, works well with her peers, and knows that missed problems on a test while disappointing, are not the end of the world. She has to look at where she made mistakes, shake it off and try to course correct. She knows how to work. She knows there are people better at some subjects than she is, and can live with that. She may save the world one day.
My HC kid has learned this through her unchallenging public school experience: She is smarter than everyone else in the room, doesn't need to try, and never fails. How is she going to save the world with those traits?
Why is she in gen ed? I fell for the ALO speech during school tours, and wanted both kids in the same school as they needed each other's support when they were younger. Why does she think she's smart? Because every other kid in the class tells her that, introduces her to their parents as the smartest kid in the class, etc. We don't talk to her that way at home. I finally have her in an on-line math course that is truly challenging, and she is learning she is not the smartest kid in the [virtual] room, that she has to work to learn, and how it feels to face a problem you have no idea how to solve and just start to chip away at it. And the ultimate joy that comes with solving such a problem. These are life skills she needs, no matter what she decides to do with her life.
asdf
Exactly. When you leave an HC kid in the neighborhood school they end up not having to do anything to be labeled the smart kid, and in some cases even marginalized and bullied.
Having an HC kid in the HCC means they actually have to work and learn and grow. They aren't always the smartest kid in the class and skating by. They are actually getting an education.
I think it is far more damaging for an HC kid to have the perception that they are always the best by being the top of their class without really needing to do much. Wait until the real world hits them when they are older.
Smarts doesn't mean success in this world. For all of the voices on here that think that HC kids should be "integrated" and blended in general ed classrooms for their own good, the opposite is actually the reality.
It is damaging to both the kids in the class who feel awful every time that kid aces the test again and they didn't understand, AND to the HC kid who didn't ever have to work to learn.
itsnotjustchallenge
-opter
I wonder if it would suffice to grant that permission at the time that the parents grant permission to test? That is, by agreeing to have your child tested, you are agreeing to a placement based on the results. Would that work?
He'd be so much more comfortable and successful in school if was with his peers in appearance. The other kids feel bad being around him because they will never be as good looking and would feel better if he wasn't around. Is there an HCC for him(Highly Cute Cohort)?
Toopretty
The thought came to me again today though because someone upthread is considering suing the district for not providing APP/HCC services to their child at a neighborhood school. That just seems strange to me given that there is a program designed to serve that child's needs but the family didn't "opt in" to it.
Over the years, I've also read posts on this blog from people who suggest that the opt in design is a barrier to enrollment for families who aren't used to or don't have time to navigate thru bureacracies. Or worse, for families who are counseled to remain local to help keep test scores up (again, that's something I've read here over the years). Maybe having to opt *out* would increase socioeconomic diversity in the program?
And, I don't know how much this goes on anymore once they started using MAP as a hard screen, but back when my family tested and it was a parent-driven process, people did in fact sign their kids up for testing with no intention of moving them. I've spoken to parents who were just curious what their kids' results might be and there was no down-side to taking the test.
So, maybe a mandatory assignment based on test results would increase diversity and reduce unnecessary testing? I don't know. I'm just posing questions for discussion.
But suing the district because you didn't avail yourself of the recommended intervention is still weird to me. It would be like the school noticing that my child needs glasses but me saying, "No, thanks. You should just write bigger on the board, and give him worksheets with a bigger font because getting glasses would be too inconvenient for me." I'm sure that's not a perfect analogy, but it's close, IMHO.
Until recently, there was never a promise that APP kids' needs would be met locally, but the opt in nature of the program seems to imply it. And, the task force recommendations even say now that some sort of "modified" services will be provided, so that promise is clearly being made to families as of this school year.
sheeesh
and
"Access to accelerated learning and enhanced instruction through the program for highly capable students does not constitute an individual entitlement for any particular student."
I think these are the key phrases for someone considering litigation. Qualified students have access to APP/HCC services (with transportation), so why would someone opt out and think their child is entitled to services outside of the designated schools?
parent
Maybe not to the kid and the parents but the costs to the district testing all those kids who were going nowhere? Huge. Remember the majority of money goes for testing, not PD and better ways to reach these kids.
Lori, it is unclear to me whether the student whose parents may sue has an APP-qualified student or Spectrum. It matters because yes, I believe the district is obligated to service all APP students,whether at an APP school or not. They very much could have a case if that is true.
Not trying to launch into a fed jur lecture, just not sure if you mean wa state Supreme Court or the 9th circuit (who would not control on this issue, unless they are bringing up federal issues I am not aware of).
Generally I agree with Lori, about how obliged local schools need to be to serve HCC designated students who could go to an HCC school. I do think that all local schools should offer more in the way of advanced learning opportunities to all students, though. I don't think they need to serve every single advanced learner, but they should be serving many more than they currently are.
-sleeper
Congratulations! You win the most specious argument of the year award! Your inability to engage in meaningful discourse proves my point: best to just take care of one's own kids. One can't fight a tidal wave of prejudice and willful ignorance.
asdf
If you have a kid that is good at sports, be sure to tell him to use his non-dominant hand for throwing the ball, and be sure his shoes don't fit so he can't run well. You don't want him to outperform anyone, or further develop his already too strong skills, so don't let him practice. Try to get him on a team that is younger than he is and less experienced. That will help hold him back so he won't improve. By the time he's grown he'll be really average at what used to be his special talent, and all the other parents will still like you.
a mom
How all, yes Charlie, you and others have said all, the research says they must be separated. How there is no right to expect service at local schools. And the real insult, how miserable they have it at their overcrowded Lincoln, forgetting the six or is it ten levels of music at WMS and Hamilton. The money that flows like water into the HCC schools,, the lack od diversity. I read the discussAPP blog and the posters are obsessed with IBX english and Ivy league schools when in other parts of our city kids deal with graduating HS. I think Toopretty"s post was cute, like her boy. I'm surprised people took it so literally.
Hippie
BTW, kudos to Lawton for teacher of the year in the person of Lyon Terry. That school has been hammered a few times for introducing "cluster grouping" into our lexicon. Thank goddess they have the best teacher in the state!
Hippie
Amen!
bookless
Amen!!!
-teflon
It's not about you, or your kid. My other kid is in class with your kid and I'm thrilled with that because my other kid is learning. My HC kid is in class with your kid and is not learning math. I'm not wanting something different for my kid because something is wrong with your kid. I'm wanting different for my kid because my kid is not learning. My kid is not learning because the school is not teaching my kid. The school is "not worried" about my kid because my kid already knows everything they are responsible for teaching this year. They will start teaching my kid when they've neglected her long enough that she is finally at grade level. Until then, she can be bored, get lazy, and learn to hate school. You may be happy if my kid ends up like that, but I'm not.
asdf
That's the part that is irritating.It's analogous to saying that good looking kids should be removed because they make the rest feel bad, or Nobel Laureates should be living in special enclaves and not speak to the ordinary folk.Why is it so awful for kids to see each others' abilities? Now if the teacher won't challenge the kids who ace the tests by differentiating, that's on the teacher and should be rectified, or the school should pull out advanced math students or create walkto's or if you like, send them to HCC. Just don't keep repeating that idea of doing the rest of the kids a big favor by moving out the HC kids. Think for a minute about how that sounds regarding kids who are below grade level; we don't say they shouldn't be around higher performing students, do we? What about SpEd students? Isn't it good for kids to be around others of different abilities for its own sake? Don't we want our kids to appreciate each other for who they are as people not how well they do on tests?I don't care where you send your kid just don't tell me how good it is for mine to not be around kids who are born with a better propensity for mathematics. That is patently ridiculous and offensive.If the district can get its act together and serve most HC students in a heterogeneous environment it would benefit all students. If it can't then then there's the HCC, but don't you set the straw man, asdf, 'cause its BS.
qwerty
jkl;
who should we group? the top three so the really struggling get a narrower range or should the lowest three levels be grouped and give the top level a smaller range? or two levels in each group?
zxcv
uiop
That said , I think it would be fabulous to provide additional support for struggling students. Isn't that what MTSS is supposed to do?
HIMSmom
the range of the top 1/5 is essential
infinite as it goes from 98% to the the most capable student possible, who could be a prodigy with an IQ over 200. I doubt such a child would be very well served at any school however. There should really be a program for the prodigies and extreme outliers. At 8th grade there is the UW program for skipping high school and going straight to college but nothing like that for younger children and the UW program is quite small, less than thirty children I believe. I would advocate for a highly selective program for the top 1/2% or 3/4% nationally normed. Say IQ's over 150. Guessing probably 50-100 or so in the district, but a very different group than the average HCC student and with an even greater need of a cohort and specialized instruction.
Dad
What would you do with the remaining 2,800 APP students? Their neighborhood schools in most cases have no interest in educating them.
Dad
Dad
I'm afraid these very outlying students are getting lost in the shuffle of HCC and sitting on their hands a lot.
Dad