Tuesday Open Thread
Update: Congrats to Chief Sealth (via the West Seattle blog);
For the third consecutive year, the Academy of Business, which includes both the Academy of Finance and Academy of Hospitality & Tourism programs, was awarded “Model Status” by the National Academy Foundation, an award given to only a select number of business academies across the country.
There are only five NAF academies in the entire state of Washington, with two of those located here at Chief Sealth Int’l. Over the past five years, the graduation rate for the Academy of Business has exceeded 99% and over 95% of those that graduate have gone on to college or post-secondary education.
I attended the bell times meeting at JAMS last night; thread to come. Apparently it was the largest crowd yet (about 70 people). I think the district has a plan and it's working.
Speaking of getting to school, The Atlantic had this article, Why Japanese Kids Can Walk to School Alone.
Even in big cities like Tokyo, small children take the subway and run errands by themselves. The reason has a lot to do with group dynamics.
A popular television show called Hajimete no Otsukai, or My First Errand, features children as young as two or three being sent out to do a task for their family. As they tentatively make their way to the greengrocer or bakery, their progress is secretly filmed by a camera crew. The show has been running for more than 25 years.
And before you say that Japan is "different" from the U.S., yes, I'm aware of that. But sending kids to school is a world-wide event and many kids take public transportation - alone - to get there.
Speaking of, tomorrow, Wednesday, Oct. 7th is national WalkBike to School Day.
A high-school senior in the Highline School District died on Monday after sustaining an injury playing football. I'm going to have a thread on this issue as more districts across the nation are rethinking high school football.
What's on your mind?
For the third consecutive year, the Academy of Business, which includes both the Academy of Finance and Academy of Hospitality & Tourism programs, was awarded “Model Status” by the National Academy Foundation, an award given to only a select number of business academies across the country.
There are only five NAF academies in the entire state of Washington, with two of those located here at Chief Sealth Int’l. Over the past five years, the graduation rate for the Academy of Business has exceeded 99% and over 95% of those that graduate have gone on to college or post-secondary education.
I attended the bell times meeting at JAMS last night; thread to come. Apparently it was the largest crowd yet (about 70 people). I think the district has a plan and it's working.
Speaking of getting to school, The Atlantic had this article, Why Japanese Kids Can Walk to School Alone.
Even in big cities like Tokyo, small children take the subway and run errands by themselves. The reason has a lot to do with group dynamics.
A popular television show called Hajimete no Otsukai, or My First Errand, features children as young as two or three being sent out to do a task for their family. As they tentatively make their way to the greengrocer or bakery, their progress is secretly filmed by a camera crew. The show has been running for more than 25 years.
And before you say that Japan is "different" from the U.S., yes, I'm aware of that. But sending kids to school is a world-wide event and many kids take public transportation - alone - to get there.
Speaking of, tomorrow, Wednesday, Oct. 7th is national WalkBike to School Day.
A high-school senior in the Highline School District died on Monday after sustaining an injury playing football. I'm going to have a thread on this issue as more districts across the nation are rethinking high school football.
What's on your mind?
Comments
Thanks,
Steve
H
I was at that meeting last night. I wondered if I saw many of you there. I had intended to speak, but then a woman at the next table over started shouting down the sleep expert and questioning if she was a real academic, and it no longer seemed to be a serious discussion. During all the growth boundaries discussions Pegi did this same thing- listened to people vent, validated their concerns, and then left and the district did what they wanted anyway. For once I want what the district is proposing, so I hope they stick to their MO.
But the way they have been soliciting feedback- "would it be convenient for you, elementary parent with no current benefits in this plan, to maybe or maybe not move your schedule around?" of course they are getting wild pushback. Especially from people with no institutional knowledge about how these differing schedules often work, and have in SPS just in the last decade. The benefits are so profound, and none of these problems people are worried about actually happen when we have these schedules. But SPS is sneaky.
-sleeper
http://www.npr.org/2015/09/21/442183080/assessing-the-100-million-upheaval-of-newarks-public-schools
FreshAirFan
Very hard to have this two years in a row, especially as there is real momentum at our school that started last year. And, there are schools adjacent to us that are fighting for portable space to house (some of the kids from B.F. Day's enrollment area go to that particular school). I don't know the details behind all of this, but we have classroom space in a district that is packed to the rafters. Removing a classroom from our school does not help.
- Steve
sleeper said, "During all the growth boundaries discussions Pegi did this same thing- listened to people vent, validated their concerns, and then left and the district did what they wanted anyway. For once I want what the district is proposing, so I hope they stick to their MO." Yes, that seems to be the district MO, but if the district does what they want, doesn't that mean "no change?"
-another voice
(over 10 years in SPS)
But thanks for your response. I was thinking there would be some healthy back and forth, and I don't really mean that no one with experience in the district would ever oppose the plan. Just the the bulk of the opposition I am actually hearing is from people who were saying terrible things will happen from a start time, which we happened to have 5 years ago(or other schools currently have) without all those terrible things. And early elementary parents are so often the loudest. The middle school parents in the room overall favored the switch (though not unanimously).
But yes, I think the district does not really want to do this. Community initiatives don't usually get this far, so I guess we will see what happens at this point. I am still hopeful, but very discouraged by the process.
-sleeper
-sleeper
I think that is where people disagree. Has the district actually polled middle school students on the proposed change (and phrased the question, "Would you agree or disagree with a start time of 9:40 and a release time of 4:10? My 8th grader found it almost laughable that they'd move to 9:40. Sleeping in sounded great, but the late release sounded like torture.
-another voice
HF
Especially with adding another 20 minutes coming soon and with no idea of high school assignments due to lack of space I'd be happier to leave the schedule alone right now.
Also, I despise SPS transportation and their lack of visibility into whether other solutions are possible. They are making the issue difficult for all sides of the argument.
One parent
6yrs experience
What I don't understand is why this change has to be cost-neutral. Many other initiatives that are expected to improve academic performance are not cost-neutral: the moratorium on out of school suspension for elementary students, MTSS implementation, use of the Amplify-Beacon interim tests, the Seattle Teacher Residency program.
The upcoming "refresh" of district and school websites won't be cost-neutral. http://sps.ss8.sharpschool.com/UserFiles/Servers/Server_543/File/District/Departments/procurement/RFP09502_Web%20Refresh_9.18.15.pdf
We should know how much a two-tier system would actually cost in year one - and how much the state contribution would increase in year two.
I have very fully thought through the potential opposition. EC participation is not impacted to nearly the level you believe it will be(or at all) in places that already have the healthy start times (MN is a great example). When schedules are different, providers adjust their schedules. And it is just true that the majority of people at the meeting last night who opposed the plan had 2nd and 3rd graders. I know a lot of them.
Plus the complaints from last night were not the complaints you have- they were around the impossibility of being an elementary on the third tier (which many schools are now without those problems, at least the ones they are bringing up), and requests for two tiers (which I believe is not an option for next year). A few people spoke up saying they wanted to see how jazz band and sports practices would be arranged first (I don't think that is reasonable, and again I believe even in the worst case scenario- morning practices- at least then students can choose whether they want to participate, rather than being forced to live an unhealthy and in some cases dangerous schedule), some people were vitriolic about some weird things, some people spoke about equity (very reasonable question, IMO), and some people spoke for the plan and implored the room to consider the health of teenagers. No one said anything about decreased extracurricular activity. Oh, and one woman said her middle school child stays up until 11 doing homework with a 2 pm let out, and 4 pm would mean 1 am. I am worried about a child doing 9 hours of homework and don't think start times are the problem there.
If we are going to please stop things, please stop implying that logistical challenges which other areas of the country have solved completely are in any way equivalent to life saving benefits of healthy teenaged sleep.
-sleeper
-sleeper
Curious
I know the risks to teens are huge and scary. But starting down the path of school as a sleep deprived elementary student is going to impact outcomes down the road too.
Two-tiers only
This just isn't a workable solution.
6yrs experience
-sleeper
Two-tiers only
You are arguing against yourself. Elementary school age children need 9-11 hours. If your fifth grader really does need 11 hours, what's your plan for sixth grade with a 7:50 start time? This is the time when circadian rythms change for kids. To be up at 7:00, your child will need to be asleep at 8:00 next year - that is not going to happen. The organizational demands of middle school are best met by a child who is not exhausted.
https://sleepfoundation.org/sites/default/files/STREPchanges_1.png
-sleeper
Sleeper, you are dead wrong on that point. Elementary practices can and do run as late as 9. Currently. This will compound the problem. You have a nice view of the world, but it's just one view. Agree that other views and concerns are valid. With experience in juggling HS, MS and K5 kid academics and extras, I do not want this change. The negatives outweigh the benefits.
K-12 mom
Two tiers
As far as rec sports leagues going to 9pm and elementary students needing 11 hours of sleep, that puts start times at ~10am. I don't see anyone asking for later start times for their elementary students. I'm also not really sure why we're making a decision on start times for all students based on the apparently inflexible schedule of a relatively small number of students in unspecified recreational sports. It's bad enough when the school-sponsored sports make decisions for the rest of the schools, now rec sports do too?
Please explain: "the number we bus now is a relic of the choice plan; many districts just don't offer this level of transportation"
Grandfathered transportation for out-of-attendance area students was cut a several years ago.
- North-end Mom
-need sleep
For those of you reading this thread, please use this point in writing to SPS for advocating AGAINST this move. It resonates with the district. More voices are a counter to the well organized sleep-in contingent.
NO MOVE
But offering free bussing to middle school students, for example, is not a given in many districts, whether you are in a walk zone or not. Or option schools. Pegi said last night only one high school does not have yellow bus(non SPED) service. And it is bus costs that are driving the three tiers. If those went down, two tiers could also be cost neutral.
-sleeper
And that's before they also don't get to take music, art, STEM.
This emperor of SLEEP LATE doesn't have no clothes, but he has a lot less than the sleep late contingent want known.
NO MOVE
-need sleep
Perhaps what we can agree on is that the district was remiss in not doing an analysis of moving back to two tiers. The conversation would be much different if we had real numbers to discuss.
-another voice
They also officially "open" the school to kids at 7am to accommodate the early practices, as well as parents who need to drop their kids off early before work. They're allowed to hang out in the cafeteria for those 2 hrs. That would be awesome, but no chance would SPS do it!
Can you please direct me to the legal requirements around civil twilight? If 4:10 is truly the latest we'll ever be looking at, that's one thing. But 4:30? Please no.
HF
I thought the only high schoolers who got bus service were ones that had no metro service? Why aren't we teaming up with metro to put in bus routes in those areas? I can't believe the kids would be the only ones to benefit from it. The only ones riding school buses should be the SPED kids who need bus service.
HP
I respect the need to match a more natural rhythm, but there is a "too late" start time. Anything that is after 9:00 (8:30, really) creates a possible attendance issue for kids who aren't self starters in the morning. If it is my duty as a parent to make sure my children get up and get to school, then it has to be possible for me to do so without losing my job, too. She will get up and be somewhere "supervised" before I have to be at work by 8:00.
The desired benefits will be nullified by the requirements of the adult world outside of the school district. Business hours are business hours. Kids who need supervision will need supervision, mornings or afternoons.
-SystemsThinking
Do you think it a good idea to change bell times when, in 2017-2018, there will be 20 minutes more to the school day? (This is per the new CBA.) Will that have an impact again on bell times (and thus, perhaps causing yet another adjustment to those times)?
Would it be better to table the discussion and/or continue working with the idea that we need to consider that 20-minute change NOW and not wait until it comes?
Why can't we just bus kids in Sped?
Elementary school buses in my area run so empty I believe hiring an Uber driver would be cheaper!
Just ditch busing and put a reasonable start and dismissal time for all grades.
-Tired
I can't imagine tacking on another 20 minutes to the proposed Tier 3 start/dismissal times, so I agree that, if SPS isn't willing to go with a two-tiered system for next year (which would be much more adaptable to the extended school day the following year), then there is no point in continuing any discussion of the current proposal. There is too much disruption in the bell time changes, and the communities that typically have the least capacity for engagement (low-income/high ELL) will be seriously impacted.
- North-end Mom
Absolutely. That has to be a factor in any decisions being made now, otherwise it's unfair to families who don't realize the consequences of this initial chance. The 24-credit requirement should also play into this decision, if there's a chance the HS day will be restructured. I realize this is SPS, but we need to be planning more than one year ahead at a time.
HF
If so, there was a lot of pressure for the board to accept funding, and in return, allow the superintendent to enter into a Partnership Agreement with the city that wasn't fully vetted. The district inserted city documents into the city/district prek Partnership Agreement and district's attorney told the board that he didn't have time to conduct a line to line analysis of the Partnership agreement. Additionally, the Executive Committee (Peaslee, Carr, McLaren) did not put prek/ city over-arching policies in place.
NO MOVE
So wait, Enrichment activities that have to begin after 5:00 PM because the volunteers who run them are at work are keeping K-8 kids in school? I'm not following your logic. (Especially since it's pretty hard for a ten year old to drop out of school.) I'm with the other posters who are saying ANY sort of sport/non academic activity should not be driving start times. Science, yes. Equity issues, probably. Safety, ok. The realities of adult work schedules, sure (but none of the school schedules take those into account NOW.)
Why are people always so willing to have the perfect be the enemy of the better? And why do people find it so difficult to think about the whole 13 or more year range of experience they will have in a school system when they are advocating for their child? (Let alone the impact on kids who aren't their own.)
Just because this proposal seems a no brainer for your family or for high school kids you know doesn't mean others have the same view for their communities.
"pushback"
Your math doesn't add up either. Right now, your student is getting off practice at 9:00. You want them to be home, showered, and in bed in time for 11 hours of sleep and still get up in time for school that starts by 9:30 am? Unless your kid has a Time Turner, it ain't happening now, but you want every other person in the District to have their schedule driven by your kid needing 11 hours of sleep when they aren't even getting that now because of the recreational activity schedule you chose!
Yes, the advocates of later start times for secondary students have been hitting the Board and staff for two years. We were asking for a rational two tier system, doing the analysis that showed it was possible at negligible cost. Where were you?
Chiming in
re new SPP preschools: You are likely correct, or I should say one of them had (confirmed) 6 kids attending for the past 2 weeks, and I would guess the other was not far off. There was to be a sudden influx of more students, but didn't yet happen.
been there
My take is that the City did not get any middle class families. They do not want entire classrooms of low-income students because the outcomes are generally not as good. I think they held out as long as they could and now will have to move those waitlists. As a taxpayer, I don't like paying for a full-time teacher and teaching aide for 4 students in a classroom. That was not what we were promised. (Of course, we were promised more students in preschool but that's not the truth either. Someone really should call Tim Burgess out on this.)
On K-8s. There's a discussion that needs to happen. I think there are some real issues there that have not been discussed and that may be part of the transportation puzzle.
That they aren't thinking comprehensively? Yes, this is what I mean.
Pushback, If everyone who is pushing back against this went through a fact-based mental exercise of thinking of their family's needs over the entire K-12 school experience then I think there would be less push back. I think this is true even for poor families. I think that people are throwing up straw man arguments (see Eric B's points) because they choose not to think comprehensively. I think that if this change goes through then in five years, families would be screaming bloody murder if the District threatened to go back to the way it is now.
The exception may be for people who truly believe that athletics are more important than academics. And you know what? I don't care what those people think. SPS is a school district, not an athletic league. Peak mentally functioning hours should be for school, not sports.
The district invested hundreds of administrative hours in the city's prek program, and it took a lot of the board's time and energy for a very small amount of children...not to mention quite a dog/pony show at one of the board meetings.
The 3 tier transportation system should not be driving this process.
The disagreements here are not so much the flipping of times per se - its the fact that 3 tiers mean most times are either unreasonably early and unreasonably late. We are all fighting over which population should be saddled with most unreasonable time (they early one). The early times are too early for any aged population (elementary or high school). If the district could move to a 2 tier system, I think much of the opposition from elementary parents concerned about early start times with a flip would vanish (perhaps thats not what the district wants though).
The convenience of families (working and otherwise) while should not be a factor.
It is not currently a factor. For instance - how convenient is a 9.30am elementary start time for families who mostly need to start work much earlier? Not very. Before school care helps but it is difficult for some.
How convenient is any elementary school end time before say 5pm for working families that don't likely finish work before that time? After school care helps with this issue.
How convenient is 11-12 weeks of summer break? It's made manageable with a hodgepodge of camps, babysitters, grandparents etc.
The point is, the school district does not exist to provide convenient child care during working hours - it raison d'etre is to educate our kids and this should be done within the hours that are most reasonable to ensure the academic success and wellbeing of the majority of kids, based on the information (research evidence) that we now have.
Likewise, sports and extracurricular activities should also not a consideration.
I don't believe they currently are so why should they now be taken into account. These are optional activities and we should not arrange a legally mandated requirement for all kids (school) around activities that only some chose, or are able to participate in (And everyone wants their kids particular activity/practice time to take precedence in setting the time it seems). It won't be the end of the world. Sports practices and extracurricular activities will still continue, they will just need to fit in with the new schedule. Calm down. Youth soccer will not stop being played in Seattle because of it.
Everyone picks selective arguments based on their own situation.
I just don't get these people who are complaining about their elementary kids being out at soccer practice til 9pm at night and how bad for sleep it will be it they start school earlier. Have you ever thought it's probably not that great even with the late start time. Lots of families would not choose (choice, being the operative word) to have such a demanding schedule for a young kid - yet you CHOOSE to do that. Families cannot CHOOSE their school start and end time - no matter how difficult some may find these times to be for particular child or personal circumstances. School comes first. Then you can CHOOSE to try to fit in activities around that and figure out how to do that, or choose not to. Your choice to have your kid play select soccer or whatever should have no bearing on any other kids school start time.
Finally, Mercer Island and Bellevue School districts are also currently analysing start times (they are similarly early) and expect to make change for the next year. Moving to later start times is going to be move on the right side of history.
timing is everything
Everyone with elementary kids complaining about the flipped times - I get it. It will impact me too, in fact it will be a huge struggle. Thats why i hope we can somehow lobby for a 2 tier system. But we need to look at the big picture. Our kids are not going to be in elementary school forever, Maybe by the time our kids are sleep deprived middle or high schoolers we might be calling on the district to listen to research and do what is biologically appropriate and make later start times? If we don't suck up the ridiculously early start in elementary school, we will be hit with it a few years down the track - where arguably the stakes are higher. We may not benefit from a change now but our children WILL benefit in the future. That is why this elementary parent supports the change. Though, I would argue it would be better to make any changes concurrently with the lengthening of the school day, taking this into account.
Big Picture
"Here at Jane Addams Middle School we have experienced lower 8th grade enrollment than projected, which has lead the district to reduce our budget by 2.0 certificated staff with an additional .4 reduction in certificated Special Education staff.
We have an immediate plan to reduce sections of Social Studies, Special Education and Science as well as to shift funding from a variety of areas. We may have the opportunity to delay these changes until the semester. However, if Jane Addams is required to reduce the entire 2.0 FTE, at the semester we will need to make reductions in the above areas as well as in music, world language, and in math. Many student schedule changes will need to occur."
Unbelievable. JAMS opened last year - this is the second year of operations. Virtually all of the 8th graders were relocated from Eckstein or Hamilton and have already experienced enough disruption of their middle school years. You would think that the district would cut some slack in this situation.
How can the district be off by so much?!
Jaded Jaguar
Hint: Next time take time to include the actual community. Maybe it will go a little better.
DistrictWatacher
North Seattle
http://www.seattletimes.com/education-lab/enrollment-in-seattles-top-scoring-elementary-and-middle-schools-skews-white/?utm_content=buffer3bf3f&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=owned_buffer
- Seekr
Test Scores Under Common Core Show That ‘Proficient’ Varies by State
It include this:
Some teachers see the state’s presentation as misleading. “They shot themselves in the foot by putting it that way,” Kathryne Roston, a fourth-grade teacher at West Broad Elementary School here, said upon seeing how Ohio categorized the test results. “If you look up ‘proficient’ in the dictionary, what does that mean? Does it mean what they are making it mean?” .......
Fewer than half of the 40 states that adopted CCSS originally are using tests from either of the testing consortia that develop the exams, making it difficult to equate results from different states.
“It may be a little too premature to declare it a failure,” said James A. Peyser, the secretary of education in Massachusetts, where the State Board of Education will vote in November on whether to use the PARCC tests, “but for sure it’s in retreat.”
More confusion is to come.
In WA State the State Board of Education already revised the cut score to below the proficient level in regard to graduation.
On August 5, the State Board of Education lowered the cut score on the SBAC testing for passing to below the “standard score for proficient”. Then explained that this was done to ease the transition for our system and demonstrate fairness to students. This statement was needed to maintain the dual illusions of fairness and quality in this unfair one-diploma system.
================
Randy Dorn originally stated back in 2010 that SBAC testing would save WA State money. I wonder how much this debacle is costing WA State? Hey it is better than WASL but not as good as MSP for math.... Cheaper than either??? Who knows?
-- Dan Dempsey
Seattle schools have one of nation’s largest equity gaps, new study says
Seattle ranked near the bottom of a 50-city study on several measures of equity examining who was more likely to attend the highest and lowest performing schools.
on Sept 30 the Board held a work session on "Closing the Opportunity Gap" and staff presented a 42 page .pdf of slides that contained NO DATA.
Here is the missing data in regard to grades 3-8 math:
Are Seattle Schools closing the Math "Opportunity Gap"? or just failing to report the data?
-- Dan Dempsey
Thanks Central! We've entered a new era of hodgepodge worksheets and MIF has been sidelined. An enormous textbook adoption set aside in Year Two. Just what you wanted all along. I guessed this would happen, just not so quickly or blatantly. In the name of "equity" ya know. Which is pure baloney.
Didn't McLaren and Peaslee and Peters and Patu all push for MIF? Are they blind or are they choosing to drop the ball?
MIFfed
1. Garfield may max out of capacity next year and there are some early meetings going on at JSIS about this. Note: none of the decision making on pathways etc. is controlled by advanced learning.
Also from that blog, no plans for Spectrum beyond a name change.
Downtown's really stepping up on improving outcomes for ALL within SPS!
AL parent
The administration has a terrible record on effective math. They need to use MIF in elementary and expand better math to middle and high schools.
I have a great deal of confidence in Rick Burke. He will do what he can to strengthen math but he needs support.
S parent
No fuzzy nuances to contemplate on this one.
Recently from Director McLaren as sent via email:
Our Board has hired SPS’s best Superintendent in almost 20 years. I agree with him on many of his initiatives, and our students, teachers and parents are seeing the gains that come from stable, forward-focused leadership. It is imperative to elect Board members who support Larry Nyland and the vital work he is leading. It is of great concern that some candidates for School Board promise to “shake things up,” implying that they do not support the important strides in motion.
.... I am proud to be a strong force for unity, respectful dialogue, and positive change on the School Board.
Warm regards,
Marty
=================
So the choice is clear for voters.
Make your choice and vote accordingly.
-- Dan Dempsey
Unfortunately the District wants revised forms submitted in a short timeframe (turned into school by Friday October 10.)
I visited the District website and found that the District has similarly revised the K-8 form. I have not received notice from my younger child's middle school principal.
It seems to me that every parent in SPS should get immediate notice of this revised from given the apparent deadline of Oct. 10.
Every principal could just use Brian Vance's message. It is clearly written. I will forward you his message so you can post it if you like.
JCS
2+2=What? Parents Rail Against Common Core Math
Given that Michael Tolley and Shauna Heath seem to think this is what your child should learn, NOT the curriculum selected by their bosses - better start saving for math tutoring. What a &^^$%#@! mess!
I'm glad Rick Burke testified at the board meeting that this is wrong.
Next week, they have a school boards candidate forum.
HP
SEE Washington Post article
Improving U.S. schools tougher than global health, Gates says
Bill Gates, whose foundation has poured hundreds of millions of dollars into K-12 education and influenced state and federal policy to embrace charter schools, teacher evaluation and the Common Core academic standards, said Thursday that trying to improve education is harder than work on global health.
“When we come up with a new malaria vaccine, nobody votes to undo our malaria vaccine,” Gates said in a speech at his foundation’s Seattle headquarters. “So it’s pretty steady progress. Every year is better than the last.”
But when you’re dealing with 100,000 public schools, politics makes changes to K-12 education much less predictable, he said. ..... and more
-- Dan Dempsey