Herndon to Speak at BHS PTSA Meeting Tonight

Have you wondered how Seattle is going to continue to deal with the growth in the North End of Seattle?  What new schools are opening in the next few years?  Are you concerned about how the boundary re-draw is going to impact your neighborhood or your school?  What grade levels will Lincoln High School open with in 2019?  Will Ballard and Roosevelt students be forced to move to Lincoln?  Do you have concerns about the impacts that the late start will have on athletics and field use?  If any of these questions apply to you, attend tonight’s Ballard High School PTSA Meeting at 7:00pm in the BHS Library and hear from the person who will ultimately be in charge of these decisions, SPS Associate Superintendent of Facilities and Operations, Flip Herndon. 

Please feel free to forward this to any friends at other schools that would also be interested in this conversation.

Keven Wynkoop
Ballard High School


Anonymous said…
Posting a couple recent comments from the APP blog, in case someone can address these tonight:

Yes, Ballard HS PTSA meeting attendees, please do relay what flip says re: Lincoln tonight! The district keeps using Lincoln as the solution, but it doesn't open until Fall 2019. However, according to the recent 5-year projections, Garfield will have aver 2200 students in 2018--something like 500 more than now! Roosevelt and Ballard are each projected to have a couple hundred more, too. Can those schools really absorb all those students? Nyland's laundry list of potential solutions won't come soon enough. Nor will the Ingraham expansion potentially funded by the pending levy. So what is a FEASIBLE plan? Is there room for more portables?

You might also ask Flip if they are considering split schedules (AM vs PM tracks) or alternative calendars (year round, with multiple tracks). You could also ask if they are considering sending HC (APP) students back to their neighborhood schools--which would alleviate the pressure on Garfield, but create even more crowding at north end neighborhood schools. And what would that do to Ingraham's IB program?


I am also very curious to hear what Flip Herndon has to say. I agree HF, they are going to have to solve Garfield's capacity issue at least a year before Lincoln opens, if not two years.

I've gone over and over these projections and capacity numbers (see links above). Things look ok in 2019-20, but in the year or two before that it's too crowded. Even if the levy passes and we get 500 seats at Ingraham, I don't see that being completed in time. Not counting neighborhood HCC, Ballard will be almost 400+ over capacity and Roosevelt will be 98 over capacity at the peak (2018-19). Neither of them has much room for portables. So having the schools take in their own HCC will cause a new problem.

Both Ingraham and Nathan Hale have room for portables. Ingraham could open more IB/IBX slots to take half of the overflow, and Nathan Hale could start up a Garfield-style AP cohort for the other half. Or a school at Memorial Stadium could be a solution, but they would have to do it right. Because whatever they choose to do with HCC, it has to be appealing to families. If it's not, we will stay in our neighborhood schools and those will break.

Good Fit

Anonymous said…
Thanks for sharing our thoughts Anonymous! Here are the links from that thread that I referenced (in parentheses above):

5 year projections:

Facilities info with "right-sized" 2020 capacity projections for each school, prepared in 2014.

On page 10 they explain what they mean by right sized: "For the purpose of developing
attendance boundaries that are appropriate in the long term, capacities that are right
sized provide a dedicated teaching space for each PCP teacher. They also provide a
dedicated computer lab at each school and remove current portables about 15% of the
total classroom count."

Good Fit
Anonymous said…
Don't know where they think they are going to put more portables at Hale. A lot of the property is shared with the Parks Department. Also, an HCC cohort doesn't match Hale's inclusiveness. Perhaps they will consider putting more Gen Ed kids at Hale and put HCC at Ingraham.

Lynn said…
As an attendance area high school, Hale can't refuse placement of a program based on the school's instructional philosophy.
Anonymous said…
Hale is philosophically against AP classes as most people know them. The AP classes they do have are general ed classes in which students who want to take the AP tests are given extra work and guidance to prepare for the tests. Exceptions may be AP Art and AP Calculus. Most HCC parents would not place their students in that environment.

Anonymous said…
Whatever they are considering for HS, they need to start having those conversations--publicly--soon. It's getting ridiculous.

And if the conversation with Flip covers more than just high school, it would be great to hear how he thinks an additional 100 students could possibly squeeze into Hamilton next year, when all available space is already in use.

Anonymous said…
Senior year at Hale (or sooner if you have the prerequisites), you can take AP Physics, AP Calculus, AP Environmental Science. AP LA and AP History are mixed classes and any kid in those classes can take the AP tests. Most of the kids who want college credit classes do a combination of the AP classes and Running Start. HCC kids can do very well at Hale if that is what they want. One HCC qualified kid took the ACT and got a perfect score this year at Hale.

How you do at Hale depends on you. The classes are not tracked and contain gen ed and honors. I don't see Hale putting in an exclusive HCC track because it isn't inclusive. I do see Hale adding more AP classes. This year there were more kids wanting AP Physics than there were spaces. A lot of the kids were made to choose between AP Physics and AP Environmental Science.

This is why we need to have open seats at all the high schools. There are things at each of them that appeal to different people. I never considered Roosevelt or Ingraham for my kid because Roosevelt was too large for my taste and IB had too much homework for my kid. We did look at Shorecrest but I found Hale to be similar to Shorecrest though Shorecrest has tracked classes. Hale was within walking distance. We also looked at several private schools but ultimately my kid chose Hale and it has been a great fit. My kid has already been accepted to some great colleges. Friends' kids have been accepted to great colleges too and some have received large merit scholarships. My point is, that all the Seattle HS have great programs and you can receive a great education at any of them if you want it.

HP, I agree and have always advocated for some way for kids to enroll in different high schools (especially for specialty programs.) We were promised this with the new SAP before the capacity started to rise (and they still didn't do it.)

This high school thing needs to be addressed.
Po3 said…
So potentially any incoming 9th grader at BHS or RHS could get moved mid-stream to Lincoln? Or will they just open Lincoln as a 9th grade and roll up over the next four years?
L said…
If you look at the projections, Lincoln opens with approx 1K kids... It's unlikely those are all 9th graders. However, I've asked Jon Halfaker and at the Roosevelt Open House and no one was even beginning to consider that incoming 9th graders next year would be moved as seniors to open Lincoln. It would be *really* good to have some clarity before open enrollment ends.

L&E mom
Lynn said…

No announcements have been made but I think they'll move kids from both schools at all grades to Lincoln when it opens. The planned roll up at JAMS was loudly rejected by parents.
This high school topic jogged my memory and here's some news about high schools.

I was talking to some Highline activists (and boy, are they unhappy with Susan Enfield) and they told me a couple of interesting things that may influence high school enrollment (somewhat):

- The enrollment process for Aviation High is changing and they predict that fewer Seattle students will get in (from 40 to 20). (The formula is 50% from Highline, 20% from Seattle and 30% other school districts.)

- There are a small number of students - both from Highline and West Seattle High - who go over to Vashon Island SD for high school. Vashon is now topping out and so those SPS students are likely to come back into the district.

- if no charter bill passes in the legislature (and I don't think it will), you'll have some Summit kids coming back into the district)

If among all those places the number coming back is 50+ students, the high schools will feel it.
Anonymous said…
The 5-yr projections show Lincoln opening with nearly 1100 students, so clearly not just 9th graders. They also show big declines that year for both Ballard and Roosevelt, suggesting some kids get pulled.

Lincoln is supposed to have 1600 seats. If they start it with 1100 students (as projected), maybe that's 9th-11th grade the first year? It would then be more like 1400 already by year 2. If they went this route, next year's 9th graders would be safe, but the class of 2020 would need to relocate midway through HS.

Or maybe they are planning to move north end APP to Lincoln, since Garfield will be way over capacity. In that case, the initial 1100 for Lincoln could be based on 9th-12th but a smaller geographic zone, plus another 500 or so APP kids.

God only knows what they are thinking...

Anonymous said…
They yanked JAMS kids out of Eckstein and will yank kids to open Eaglestaff and are planning on yanking kids out of Washington to open Meany so yes plan on being a junior at school A and if your address is in the Lincoln area being sent to Lincoln as a senior the year it opens. I'm a rollup fan but I am in the extreme minority based on past parent feedback.

Lynn said…
This note was included in the current five year projections schedule: Lincoln High School is based on three year residents at either Ballard or Roosevelt High Schools, as a percentage of each grade. The following 2015 elementary attendance areas were used to approximate the historic Lincoln High School boundary: Green Lake, B.F. Day, West Woodland, Bagley, and Greenwood.
Lynn said…
Wow. Roosevelt is inside the Green Lake attendance area. If those are the actual boundaries, kids may have to walk, drive or bus past Roosevelt to get to Lincoln.
Po3 said…
What if Summit Charter students don't apply for a seat in SPS during open enrollment. Will they just get assigned to a school w/ an open seat, when they do apply for a seat? Or will their attendance HS have to make room for them as technically they will be new students to the district?

Too much testing said…
HF - According to SPS projections, HIMS is about 200 more kids than this near (100 AA and 100 APP). Only 100 more than this year would be a dream LOL....Plus, I bet the SPS projection numbers are low. I'm not sure they know how many kids are taking HCC tests in our neighborhood 5th grade and already have private testing appointments set-up in case they don't qualify. It's not looking good for HIMS next year if it's truly super full this year.
Po3, good question. I don't know for sure but I think they would get assigned to their school based on address.
From Ingraham principal, Martin Floe:

"The Ingraham community has been discussing program changes centered on what we can do to meet a wider range of HCC students. We are happy to report that beginning with the next incoming 9th grade class Ingraham is expanding the program to include the following:

- The IBX program will still be at Ingraham in its current form as an opt-in program.

- We are adding a 4 year option for those that would be better served by a 4 year option.

- Students will be able to decide in their 9th grade year the option that is best for them."
Anonymous said…
Just have to respond to Momof2. Re: NH: "Most HCC parents would not place their students in that environment."

Your statement implies that NH is an unacceptable environment for HCC students. I beg to differ, and actually find your statement rather offensive. I would, have, and will send my HCC kids to NH and I know others who have as well. For starters, do not underestimate the value of the inclusiveness offered at NH. HCC kids need that environment as much, or sometimes even more so than some of their Gen Ed peers. NH offers plenty of challenge for kids who want it and every year sends students to some of the most selective colleges in the country. They turn out National Merit Scholars, and as HP says, many students earn very substantial merit scholarships. Hale has all Juniors and Seniors take AP LA, but the other AP classes are self contained. My son took AP Calculus, AP Computer Science, AP Spanish, AP Physics and AP History in addition to the two AP LA classes. All were self contained. I know parents of many HCC and Spectrum kids who went to NH and all were very satisfied with their experience there. HCC kids undoubtedly can and do find success in all of Seattle's high schools. I have found NH to be almost like a private school in some ways, as teachers know the students well and push each of them in areas where they can grow.
Lynn said…
DM is correct. There are 18 highly capable students at Nathan Hale this year.


Anonymous said…
Regarding Hale. There are very bright, high-performing kids at Hale...just not tons who have the "HCC" label. These kids went to local elementary schools, where there was not much incentive to test into APP, because it was a long haul to Lowell, then Lincoln. Also, most sophomores, juniors and seniors at Hale went to either Eckstein or Hazel Wolf K-8 for middle school, which offered Spectrum, not APP/HCC. After suffering through our kids being bused far away to Hamilton for middle school prior to the NSAP (because Eckstein had "no room"), having the opportunity to enroll in a NE middle school program was seen as kind of a luxury. There wasn't a hugely-compelling reason for north-end parents to send their kids all the way to Hamilton, due to the long bus ride.

Counting HCC kids doesn't seem like a great diagnostic for determining whether or not a school succeeds at serving kids who need challenging academics, at least not in neighborhoods historically far-removed from elementary or middle school APP/HCC. Now that the local middle school (JAMS) has APP, I suspect more kids from the neighborhood schools will test into HCC, and that Hale's HCC count will increase in the near future.

With all the growth in the Hale attendance area over the past decade, I have a feeling Hale will over-fill without the addition of a stand-alone HCC-like program.

-North-end Mom
Anonymous said…
From the planning assumptions for the 5 year projections released in Oct 2015:

- Boundaries are modeled on 2015 boundaries, with the exceptions of GeoSplits occurring at
Cedar Park Elementary, Meany Middle School, Eagle Staff Middle School and Lincoln High
School. This provides a conservative estimate for boundary changes not triggered by new
schools, as it assumes that grandfathering occurs at these schools and thus estimates
implications on capacity accordingly.

Bringing new buildings online:
All new buildings opening (2017 for Cedar Park Elementary, Meany and Eagle Staff Middle Schools and
2019 for Lincoln High School), were assumed to be filled by residents currently attending their
attendance area school, across all grades, on the year the building comes online."

Someone posted that there was overwhelming support for the JAMS geo-split. I don't recall much, if any, support for the geo-split coming from parents of kids who were getting ripped out of either Hamilton or Eckstein. In fact, I remember lots of public testimony against it.

-North-end Mom
Anonymous said…
I remember a huge outcry from 5th grade parents against doing a rollup at JAMS. They demanded the geo-split. Will those 5th graders be the ones affected by a hs geo-split. Wonder if their parents will be demanding it again or will they decide they prefer roll-ups?

Anonymous said…
Regarding Lincoln, doesn't it seem like Lincoln should be the high school for international/IB programming, given two of the elem schools within its boundaries are JSIS and McDonald "international", and that Hamilton "international" would be a primary feeder into Lincoln? If not, then what was the point of opening McDonald as language immersion, so the students would geographically feed into Hamilton, ...which now feeds way up north to Ingrahm? Two schools worth of students essentially driving/busing up to Ingrahm, when Lincoln is walking distance?

Maybe a separate post on the Lincoln topic after the Ballard PTA meeting - to share what was discussed there plus other commentary?

-International Curious
Anonymous said…
I couldn't be there. How was the meeting?


North-end Mom
jujubee said…
There's a summary of the meeting at the HCC Community Forum:


susan said…
I agree with you, International Curious. Lincoln should be home to kids closest to it. Just like Ballard, Ingraham and Roosevelt should. And, just like QA/Mag should have a high school. I think the schools used to "populate" Lincoln projections in 2019 are pretty odd.
Anonymous said…
Flip mentioned the schools that they will be looking at when boundaries are re-drawn to populate Lincoln for its day one opening could include Ballard HS, Roosevelt, Ingraham, and Nathan Hale. It could also include Magnolia and Queen Anne student being drawn out of Ballard HS and drawn in to Lincoln. I imagine that many people in these communities don't have it on their radar that their kids could be included in the boundary re-drawn and that their students could be pulled from their high school mid-stream before graduation, even for their senior year. All things are on the table for consideration it seems.

Northend mom
Anonymous said…
Nathan Hale may have a lot to offer, but it doesn't offer as many AP courses as some of the other neighborhood high schools. That means kids coming from HCC are more likely to max out in certain areas (e.g., math and science) and be forced to do Running Start. Some might like that, others might prefer to stay on campus.

Question: do HCC students have to retake Physical Sci at Hale (9th grade Academy), even though they did it in 7th? And what about Biology, if they already passed the EOC in 8th? If they start with Chem in 9th (honors, but no AP available), then do AP Enviro Sci and AP Physics in 10th/11th, is there anything available for a good fourth year of science?

And how about math? If they did Algebra II in 8th, they are on track for Precalculus, then AP Calc AB, then AP Stats. Then what? Is there really no second year calculus available?

I like a lot about Hale, but am concerned that HCC students may have to repeat some work and/or be forced off campus to get appropriate work. Is that inaccurate, or is there any indication it will be changing?

Thank you,
Hale Curious

Anonymous said…
I have heard of 9th graders starting in pre-calculus because they have the credits for the previous classes. I do believe that they transferred to running start for 11th and 12th grade. They still remained very involved at Hale. Hale seems to work well with Running Start.

Most of the Running Start kids go to North Seattle College and take 1 or 2 classes a semester at NCC. There are a few who went full on Running Start and will not graduate from Hale. They wanted to avoid the senior project more than the classes at Hale. I don't know about the science classes other than that some do take science classes at NCC. NCC has a pretty good program for transferring into the UW.

My own kid took Geometry elsewhere and was able to get credit at Hale. It seems from my own observations that Hale is willing to work out a schedule that is best for your kid. I do think that more AP classes will need to be offered in the future because the demand at Hale is increasing. My kids AP Calculus class has 45 students in it. The teacher is amazing and seems to be able to handle the class size. Plus, these are all kids that have worked hard to get into the class. They want to be there.

Anonymous said…
Ack, NCC should be NSC (North Seattle College).

Anonymous said…
Yes, unfortunately there is a problem with science at Hale for HCC in that incoming 9th graders will indeed have to retake both 9th grade Physical Science and Biology. I have been told by the science teachers at JAMS, as well as the folks at NH that the Physical Science course is actually quite a bit different in 9th grade than what HCC kids have taken in 7th.

Per NH:
"Physical science in middle school is dramatically different than in high school. Our inquiry based and hands on approach to science is often is more mathematically challenging for students in high school . We approach our physical science for 9th grade as a Pre-physics and Pre-chemistry class covering the following topics:
Robotics, Energy, and the Particle nature of matter for first semester. Then in second semester we look at Kinematics, dynamics of force and motion, light optics, thermodynamics and climate change.
In 9th grade our main focus is building a community of learners as moving from middle school to high school is an important transition."
I think Biology is a larger concern. As it stands now, it is part of their integrated studies program for 10th graders, where it ties in with their LA and SS curriculum. I think if they could figure out an option of taking Chemistry instead of Biology without giving up their integrated studies, they would be more attractive to HCC families. It might mean some of the students are doing a slightly different project on the science part of integrated studies, but that seems like it could still be workable. I do agree that they also will likely need to add at least one more level of math. So many students take AP classes that I think they could add more of those as well, although there is a limit to how many classes one student can fit in their schedule anyway. Bottom line, I think that if it is done thoughtfully, Hale could attract and accommodate even more HCC students with only a few "tweaks" and without giving up their inclusiveness and "Coalition of Essential Schools" model.

Hale Fan
Anonymous said…
Thanks, Hale Fan. I'll inquire more over on the HCC blog, as this is an issue that may extend beyond Hale.

Hale Curious

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