Assignment Plan Community Meeting #1
This meeting turned out to be more interesting than I thought but that was mostly due to parents who asked some fairly pointed questions about the waitlist.
Ashley Davies, the director of Enrollment, was the lead for the evening. (Flip Herndon was at a Work Session and it will be interesting to see if he handles any of the other community meetings.)
There were about 50 parents who came to Ingraham for the meeting. There was an issue right from the start because Ms. Davies had brought copies of the Board-approved 2009 SAP and the 2013-2014 Transition Plan which are the documents the district is attempting to combine AND streamline. The issue was there was no current document available and Ms. Davies did not convey that point to parents. She did not say when it would be (but the board was told "before Friday.")
She said did not explain why the district thought they could put forth such a hacked-up document to the board and not have questions raised. She said that the "descriptive information" in the SAP was "helpful" and yet didn't explain why they tried to do away with it beyond "streamlining."
She did say there would be NO changes to the 2009 SAP. What she didn't say (and I forgot to ask) is about this issue of "clean up language" which was repeatedly brought up at the C&I meeting on Monday with the board. PLEASE someone, at the other two meetings, please ask her to define "clean up language" because I perceive this could be a key element to watch over.
She made a couple of statements that either were not true or she improperly phrased her reply. She claimed that there are "no pathways" in the 2009 SAP. Yes, there are. She also said, in response to a question about boundaries, that there were no boundary changes. A couple of us told her, yes, there just recently were boundary changes in West Seattle.
I think this is yet another key topic - boundaries and the SAP. She didn't say it but I think most parents know that boundaries will be adjusted over the next couple of years as new buildings - Lincoln, the Wilson-Pacific buildings and others - come on-line. Trying to divorce the two is folly.
As I said, the biggest issue was the waitlist. Key problems raised:
- why does it have to be May 31st and not closer to the start of school like August 15 to dissolve the list? Ms. Davies said that other districts have a May date for dissolving their waitlists, it would move waitlists faster and provide more information earlier on to schools.
She seemed to get tangled up in this issue of moving the waitlist faster, saying there would be "more seats." One attendee, Heidi Bennett who is another long-time parent/activist, asked how there could be more seats in an already over-crowded district. Ms. Davies could not clear this up but I believe she was trying to say that there would be more clarity sooner with an earlier dissolve.
- why can't there be TWO waitlists? This got asked several times in several ways and it primarily revolves around two concerns.
Concern #1 - Option schools not filling because the waitlist gets dissolved too soon. Meaning, shifts AFTER May 31st could leave open seats that would not be filled even though there may be people willing to take those seats. This could lead to understaffing at these schools.
It was pointed out, and Ms. Davies, agreed that dissolving the waitlist would not solve staffing problems.
Concern#2 - That any open seats - at any school - could be claimed by any new-to-the-district student after May 31st. That new student's parents could come in,and basically say, "What's open?" and claim that seat.
This jogged my memory as I recall that former School Board director, Don Nielsen, during a previous SAP discussion (probably around 2002), had stated that it was wrong to allow that kind of thing to happen. He spoke of parents "investing" in Seattle Schools and so THEY should have first dibs, not people who just got here.
Should people moving to Seattle Schools (especially those coming from local private schools) get assignment to just their attendance area school?
Should there be two waitlists - one for attendance area schools that dissolves on May 31st and one for Option schools that dissolves on August 15th?
There is also another concern around dissolving the waitlist sooner and that the gamemanship that could go on which would become a major equity issue. It may be possible, unless definitively prohibited, that a parent could wait to see if spots are there AFTER the waitlist is gone and then move their child into one. That would only be something that someone with the time to keep checking and then, get down and claim a spot, could do.
Kellie LaRue asked a major policy point - what is the problem the district is trying to solve? I had to leave before the answer came but that's a good question. Is moving the waitlist date so that more families/schools know their enrollment situation sooner? Is it an accommodation to make life easier for the district more than families?
Here's what it looks like - that all of this is a capacity problem, not an enrollment problem. Rather than just admitting there is no space, they need to have control of the Enrollment plan to fit everyone. Having to go to the Board for approval may slow them down.
There did seem to be a belief that Enrollment isn't doing much during the summer and Ms. Davies hastened to dispel that belief. She talked about the "clean up" that Enrollment must do during the summer. But, if the waitlist moves earlier, wouldn't that clean up happen earlier? Why, of all the SPS departments to close (or power down) in the summer, would Enrollment be one of them?
Ashley Davies, the director of Enrollment, was the lead for the evening. (Flip Herndon was at a Work Session and it will be interesting to see if he handles any of the other community meetings.)
There were about 50 parents who came to Ingraham for the meeting. There was an issue right from the start because Ms. Davies had brought copies of the Board-approved 2009 SAP and the 2013-2014 Transition Plan which are the documents the district is attempting to combine AND streamline. The issue was there was no current document available and Ms. Davies did not convey that point to parents. She did not say when it would be (but the board was told "before Friday.")
She said did not explain why the district thought they could put forth such a hacked-up document to the board and not have questions raised. She said that the "descriptive information" in the SAP was "helpful" and yet didn't explain why they tried to do away with it beyond "streamlining."
She did say there would be NO changes to the 2009 SAP. What she didn't say (and I forgot to ask) is about this issue of "clean up language" which was repeatedly brought up at the C&I meeting on Monday with the board. PLEASE someone, at the other two meetings, please ask her to define "clean up language" because I perceive this could be a key element to watch over.
She made a couple of statements that either were not true or she improperly phrased her reply. She claimed that there are "no pathways" in the 2009 SAP. Yes, there are. She also said, in response to a question about boundaries, that there were no boundary changes. A couple of us told her, yes, there just recently were boundary changes in West Seattle.
I think this is yet another key topic - boundaries and the SAP. She didn't say it but I think most parents know that boundaries will be adjusted over the next couple of years as new buildings - Lincoln, the Wilson-Pacific buildings and others - come on-line. Trying to divorce the two is folly.
As I said, the biggest issue was the waitlist. Key problems raised:
- why does it have to be May 31st and not closer to the start of school like August 15 to dissolve the list? Ms. Davies said that other districts have a May date for dissolving their waitlists, it would move waitlists faster and provide more information earlier on to schools.
She seemed to get tangled up in this issue of moving the waitlist faster, saying there would be "more seats." One attendee, Heidi Bennett who is another long-time parent/activist, asked how there could be more seats in an already over-crowded district. Ms. Davies could not clear this up but I believe she was trying to say that there would be more clarity sooner with an earlier dissolve.
- why can't there be TWO waitlists? This got asked several times in several ways and it primarily revolves around two concerns.
Concern #1 - Option schools not filling because the waitlist gets dissolved too soon. Meaning, shifts AFTER May 31st could leave open seats that would not be filled even though there may be people willing to take those seats. This could lead to understaffing at these schools.
It was pointed out, and Ms. Davies, agreed that dissolving the waitlist would not solve staffing problems.
Concern#2 - That any open seats - at any school - could be claimed by any new-to-the-district student after May 31st. That new student's parents could come in,and basically say, "What's open?" and claim that seat.
This jogged my memory as I recall that former School Board director, Don Nielsen, during a previous SAP discussion (probably around 2002), had stated that it was wrong to allow that kind of thing to happen. He spoke of parents "investing" in Seattle Schools and so THEY should have first dibs, not people who just got here.
Should people moving to Seattle Schools (especially those coming from local private schools) get assignment to just their attendance area school?
Should there be two waitlists - one for attendance area schools that dissolves on May 31st and one for Option schools that dissolves on August 15th?
There is also another concern around dissolving the waitlist sooner and that the gamemanship that could go on which would become a major equity issue. It may be possible, unless definitively prohibited, that a parent could wait to see if spots are there AFTER the waitlist is gone and then move their child into one. That would only be something that someone with the time to keep checking and then, get down and claim a spot, could do.
Kellie LaRue asked a major policy point - what is the problem the district is trying to solve? I had to leave before the answer came but that's a good question. Is moving the waitlist date so that more families/schools know their enrollment situation sooner? Is it an accommodation to make life easier for the district more than families?
Here's what it looks like - that all of this is a capacity problem, not an enrollment problem. Rather than just admitting there is no space, they need to have control of the Enrollment plan to fit everyone. Having to go to the Board for approval may slow them down.
There did seem to be a belief that Enrollment isn't doing much during the summer and Ms. Davies hastened to dispel that belief. She talked about the "clean up" that Enrollment must do during the summer. But, if the waitlist moves earlier, wouldn't that clean up happen earlier? Why, of all the SPS departments to close (or power down) in the summer, would Enrollment be one of them?
Comments
That said, I think that the stated goals of dissolving the waitlists early make no sense. Davies said outright that this doesn't fix the problem of predictability for the schools. She was hanging her hat on it being for predictability for parents. Many parents in the audience said they didn't care so much about predictability as long as the waitlists moved, and the district could deal with lack of predictability by telling them when the waitlists would move next.
Many parents were uncomfortable that the plan for dissolving waitlists May 31 depends on actions yet to be taken (making it a staff priority in May, etc.).
I proposed a solution last night (and will go to the Board with it) as follows:
Don't change the official waitlist policy now.
Notify parents and schools that this year is a pilot project to determine if the May 31 approach works, and that they don't expect to move the waitlist after May 31.
Do everything they can to move the waitlists by May 31.
Hold the waitlists open over the summer, just in case.
See if they need to move the waitlists again in late August.
Then it's a pilot project that accomplishes the same goal as the policy change, but it's all within current policy. If it works, it can be enshrined for next year. If it's a disaster, we still have the waitlists and can move them in August.
Kelly and others quickly pointed out that, with the capacity issues and the fact that many parents do not convey their intention to move their children out of the dictrict before the end of the year, or summer, if at all - "predictability" would not be the result of moving the waitlist date.
As I wrote on the SFT page and to the directors - "One of the most telling moments in the room tonight, by far, was when a community member (Kelly) remarked that everything the district is doing with the transition plan, particularly in regards to the wait-list dissolution date change, might help the district staff, but would do very little to really help district families."
HP
HP, I guess that's the plan.
I think it much better if they move the waitlist sooner but I also see their could be problems/hiccups.
I'm with Eric; pilot this first.
Are there any rules are in place for un-enrolling then re-enrolling in SPS.
The problem doesn't seem to be that the wait lists last too long, just that the district doesn't move through them in timely fashion.
HF
HF, good points.
Helen
Al
Al
If it serves their interests to move the waitlists by May 31, then why haven't they ever done so?
If it is better for everyone to move the waitlists by May 31, then why haven't they ever done so?
Here's what I think: I think that they won't move the waitlists any more before May 31 than they ever have, they will simply abandon the work on that day.
When our son got off a wait list in Sept. he was able to get into a high school that was far closer for our family. It was a HUGE relief.
There is always movement in the fall. Why not keep the waitlists and make one last effort to satisfy families who want a different school?
SPS must become more attentive to family needs than its own. My kids are out of college now and I am still waiting.
S parent
For some schools (neighborhood schools) the distance tiebreaker has been instrumental in keeping communities together after boundary changes that split a neighborhood right down the middle. Letting kids from the same neighborhood keep going to school together (provided there is room, as there was in our case) facilitates shared transportation and childcare, after-school playdates, bike trains, etc. However, there is a conflict between the District's goals of providing neighborhood-oriented schools and providing lots of choice. Someone suggested that the distance tiebreaker stay in place for neighborhood schools but be eliminated for option schools and that makes a TON of sense to me.
As boundary changes continue to roll out, other schools will likely have the same experience of inaccurate predictions, leading to open seats at neighborhood schools with reduced boundaries. Keeping the distance tiebreaker allows as many kids as possible from just outside the boundary to keep going to school with their neighbors, as I believe is intended.
--Keep The Distance Tiebreaker for Neighborhood Schools
In my past 8 years of experience the day the Wait list moves the most is after the fourth day of school. That is the day that any hold back seats for students that might move into the district over the summer, confirmation of no shows, and services such as SpecEd are released.
Will this practice be revised to perhaps overbook a school based on the number of hold back seats that normally open up at a specific school? What other changes in process are intended so that Wait lists will actually move before May 31?
-StepJ
reader47
Next Wednesday is the last Board meeting for this Board make-up. The Board has several big items (maybe more; the agenda isn't up yet).
1) Bell Times - all quiet on the western front so I'm supposing the Board is likely to vote for what staff is putting forward as their main option. My take is that they feel voting on this one is a vote for progress towards better academic outcomes despite the unfairness for the 13 schools in Tier Three.
2) Assignment Plan - I think it VERY worth it to lobby for a change to the waitlist date (or, at the very least, make sure it says it's a PILOT change for one year only). Hearing the Board members speak at the Curriculum & Instruction ctm, it is clear they do NOT want to leave the parents confused (and, secondarily, unhappy.) The document presented needs to be crystal clear.
I don't think this Board wants to leave this to the next group but I would hope that this, the most important document for parents, would be something they don't want to get (knowingly) wrong.
3) review of Superintendent's contract. I think this will be an interesting vote. The Board - who makes this decision - has not presented ONE SINGLE piece of evidence to the public or parents why Nyland should get a raise and/or contract extension. Are they waiting until the vote comes up to explain their thinking? I think that is a big mistake.
Because, the majority could leave parents (and maybe some in the public) enraged. How can the district cry poor - across the board - and give Nyland a raise/extension with no evidence?
I think the vote on his contract could influence how parents see the coming levies. And whether it is a vote against one or both levies or just a lack of campaigning by parents to friends, neighbors, colleagues and family, it could hurt one or both levies.
That's a dangerous place to leave the district as they leave.
But it seems that all four of them leaving truly think he's great so it's hard to say what will happen.
Fight until the vote.
MBS
SPS proceeds as usual but abandons the work 5/31 (like Charlie says), then says there isn't enough interest to sustain the programs because of low enrollment even though parents are still clamoring to get their kids into option schools! But too bad the wait list has been dissolved.
The reason I say this is my kids are in an option program and their class sizes are small this year. Big win for them and us, but so unfair to the kids in traditional schools that are bursting at the seams!!
Ugh, there has to be a better way.
MM
TC
Bitter
It was clear to me that staff really feels that the waitlist movement and management in September is a problem. However, I don't know what problem they think they are solving with this change.
I remember a conversation back, in the pre-closure time, when a very articulate person from Transportation explained at a community meeting, just how challenging wait list moves were on transportation. She explained that every student movement could mean up to 4-5 bus route changes. This then meant that transportation was not predictable for hundreds of families.
This was in the context of the big ... Therefore, we need students at their neighborhood school because too much choice is creating this problem.
I responded that for my family, we were bus eligible for all schools because we did not have a walkable school (we live close to a closed school, that has since been sold off) and we would never be on a school bus because while our school was pretty close, it was over an hour by school bus.
At that time, I had no way to decline transportation. So she was re-calculating bus routes for my students, who did not ride the bus and I had no way to help.
Based on that meeting, the following year, there was a way to decline transportation, so they didn't keep re-routing buses.
Once the problem is daylighted, there was the possibility of a solution.
However, her answers really illuminated how interconnected systems are and why parent feel so much frustration at isolated solutions.
The waitlist isn't just a waitlist. It is also the mechanism by which the option school lottery is managed. It is the way that split siblings are re-united. It is the way that AL testing is implemented and students re-assigned. It is the way that native speakers are assigned to LI schools. It is the way that pathways for special programs are managed.
The distance tie breaker isn't just a tie breaker. It is the also the way that boundary changes are managed.
The legacy of site based management and the choice systems is complicated.
At the beginning of the change to the NSAP, a key value was keeping families and communities together. There were hundreds of community meetings where the rhetoric was .. you can stay at your current school and we will do everything to keep siblings together when we make the change. By the time, it was implemented, this changed to "space available" for siblings.
There is a huge change happening with regard to "staying at your current school." Previously, once you started at a school, that was it. Unless you changed addresses, you could finish where you started.
Now, Grandfathering is ... if space is available.
reader47
-HS Parent
I'm a huge Alt school fan, so I definitely preferred the old SAP, but most SPS families insisted they wanted "predictability." They wanted "neighborhood schools." They got those things exactly as requested. They knew boundaries would have to be redrawn on occasion, but they chose to support the short run "predictability" of placement (not class size or school size or sibling placement or program quality....just a known building to go to.)
Is there a good specific question I should ask?
"They knew boundaries would have to be redrawn on occasion, but they chose to support the short run "predictability" of placement (not class size or school size or sibling placement or program quality....just a known building to go to.)"
There were boundary changes back in 2010, when the NSAP was implemented. The difference between then and now was that there were grandfathered assignments so kids could stay at their established schools, even if the attendance boundaries changed. For several years there was even grandfathered transportation (what a concept!).
I honestly don't think that anyone who has chosen for their child to attend their "neighborhood school" did so thinking that it wouldn't be their child's permanent placement (through the highest grade level offered).
I am hoping that grandfathering "if available" doesn't make it into the latest round of SAP revisions...otherwise there are going to be many, many surprised and outraged families in coming years, but I guess we won't find out what wording makes it in the SAP until late tomorrow afternoon?
-North-end Mom
The phrase "if available" was brought up. Her response was much the same as Tuesday, "there are a lot of factors that go into determining if seats are available" she said they hoped a child who ended up in a new boundary after redistricting would still be able to stay at the school they've been attending, but it would just depend on how many seats were needed for the students who were actually living in the new boundaries. So, sounds as if the that phrase is staying.
I also asked about the proposal for a pilot program. She said those comments were run by "the board", but they really need a definite date for dissolving the waitlist, and feel there's too much uncertainty allowing people to think it's not a deadline.
Another parent from Pathfinder suggested they try making all the changes they're talking about making to get the wait-list to move faster, and see if that actually happens before they set this May 31 date, since it seemed they were counting on quite a few uncontrollable factors to make it possible to actually dissolve the wait-list on May 31. Clearly, they chose May 31, and absolutely nothing will make them reconsider.
Sounds like
http://www.seattleschools.org/UserFiles/Servers/Server_543/File/District/Departments/Enrollment%20Planning/Student%20Assignment%20Plan/TRANSITION_PLAN_FINAL%202013-14.pdf
On the topic of the distance tie breaker, it was discussed. However peoples concerns about it were met with phrases like. "people will still have a spot at their neighborhood school.", this will make it more equal..."boundaries have to be drawn somewhere" when people pointed out things like living 3 blocks from one school and being zoned to another. "kids who are at a school will be grandfathered in.
I don't think SPS realize people are also thinking about I buy a house that is 3 blocks away from a school when my kid is 3 and then when they are 5 they are zoned elsewhere.
As to May 31, they seem to be stuck on it. While Ashley Davies answered questions there were a lot of things she seemed to be unable to answer for someone who is Director of Enrollment and Planning.
There were questions about how they will move the wait list faster and she couldn't answer it. I was the one that suggested trying all these things to move it faster and leave the date as it is for now.
The answer to that and any mention of changing the date was "we need to set a date. Parents and teachers need to be able to plan"
I think parents are not interested in planning so much as getting their kid in the school they really want.
She also mentioned talking to staff in various building and she said that they like the idea of being able to plan better. I would like to know how many they really talked to and how they phrased the question.
I do find it interesting at these meetings that there were no comment cards for parents, the emails of the relevant offices to contact weren't on the slides. Emails were given when I asked but I feel that is one of those things that SPS should just have as standard. Unless Flip was taking notes there was no official note taking.
There were 4 translators that were not needed . There were about 10 people total who showed up including a couple who self identified as this being their second meeting.
One kind of scary thing someone mentioned was...does the district plan to overenroll schools based on past movement to make sure all spots are filled. Ashley Davies was somewhat evasive on this questions. She said well we would need to discuss that with individual schools.
I also asked that if they close the wait list for an option school may 31 and those seats aren't filled are they going to guarantee that they won't lose staff in the fall if they are under enrolled at the time.
I also said that my daughters school and option school runs at about 100%, perhaps a little less in upper grades because our principal makes an effort to fill those seats off the wait list. How is closing it early going to help planning. Well those kids then transfer from somewhere else.
In general we need more of a buffer basically so that if a classroom isn't at max one year, so be it.
I mentioned the issue of "choice seats" to both Herndon and Davies at the C&I meeting. Pretty blank looks. I asked, "why have this if there are none and almost never have been?" They didn't say what they said to you but this is likely part of the clean-up.
I guess the district could say there IS rigor at all high schools and they have expanded IB to the north and south. But the district made a very conscious effort in years back to NOT have cookie-cutter high schools and it seems sad that some kids cannot get into Ballard's Bio-tech or highly regarded video production programs. Or Roosevelt's drama program (which includes classes.) Or the jazz band programs. And even the STEM at Cleveland program because they are deliberately underenrolling it.
No comment cards - that's odd because there were at the first meeting.
"Does the district plan to overenroll schools based on past movement to make sure all spots are filled?"
As for a pilot waitlist date - they can do this. All they have to do is tell the Board they are trying this for next year and will report back on how well it works. Nothing - as evidenced by their own redlining - is written in stone.
I'm unclear on what you mean - based on past patterns, they will overenroll some school because they know those schools experience a high degree of movement?
While Maureen asked people to not romanticize the old choice plan, don't romanticize the change either.
The change did NOT happen because "people wanted predictability" It happened because there were lots of people who did NOT have a choice. The change happened because
* the families on Queen Anne and Magnolia had not choice about high school and got whatever was left over after other families chose and took this all the way to the Supreme Court!
* families in Lake City did not have a choice about middle school, they got what was left over.
* every cluster had multiple dead zones, where those families got whatever was left over.
The old plan was "Choice for Some" based on whether or not you had an address that was close enough.
For the schools that effectively lose students in wait list moves, this would "look-like" an improvement because it looks like another school stole their students. But that simply is not correct.
Families on a wait list are an indicator that families are making choices to go elsewhere. The wait list gives them chance to go somewhere within the system. If there was not wait list, the would simply make choices to go out of district or elsewhere.
In other words, families that want to leave will find a way to leave. The wait list empowers more people to try to stay.
No one is saying you can't pick a date - just that May 31st is too early for all the reasons discussed above.
reader47
I do think what they are doing to Cleveland is shameful, and always think a pull is preferable to a push. If RB is so bad that many kids want to escape it, improve it. Don't make kids stay there, when you'll let kids at Garfield leave if they want.
-sleeper
HP
That is what the question seemed to be getting at.
This was from a comment/question from a parent at the meeting. One of the comments from Ashley Davies is they will be looking at past enrollment or some such thing to help move the waitlist faster.
Someone asked how would you predict that and ensure there are no empty spaces...basically same answer about looking at past enrollment and we need work on implementing it...
So then parent asked (and I"m paraphrasing)...If you are expecting many students to move, would you over enroll a school to ensure that those spaces are not empty at the end of the year. Ashley Davies didn't out and out say no and she didn't say no and she didn't say yes.
She may just have been completely unprepared for the question but it's an interesting question none the less.
I also find it interesting that there doesn't seem to be a real plan in place to move the wait list faster.
She also said the new document outlining changes should be available today because it has to be posted with the school board agenda.
SMH
Current students should absolutely be grandfathered. Why kick one student out to make room for a new student? Then you have two students starting at a new school rather than just one. I don't know. Maybe this isn't fair to newcomers. But if you are new, you're new. You don't already have a lot invested in a neighborhood to begin with. Does it really make that much difference where you start?
Just a thought.
Al
Crazy
1) how are wait lists even formed before 5/31 if open enrollment runs thru 5/31??are they formed and then dissolved on the same day?
2) why are we accepting the districts assertion that a date change is the way to fix this problem? I counter that a process change in how the wait lists are moved & managed (or not) in September is the (obviously) better solution.
3) why are student and family outcomes seemingly never considered? Yes, this is a rhetorical question.