Friday, June 27, 2014

Friday Open Thread

Update:  it appears that the district is working with the City and the Downtown Seattle Association on a proposal for the former Federal Building.  I am somewhat surprised given the district's seeming lack of interest.  The proposal is due July 3rd.  I have no further details until I hear back from the district capital spokesman on this issue.

End of update.

The West Seattle blog reports on a fire at one play area at Schmitz Park early Thursday morning.  It did $50K in damage to a playground that the district paid for last year.   That likely means it is covered by insurance.  The Fire Department is unsure if it was arson, an accident or spontaneous combustion (from wood chips).  

From Principal Kischner:
“We appreciate the prompt response of the Seattle Fire Department, which prevented what could have been a much more serious outcome. Although the heat was enough to blister paint on the outside of the building and crack numerous windows, there was no damage to the interior or the structure of the building. Mr. McNaughton and school district maintenance responded quickly this morning to secure the area and repair windows. A security fence is expected tomorrow, and it is likely that the damaged structure will be removed fully next week.”

As we learn of an uptick in measles cases in King County, a ruling from NYC over a policy that bars unvaccinated children from being in school when another student comes with a disease that a vaccination could prevent.

In the ruling, Kuntz wrote that the Supreme Court, "strongly suggested that religious objectors are not constitutionally exempt from vaccinations."

Three families filing suit contended that the school policy preventing their unvaccinated children from attending school at risky times is a First Amendment violation of religious freedom. 

I don't want to start a fight but we are living in an area where the numbers of children NOT being vaccinated is rising.  Please, go do your research but understand that having measles come back as a childhood disease is wrong and will hurt many children and adults especially babies.  

There is still a petition out for later start times for secondary schools in  SPS.  Consider reading it and adding your signature. 

What's on your mind?


Anonymous said...

The measles thing is heavily on my mind, as my infant still has several months before he can get his first measles vax. My generation gets a lot of flak about wanting to keep our kids in a bubble but then we're dealing with Old World diseases. I can't just stay inside for the first year of his life, nor should I have to, in this day and age.

-New Mom

Melissa Westbrook said...

It especially becomes problematic if you have a baby and a child in school. You go, with your baby, to pick up your child at school and your baby gets exposed to measles?

Andrea Ptak said...

If someone wants to forgo vaccinations for their child, then they need to accept that there will be times/places where their child may not be welcome.

Born in 1954, I am a product of the first real vaccination push in the US. Because of it I did not get polio (though know a few somewhat older people who did), measles, mumps, or TB. I got chicken pox when I was five and have one no-longer prominent facial scar to prove it. I was lucky.

I did, however, get Rubella in high school, as did many of my friends. One teen was, sadly, pregnant at the time; her child was born with both a heart and hearing defect.

I vaccinated my child born in 1995 (yeah, I was 40) despite the growing movement to do otherwise. It's a personal decision, but with the decision domes consequences. Having your child turned away from school for a few days may be one of them.

Lynn said...

Who authorizes playground equipment purchases? Schmitz Park students will be moving out at the end of 2015. APP elementary students have been at Lincoln how many years without equipment? John Marshall (an interim site) has a new playground. Did the district ever put in equipment at K-5 STEM?

mirmac1 said...


I agree there are a number of sites that deserve but do not have playground equipment. The price for equipment ranges from $22K to $50K (and that's for pre-k sets).

Of course if insurance covers this, then by all means it should be replaced.

The new (short-term) "Early Learning Center" (a city pipe dream with no city $$) at old Van Asselt has no pre-k playground. SPS will be out of pocket - that is IF they put one in.

Anonymous said...

Bad curriculum has harmed more school children than measles.

Funny they use the term "WILD MEASLES" to explain why the disease comes back in to the population. Should they aerial spray to kill all the WILD MEASLES"?

I believe the vaccine companies profits are being harmed by the 60+% drop in vaccination use.This is what is driving the scare tactics. Oh and don't forget the office visit to your $500 per hour doctor!

The CDC is a lame duck bureaucracy, because they never screen nor stop airlines from bringing infected travelers into this country. They just issue warnings after the fact.

When you look at the numbers the whole scare tacit approach doesn't hold up. More people die in falling in the bathtubs in on year than have EVER died from measles.

Want be scared look at SARS, EBOLA, MERS pandemic prospects.

I had measles, mumps, chicken pocks and had many vaccines injected at SCHOOL...who the F knew what was in those pneumatic powered guns! We all just lined up and zip.

There some reasonable risk to take and probably a few vaccines you should get, but there's no room for forced vaccinations in my country.

Now if their intentions are sincere then offer all vaccines at NO COST! to everyone.


--Get a grip


Playgrounds! said...


I am wondering the same thing. Why did John Marshall get a new playground when the k-8 will only be there 2 years? Many children will have spent 5 years at Lincoln with no playground. We were told they wouldn't spend the money due to Lincoln being an interim location. Um.....BS!

Also, if there are other schools without playgrounds, I have only sympathy and we should rally together and demand EQUITY!!! What about equitable access to play equipment? :)

My comments here by no means imply Lincoln kids deserve a playground but other schools that don't have them do not deserve playgrounds.

How about we get a list going of K-5s or K-8s without playgrounds and RALLY for equality.

Lynn, We should do a public records request on the John Marshall playground. It's absolutely unfair to our kids. Again, I don't want it taken away from the JA K-8. They deserve it, but so do all the other young children in SPS without - it's especially bad given the very little PE we get. And, Lincoln PE had many classes that were NOT physical. They were learning about the body and nutrition. So lame.

Patrick said...

Boy, Michael, you're sure making a good case that the antivaccination crowd is not to be taken seriously.

Anonymous said...

Hey Patrick who said I was anti vaccination or in a crowd?

Are you stepping out of your APP bubble again?


Anonymous said...

The PE curriculum purposely includes health and nutrition because it's not taught as part of science. I'm okay with that and was glad my child also learned CPR as part of PE in middle school. As for the active part of really depends on the school and PE teacher. What I find troubling are elementary schools that regularly provide less than the required weekly average of 100 minutes.

WAC 392-410-135 Physical education

On another topic, here is an article that speaks to why I loathe the Readers and Writers Workshop model with its heavy emphasis on group work and its lack of meaningful content coverage. I thought Common Core would spell the end of it...but that doesn't seem to be the case here (or in NY). We see the same vapid assignments, but with CCSS verbiage attached. sigh.


Anonymous said...

Here is some conflicting information

Prevented 13 million deaths ? Impossible to reach that conclusion even using everyday math!

Funny I had the measles along with most of the kids in school.

I can't remember anyone dieing from it. I'm not saying it didn't happen just not to any of the 250 students in my school.

At least 9 measles cases in Washington, including 8 cases in south King County (members of one family) and another case in Pierce County (an infant who was exposed to members of the other family when they sought treatment in a local hospital), all linked to another person who had returned from the Pacific Islands in May. (2014)

Wow it's a ZOMBIE apocalypse!


Eric B said...

@Michael, I believe that all standard required vaccines (MMR being a prime example) are already free. If you get them at a pediatrician's office or pharmacy, the state reimburses it rather than the insurance company. One of the debates around making HPV a required vaccine was the cost to the state of funding that many more vaccinations. So the problem around measles isn't coming up with the cash to vaccinate everyone.

Measles is not to be taken lightly. While it kills fewer people than diarrhea from unsafe water, it still kills 120,000 people per year globally, mostly children under 5. That's after 85% of the world's children were vaccinated. 10% of measles cases are fatal for children with malnutrition or poor access to health care. Since that describes much of the urban poor in this country, I would think that would get your attention. Do 10% of the population die of bathtub-related injuries? (Source:

I suppose the counterargument is that WHO is fudging the stats on behalf of Big Pharma. Call me crazy, but I'd rather believe WHO than Some Dude on the internet.

ben said...

Why do parents keep pretending like there is no playground at Lincoln when its clearly there in the back? What you want is a new/larger one which is a different situation from other interim sites which had none (and often a K and developmental pre-K program as well to accomodate). You'll also find if you go down the equity path that there are lots of inadequate playgrounds on the various school sites.

Eric B said...

Sigh. Here's the math. 100 million children under 5 malnourished worldwide times 10% fatality rate for malnourished children = 10 million fatalities. since that's five years of data and measles doesn't recur, that's roughly 2 million per year. Times 60 years since invention of the vaccine, 120 million.


Anonymous said...

Oh no I just pop-ed your bubble

Measles Outbreak Traced to Fully Vaccinated Patient for First Time

BTW why would you vaccinate a person who already has the anti-bodies?

I guess when you are running a scare tacit campaign basing science is forgotten.


Anonymous said...

Remember that the John Marshall site is going to be used by multiple programs for the next 5-7 years, so the playground doesn't just benefit the K8 for two years. I believe that if the plan had been for APP to be at Lincoln for 5-7 years, they probably would have gotten more infrastructure up front.

Also, Marshall had a pot of money associated with it to get it ready to be an interim site, which I think made it easier to get a playground - whereas there wasn't a dedicated pot of money for Lincoln as an interim site, as far as I know. (There should have been, but I don't think there was.) This might explain why the initiative for more play equipment has had trouble gaining steam.

~ thinking

Lynn said...

Of course students at John Marshall should have a proper playground. That is a basic requirement for an elementary school. We need written standards for interim schools because we can't count on staff to make this a priority.

Sherry Carr had very complimentary comments about the condition of the renovated Marshall building at a school board meeting recently. It would be a good idea to arrange for her to tour Lincoln with the principal and the executive director for the region.

Anonymous said...

Agree with @Ben, when McDonald and QAE started at Lincoln in 2010 the District did indeed pay for and install a playground. Granted, it's tiny and not sufficient, but you can't say the District did nothing.
--Was there

Anonymous said...

And the Marshall playground is, from seeing it, pretty much for K-3 and about 1/3 the size of the one at the Jane Addams building. It isn't large, by any means.

- seenit

Lori said...

Ben, you do know that there was already a small play structure at John Marshall? It's in the northwest corner, at Ravenna and 68th. Yes, it's absolutely too small to support the incoming K-8, which is apparently why they added the new playground on the south side of the building.

The situations are actually fairly similar in that the pre-existing equipment at both schools is insufficient for the current populations. One got a new, bigger structure, and the other didn't.

The bottom line is that we need transparency. There should be a policy or stated goal for what type of minimal playground equipment is needed based on school size and configuration. That would help a lot to ensure equity.

Anonymous said...

Both of my kids attended Waldorf for K-8 so they have been around a lot of un-vaccinated kids. Other than whooping cough, I didn't see any huge outbreaks. My kids were vaccinated for many things but not chickenpox or HPV. The kids got chickenpox and were mildly sick. HPV, I am letting them decide when they are older.

Waldorf always let everyone know that if there was an outbreak, your unvaccinated kid would be asked to stay home. No one had any issues with that or with unvaccinated kids being around.

I have to say, that I have always wondered why the mumps vaccine. I had it as a child and it wasn't that bad. Mono was way worse and there is no vaccine for that. Mumps vaccines for adults makes sense but I never saw the point for kids.


mirmac1 said...

The last time SPS worked with the City on a school/program, the City walked away. That is the "Early Learning Center" at Old Van Asselt. SPS was left holding the bag.

How much you want to bet that the Chamber's Alliance will dangle a few bucks for "start-up" or "conceptual design", but will leave the rest to the taxpayers and the Capital Fund.

ben said...

@Lori - I didn't say anything directly about John Marshall one way or the other. Although as I recollect (and I could be wrong) the playsite on the North didn't have any permanent structures in it and what was there belonged to the private pre-school that was renting the space. Mostly, I think the fixation on John Marshall from a handful of Lincoln parents is not particularly helpful to their cause nor is exaggerating the situation. I'm completely sympathetic that the existing structure is not large enough for the Lincoln building especially given its growing size. And honestly that's the argument people should be making to the school board/staff.

Lynn said...

Q: Is mumps really a serious disease?
A: Almost all people with mumps fully recover after a few weeks. During the illness, many people feel tired and achy, have fever, and may have parotitis. Some may feel extremely ill and be unable to eat because of pain around the jaw, and some may develop serious complications. Men and adolescent boys can develop orchitis, which rarely results in sterility. Women and adolescents girls may develop oophoritis. Meningitis and loss of hearing can also occur, and in rare cases this hearing loss can be permanent. The most serious complication is encephalitis, which can lead to death or permanent disability, although rarely.

Eric B said...

Michael: It's called a booster shot (see: tetanus, whooping cough, etc.). It turns out that science has told us that booster shots may be necessary for measles. So now that the math works out, you're focusing on the ad hominem attacks? Claiming that anti-vaccine has science on its side while pro-vaccine has only scare tactics is some pretty wishful thinking.

Herd immunity helps a lot by preventing infections from becoming outbreaks. Of course, reducing the number of people vaccinated in the population reduces the herd immunity. See the charts in the middle of the page here:

One final point from that page: before vaccines, several hundred Americans per year died from measles (with a lower overall population). 15,000 Americans died from diptheria in one year before the vaccine. a rubella outbreak before the vaccine killed 2,000 babies and caused 11,000 miscarriages. Sure, you can say that the CDC is in the pocket of Big Pharma, but it's hard to dispute that you don't see these kinds of fatality rates anymore now that most people are vaccinated.

Anonymous said...

When I was a kid none of us wore seat belts. I sat on my dad's lap while he was driving and pretended to drive. It was fun! When I was a baby my mom held me on her lap in the front seat. There were 6 kids in our family and none of us died from not wearing seat belts. We didn't have air bags either! None of my friends' families used seat belts regularly, some not at all. And none of my friends died.

I don't make my kids wear seat belts, because I turned out fine. I think it's all a scam by the auto makers to charge you more for cars with seat belts and airbags!

Fight the man

Lynn said...

Can the district identify schools with low vaccination rates? I'd like to suggest we provide them with an enhanced science curriculum. Also - that would be good information to include on the enrollment page.

mirmac1 said...

And what are the chances this building downtown ends up like another JSCEE albatross?

The Fed building is just a...Squirrel...distraction that pulls us away from what must be done. I'm not sold on the "world-class" city crap. Seattle won't be if it can't house, feed and educate its children. A costly, flashy school downtown will be lipstick on a pig if other overburdened schools must do without maintenance and improvements.

Melissa Westbrook said...

Michael, do not drag your dislike for APP into this discussion. I will delete it, there's no reason for doing that.

Second, my siblings - especially one sister - all had polio. You do NOT know what it was like before vaccines and you don't want to know.

Meningitis? It can kill a child in 48 hours?

We can all have our own opinions but I believe that if you choose not to vaccinate your child, I do not agree with allowing that child at a public school. That's just me. We will lose the crowd ability to keep off major waves of disease if many more parents do not vaccinate their children.

The reason there no huge outbreaks? Most kids are vaccinated. Is it that hard to understand that?

Anonymous said...

Not that facts change the minds of people who believe Big Pharma is behind the need for vaccines, but here goes: I am 55 and my mother was exposed to rubella when she was pregnant with me. I was born with hearing loss, vision issues and a heart defect. You don't have to DIE to be affected by these diseases. My mother lost several friends to polio when she was a kid, and she was from a wealthy area. And chicken pox? I have two nieces whose cases were so bad they ended up hospitalized because they were in too much pain to eat or drink. And my great-grandmother died of the flu. These are real threats, people.

Pro Vaxer

Lynn said...


Wouldn't it be a good location for the World School? I wonder if the DSA would want to help with that? We could then reopen TT Minor as an elementary school.

Anonymous said...

Ha ha. Is it thought that the DSA is and has been trying so hard to get a school downtown, grotesquely massaging data, so that it could be home to the World School? A group of immigrant high school children? I am not do sure this is their vision. Cynical me, I though they wanted an amenity for the Vulcan developments, and the World School would not fit with that plan vision. Color me


Anonymous said...

I doubt anyone you or I know have known someone who died from measles, mumps or chicken pocks in the US.

I was told by my board certified doctor that most deaths are caused by secondary infections, so don't count those numbers.

My Mom had TB in 1937 I have never met another who has TB.

Do you really want to stop those diseases in the US? STOP importing them!

I'm under NO obligation to inject something into my body because the US refuses to stop people from bringing in the diseases. If they would do that first then I would consider it, but since I already have the naturally obtained anti-bodies there's no need.

Oh wait they claim it's "IN THE WILD" diseases we have to worry about, so even when there are no new cases you still need to go and get the "BOOSTER" shot wink wink at $180 plus and office visit.

PT was right, "one born every minute".


Anonymous said...

I had both chicken pox and mumps in first grade, and while I didn't die, I was very ill, and spent most of first grade either in the hospital or at home, in the care of my mother (a nurse). I remember the stacks of school work on my hospital bed table. It was not fun.

Fortunately, I didn't care at all for my first grade teacher, so I didn't miss her, but I did miss my friends.

My family was upper-middle class, I attended a small, private school, and we had health insurance. I can't imagine how difficult it would be for families under less fortunate circumstances.

- North-end Mom

Anonymous said...

Your logic is flawed since your are not requiring SPS employees to be vaccinated nor adult visitors from other countries and also since it's be confirmed vaccinated/booster-ed host can still contract the disease.

Think about that they next time you see a pregnant women at the school performance next to the other kids infected relative from Zimbabwe.

So don't throw down your self righteous flawed thinking as's not!


Go ahead and delete the APP post it was out of line.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Melissa Westbrook said...

It's chickenpox, not pocks.

Michael, you are getting very close to the line of not being allowed here. I don't like your tone about immigrant children.

The fact of the matter is since vaccines there are massively fewer outbreaks of disease. You can believe that vaccines are bad, your child, your call.

Mary Griffin said...


I hate to feed your anti vaccination rants, but seriously, you are out of range with your facts and even your opinions. First of all, I don't know why you are even mentioning TB. There are no vaccines for TB. Secondly, I have friends who have polio. Two of them had siblings who died. Your doctor who says everyone died of secondary infections? Of course! That's the perfect response. No one dies of HIV infections, either, they all die from secondary infections or cancer. So, please, don't fear AIDS, because no one really dies from it. Your board-certified doctor is playing off people's fear and ignorance, and frankly, if you are paying him $180 per visit for that advice, you should get a refund. The facts are that vaccinations save lives, vaccinations are available for children from birth to 19th birthday for free in the State of Washington through the Vaccines for Children Program (VFC). (5% of vaccine providers in the State are members of this program.

Anonymous said...

Do me favor and delete all of my post across the blog and block my access. I will get over it.

I was warned by others this is how you roll. "Immigrant children" really, very typical of your type to again play the racist card.

Maybe I should have used Iceland, no because they do not have a large infected population immigrating to the US.

You and your 4 other blog-etts can have it all to your selves.

Have a nice PC summer.


apparent said...

My little sister was born in 1961 after my mother contracted measles/rubella during her pregnancy. My sister was very beautiful and often today I still remember her lying in her crib even though I was only three years old then. She was born with a fatal heart defect which shortened her life to just three months. I vividly remember her loss and now I can only imagine how devastating this must have been to my brave parents.

Michael, your vituperative comments do seem to show a disturbing lack of concern for children and their families who have been hurt by measles infections, as well as for all those who could be in the future without vaccinations.

Patrick said...

Michael, the APP comment would have been rude if it was correct, but was actually completely barking up the wrong tree. My child is not and never has been in APP. Not even tested.

The reason relatively few people die of preventable diseases in the U.S. now is that (surprise) most people in the U.S. are vaccinated, so the diseases don't spread easily. Sealing the borders against diseases is completely impractical. It would require an in-depth exam of every person crossing the border, and even so it would fail because people don't show symptoms immediately after getting diseases. Diseases are still in the U.S., and building a wall won't keep them out. Diseases can be dormant or in animal populations. They will come back if our herd immunity drops by too many people skipping vaccinations.

Yes, there have been immunized people who still get diseases that they should have been immunized against. It's rare, but it can happen. Maybe it's a bad dose, maybe the booster requirement is not as frequent as it should be, maybe the disease has a new stronger strain. But with herd immunity, if a few percentage of a population hasn't been immunized, there are still too few vulnerable people for the disease to spread easily. The existence of flaws in the immunization is actually a strong argument for immunizing as many people as possible, so that the general immunization rate is still high.

There's still bubonic plague in the southwest U.S. wild rodent population, too.

RosieReader said...

For many years schools that can do so have raised the money for their own playground improvements. Maybe that's less than ideal, but we live in a less than ideal world where the legislature still fails to fully fund education. From my perspective, if the District has any money for playgrounds, I would prefer they spend it at schools that don't have parent bodies that can raise the $50-$100,000 needed.

The upside of this approach is that it allows for creativity in deciding just what would work best at a particular school. E.G. a couple of years ago Salmon Bay needed new equipment for its youngest kids to utilize, and since they were raising the money themselves they were able to design and implement a playground that has many features that are particularly great for kids on the autism spectrum.

A few years before that they raised money for a non-standard-sized playfield, something I can't imagine the District ever doing. Both have been hugely successful additions to the school..

Anonymous said...

One crazy piece related to SPS and playground. Apparently if a PTA initially funds a playground then many years later when equipment needs to be replaced, it's up to the parents to fund it. Whereas if SPS pays for and installs, then many years later SPS pays for replacements. So, once a parent group contributes toward a playground, SPS will not take responsibility for it. Seems like a deterrent for parents to want to support an improvement.

TechyMom said...

The district needs more buildings. Would it be possible to buy land in the north end and a build a new school for $40 million? I'm guessing not. If that's the case, a centrally located building that can be used to relieve pressure elsewhere in the system is a worthwhile expenditure. An option k-8 would make more sense than an attendance k-5.

Anonymous said...

My great aunt had rubella while pregnant. Her daughter lived 43 years in the living room because my aunt wouldn't institutionalize her. I'm in my early forties, but I remember my cousin very well.

She never said 'mama', never ate solid food, never lifted a hand to wave, never smiled. She wore diapers and sat on the floor rocking for 43 years. Nothing else. Ever. My great aunt and her husband alternated weeks to go to church. In forty-three years, they never took a vacation together - just an occasional day trip when another great aunt watched their daughter. Never went to a family wedding together.

My great aunt's daughter is gone now - and so is my great aunt - but I wish every single freaking anti-vaxxer in the whole country could have met my cousin and eaten my great aunt's cookies. She was a great baker, because for more than 40 years she was never farther from her daughter than the kitchen.

My cousin never tasted her mother's cookies.

Because of a preventable disease.

You want that? You want to give the gift of rubella to a pregnant woman? You do not have the right.

You think these diseases aren't so serious?

You do not have the right in your (I"m not allowed to use names here) science-denying myopia to give that disease, or any disease, to the lady next to you in the supermarket. You do not.

Do you WANT your unvaccinated daughter to give you a grandchild someday? Or do you think you'll just roll the dice on rubella and preventable cervical cancer and measles scars and all the rest?

Vaccinate. It's not just your kid. My great aunt and her daughter didn't have the choice.

Signed: math counts

Melissa Westbrook said...


"Think about that they next time you see a pregnant women at the school performance next to the other kids infected relative from Zimbabwe."

That's why I perceived you don't like immigrants. I did not say you are racist.

We have never "blocked" anyone; just moderated.

But maybe you are right. This is probably not the blog for you to read and make comments.

Anonymous said...

Well, I guess I retract what I said earlier. Reading Michael's comments is making me think that staying inside for the next several months is desirable after all.

-New Mom

mirmac1 said...

I would lay bets you could regain an existing school (maybe 1-1/2) and remodel it for $40M. (Mann is at $16M remodel cost right now.)

I can't help but think of the reasoning and cost behind the JSCEE acquisition. Now many of us rue the cost (although I wasn't really attuned to Cap. projects at that time...). But, boy, I'll guess it seemed a bargain! How does it look now?

Granted the whole thing with NWC was unfortunate (some would say tragic), but in my mind they are bound by the lease no less than any other tenant. Hey, that's my line of work. I think they realized this, that is why they went political immediately Nice card if you have it. Where do we draw the line? Contract language (like statutes) is what it is, otherwise why did you sign it? If your case is strong enough to go to court, then please do it. (BTW, I thought the whole politicking behind their appeal was disingenuous and manipulative; Hate me because I believe in laws and court precedence.)

There are alternatives to another albatross.

mirmac1 said...

Pardon. I mean regain a(n) abandoned/surrendered school...

Anonymous said...

Ben, what you are seeing if people's response to staff's response, which is/was- "Lincoln is an interim location, and so we will not be upgrading the playground structures." The natural response is, "but that was not true for X," and X just happens to be a school you love. No one in saying year down their playground. We are saying give one to Lincoln too, for the two programs there.

I have spent lots of time at John Marshall and in the original playground over the last several years waiting for a choir rehearsal to get out. The structures are as non removable as Lincoln's. It is shorter but wider. I know you don't like when Lincoln parents say anything about Hazel Wolf, but it is an exact analogy. Even, at this point, down to the number of students who would be using each structure!

On a more general note, I certainly do not believe parent should be required to purchase their own playground equipment. We should fund extra support at schools which don't have the parent support to fund it(I think especially in the area of after school enrichment, but obviously other areas too) but that absolutely does not include a playground. That is basic. And also a capital expense, not operating- just not a parent group's job, and to the extent it happens already, is malfeasance on the part of the district.


Anonymous said...

Saints alive, I agree with mirmac. Contracts and provisions skates dangerously close to my line of work, too, and I was not a fan of NWC's tactics. I think it was Charlie who said- everyone currently using our school buildings is going to be doing good work for good people. That doesn't mean we don't need them back now, to be schools. Leases are temporary things.

I can't think of a building we could regain as easily as we can remodel this space. Maybe he Ravenna Eckstein community center, though I doubt anyone wants to sell it, and I think a similar sized property half a mile a way went for a prettier penny than we have. Not positive. I still like the option high school downtown- civics, social justice, in partnership with the courts and many social justice orgs down there?


Patrick said...

Please note that it is not the Hazel Wolf community's fault that the District hasn't provided a playground for every school where there are K-5 students. I hope Lincoln will get their playground, rather than wish for Wolf to not have theirs.

Anonymous said...

I think we all have said exactly that in this thread already, Patrick. I think I said it about 4 lines above your comment.

I think you are seeing some irritation that the k-8 did not have to go through the initial step of several years of "no, it's just an interim location, and that is final," and was allowed a yes in a timely manner after reasonable advocating like the rest of us might like for our own needs, but that is directed at the district for playing favorites(or dis favorites depending on your point of view) not at a school for advocating for what they need. Unfortunately I do think it's worth daylighting when the district appears to be playing favorites and in doing so not offering basic needs to little kids. It would have been ridiculous if they'd said no to Hazel Wolf, right? 900 kids need to learn and play there, and that playground was way too small. Same with Lincoln. The Lincoln building community is just trying to do the same as Hazel Wolf, for the app program and for Licton Springs k-8.


Anonymous said...

Here is the wiki list of historic SPS properties

The Fairview school is quite a nice property though displacing a private school through eminent domain may not be ideal.

Ann D

mirmac1 said...

Ann D, is condemnation for the public good ever presented as ideal? But isn't it true in this case? And can't the well-informed majority in this city (and I don't mean the bigoted Times readers) tell the difference? If not, then Mayor Burgess and Director Dale-Estey it is.

P.S. BTW, I know you are better-informed than most.

mirmac1 said...

Having taken property for "the greater good", I know there are very valid reasons for these laws. If it were up to me, it would've started two years ago minimum.

Anonymous said...

Any better reason?


Anonymous said...

Yes, of course vaccines work, the question is, by how much? Efficacy is like measuring teachers, not an easy thing with many variables at hand.

So, like testing, there will never be enough required vaccines or boosters. Wait ten years, it will be double or triple.

Polio is not Chickenpox. I'm not buying everything out of the medical establishment. They are as self assured as the CCSS promoters, when in fact, everything is not as cut and dry as they would have you believe.


Lynn said...

I wouldn't sign my name to that either

Melissa Westbrook said...

How much do vaccines work? Enough to (nearly) end polio. That's how well they work.

As for polio is not chickenpox, from the CDC:

Some people with serious complications from chickenpox can become so sick that they need to be hospitalized. Chickenpox can also cause death.

"Some deaths from chickenpox continue to occur in healthy, unvaccinated children and adults. Many of the healthy adults who died from chickenpox contracted the disease from their unvaccinated children."

Adult men who contract chickenpox tend to be more severely affected than women.

I will note that in the UK a chickenpox vaccine is not required.

All of life is taking chances. Parents make these decisions for their children and that's fine. But when it affects other people's children, then it becomes a societal issue.

Gads said...

Best not to engage Michael.

Gads said...

Melissa states:

"Michael, you are getting very close to the line of not being allowed here. I don't like your tone about immigrant children"

I wouldn't blame Melissa.

NW parent said...

It's fine if you don't want to vaccinate your children. But then you should homeschool them.

Patrick said...

Noname, before vaccinations around 20% of all children born healthy died before age 5 due to childhood diseases. That almost none die young of those diseases now in developed countries is thanks to vaccinations, either directly to the children or to over 90% of the whole population given the population herd immunity. Immunization is among the best things a doctor can do for a patient, giving in almost all cases life that's not only longer but much better as well. It's pathetic that some people deny them completely based on quibbling about whether they're 92% effective or 95%, or whether they confer immunity for life or only for 12 years.

Prevention Counts said...

Encephalitis can be deadly. As a medical professional, I"ve seen the result of encephalitis related to chickenpox. Chickenpox left one particular individual in a wheelchair for life- contracted an unable to speak.

Hard to believe people still have chickenpox parties and won't vaccinate their children.

There was one particular comment related to TB. This individual saw ONE case of TB. It should be noted that drug resistant TB is on the rise.

Anonymous said...

Before ANY immigrants are allowed into US territories, they have to get a full check up and tested for EVERY communicable disease. Those who test positive for ANY of these diseases are DENIED entry. The ones who have tested negative for everything, are then immunized for ALL of the diseases that we vacinate kids for in this country. If they refuse any of the shots, then they DO NOT enter the US. For this purpose, US territories and protectorates: Guam, Samoa, Puerto Rico etc, ALSO require the negative results and the vaccines.

So next time you go to a crowded area, the safest people to sit next to are those immigrants from Zimbabwe and wherever that you are maligning. Immigrants are the only ones you can be sure are fully vaccinated.

JSIS' and Adams' PTSAs paid for their playground improvements and play structures. MacDonald's was paid for by Friends of MacDonald Elementary.


Anonymous said...

Perhaps Michael is actually a John Huppenthal sock puppet....

Racism pops up all over.

And yes, vaccinations matter. I've seen some medically fragile special needs kids get deathly ill because they CANNOT get vaccinated, yet end up exposed thanks to some ignorant ant-vaxxer's kids. What about the needs and rights of those kids NOT to be exposed to someone/something that may kill them?


Anonymous said...

Anti-vaccers, delayed vaccers, selective vaccers are not ignorant. Many are more informed than your average vaccers. All children should be allowed to attend public school whether vacced or not, but they should stay home if there is an outbreak of something they were not vacced for.

I am getting really tired of the pro-vax crowd vilifying anyone who doesn't agree with them. You decide what is right for your child. I will decide what is right for mine.


mirmac1 said...

I give every decision to vax my child very serious thought. My daughter has ASD.

Melissa Westbrook said...

HP, no one is being vilified and I didn't see anyone say you can't decide for your child.

I think what is being said is the research and data do not support not vaccination kids.

I also think that parents worry about kids who are not vaccinated at schools. That's a valid concern.

Vexed by anti-vax said...

Anti-vaxxers may not be ignorant, but they sure are hypocritical. Herd immunity exists because most of us vaccinate our children. You're welcome. Vaccinations should be required to attend public school, period. Start your own school if you don't want to prevent spreading disease.

Just Saying said...

Tennessee, CC and PARC

Awaiting swk....5..4...3...2...1...

mirmac1 said...


Is test-prep teaching? It takes up 18 percent of school time

Anonymous said...

How do you define test prep? I ask because teaching the standards is prepping students for the test, but it's also instruction. The state tests as they are currently written align quite well with the standards (who knows what CCSS tests will bring).

We homeschooled our child for a short time and used the state standards as a guide for what topics to cover in math. The WA state standards were very clearly written for math and it made it pretty straightforward in terms of what to cover. Each standard also had some accompanying sample problems, which we used for practice.

Our child did very well on the state tests. Was this test prep, or simply covering the standards? Looking at the new CCSS for math, it's not as straightforward. I will miss WA state's old math standards. If the new standards seem more convoluted to a parent, I'd imagine some teachers might be experiencing the same.


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