What Will the District Do about Advanced Learning?
Pivoting off the recent article in the Seattle Times, this is an important question for many reasons. Let's see what the article says:
What the outlook on gifted ed in Washington State?
Test ALL second graders, not just those in Title One schools or who sign up? Try what other districts are doing and test in a native language (which would seem more expensive than just all second graders but probably with better results).
I admitted to being baffled about where the district is in their process of reviewing the AL program. I can find nothing at the AL webpage. And, given they need to create boundaries based on the HCC part of the program AND it's part of the SAP that they are somewhat revising (a thread on that to come), you'd think it would be vital to get this work done.
There are open spots on the Highly Capable Services Advisory Committee.
Now I know some of you - a small minority - somehow believe that either it's illegal to serve these students or the district is running their program in an illegal manner but given that OSPI has grants for these students and no one that I know of has ever sued the district over its program, I'm going to say neither theory is correct, so can those of you that believe it, could you just let it go this round of discussion?
Link to an overview Charlie wrote on the levels of the Advanced Learning Program
Link to report on Work Session earlier this year on Advanced Learning
Let us know your (new) thoughts. Also, again, do not attack any child or any parent - it's not helpful to the discussion at all.
In August, every district was directed to make it a priority to find low-income kids who may be candidates for accelerated learning. By Nov. 10, under a new state law, each district must submit a detailed plan to the Office of Superintendent of Public Instruction on how they will do so this school year.I'll note that Ms. DeBonte was the expert that the Board brought in for the last Work Session on gifted education and she gave an outstanding presentation.
“That’s a massive, massive change,” said Austina De Bonte, president of the Northwest Gifted Child Association, who has two children in the Northshore schools.
Along with the new state edict comes double the money. Officials at the state superintendent’s office hope the extra dollars will be used for much broader student screening.
What the outlook on gifted ed in Washington State?
Most of Washington’s Highly Capable classrooms have almost no low-income kids, nor students for whom English is a second language.I'll have to ask at OSPI how much extra mean this might mean. The district has no curriculum for Advanced Learning (but has been getting along in its own fashion with acceleration but finding more students of color seems to be the better way to spend those new dollars.
That pattern matches the national picture. Children in poverty and those from minority groups are 2.5 times less likely to be identified for gifted programs, according to the National Association for Gifted Children.
But a few districts — such as Northshore, Mount Vernon and Federal Way — have begun to test all kids, sometimes in their first language. That matches what many other states have been doing as well.
Test ALL second graders, not just those in Title One schools or who sign up? Try what other districts are doing and test in a native language (which would seem more expensive than just all second graders but probably with better results).
I admitted to being baffled about where the district is in their process of reviewing the AL program. I can find nothing at the AL webpage. And, given they need to create boundaries based on the HCC part of the program AND it's part of the SAP that they are somewhat revising (a thread on that to come), you'd think it would be vital to get this work done.
There are open spots on the Highly Capable Services Advisory Committee.
Now I know some of you - a small minority - somehow believe that either it's illegal to serve these students or the district is running their program in an illegal manner but given that OSPI has grants for these students and no one that I know of has ever sued the district over its program, I'm going to say neither theory is correct, so can those of you that believe it, could you just let it go this round of discussion?
Link to an overview Charlie wrote on the levels of the Advanced Learning Program
Link to report on Work Session earlier this year on Advanced Learning
Let us know your (new) thoughts. Also, again, do not attack any child or any parent - it's not helpful to the discussion at all.
Comments
ELL
Low SES
Historically under-served
SpEd
Grow the program by 25% with these new kids and voila.
FF
Irene
We can identify more children who could work grade levels ahead, but ultimately this comes down to teaching and challenging every child no matter where they are at their age. The biggest barrier to doing that isn't testing. It's state funding.
Money doesn't solve everything. It helps, but there are a lot of issues within SPS that money won't fix. I'm honestly not sure what the answer is.
Big Mess
Tired
We know of two students who qualify F&R lunch in HCC. I actually helped one parent learn about the program and was not surprised when the student qualified through school testing. The student did not enter until 7th grade. We know several more who qualified for spectrum. They are white, but then again this area of Seattle is also predominately white. The Eastside overwhelmingly has Asian kids qualifying for advanced learning, and it is interesting that whites are underrepresented.
The SPS HCC parent group advocating for more "kids of color" in advanced learning seem more focused upon race, rather than poverty etc in advocating for inclusiveness. I read an SPS report from 2013 that concluded poverty was more of a barrier to advanced learning than race in SPS. I am really glad the state is advocating to help find more low SES kids. We should be trying to find as many low SES student as we can of all races. In predominately white Seattle though, this will also mean finding more white (& asian) low SES kids. They don't seem to be the focus.
-a parent
DisAPPointed
Southend Parent
But still, back to my earlier point, if we're going to focus on intellectually gifted rather than high achieving, it would be nice if the instruction were consistent with that, too.
DisAPPointed
Our kid, who is 'twice exceptional' (ADD and issues with handwriting), qualified for district wide CogAT testing 3 times during elementary (in 2nd, 3rd, and 5th grade, in 4th he was not invited to test). Each time he was within a point of two of making the MAP cutoff for the language scores - had no problem with math. Yes, I appealed (twice, in 3rd and 5th grades). I got letters from experts describing his specific learning disabilities. I was told by the district on both appeals that he was not qualified for the program because he would not be able to keep up and that what really matters is achievement, not ability.
So there is a more essential question of whether the kids in the program are those who are "highly capable" or "highly achieving". There is imperfect overlap between these two groups. The highly capable group needs something different, not necessarily straight up acceleration, but a deeper dive into the materials. What we're getting from the district is acceleration only. Based on this approach, perhaps they were right not to admit my child (in the upper 1% of CogATs 3 times) to the program. But I think focusing the program on achievement is deeply flawed.
Sadly, the ship has sailed for my highly capable student. School is a boring place. I have concerns about how this will play out, but we do what we can. This is a lost opportunity to educate bright kids from all income levels, some of whom may have extra challenges. I am sure that there are many kids across the district in a similar place - and some just never get invited to test.
sixwrens
What is weird is when the district staff tells the Board that they need to examine and figure out what is happening in AL. When they created it. And they run it.
Oh.
Information=power, especially in this district.
About Time
Parents have been making recommendations for decades on how to change identification and service delivery to improve equity, but every idea has fallen on deaf ears.
Doors Windows
If SPS relaxed the definition of HCC eligible to include kids with lower MAP scores, don't you think there will be a proportionate number of white and Asian kids allowed into the program that weren't before? Wouldn't the net effect be to just increase the number of kids in HCC without significantly changing the diversity of the cohort?
Curious
sixwrens
THIS IS THE CRUX OF THE ISSUE FOR SO, SO MANY PARENTS. I have had multiple conversations with parents about AL (and learning in general at SPS), and I hear this concern echoed over and over again. Many parents know their kids probably aren't "gifted," but hope against the odds that somehow they test into the AL program in order to experience some kind of challenge in school. They know AL is probably not the best fit, and they really don't want to send their kid somewhere out of the neighborhood, but the neighborhood school has lowered the bar nearly to the floor and they are desperate.
Personally, I have watched over the last three years as my middle schooler's love for math (and enthusiasm for learning in general) has dimmed, and I am deeply saddened by this. I respect his teachers and know they are trying hard; personally I believe most of them are hamstrung by SBAC-focused language and assessments and district mandates. So what can I do? I'm lucky that I have the time and ability to supplement at home right now, but not all parents can do this, and I can't do it forever. So I sign my kid up for the AL test and cross my fingers. I'm not alone.
We need more rigor for all. Across the board. Why is SPS seemingly allergic to rigor? It's insulting and embarrassing, and ironically it leads to the besmirching of the district's gifted education program.
Flummoxed
The State has this right it is about SES/ ELL and not about race. SPS GIVES leeway for these kids as part of the application process but more should be done for the none title one schools.
My understanding is that the screening has resulted in few HCC kids being identified almost all were spectrum which is now gone.
Love life
So to fix the problem, Seattle needs to significantly increase Black/ African American and Hispanic participation, while not significantly increasing White and Asian participation.
Let’s consider each population. With regards to Black / African Americans, for the most part, English is not the issue, with the exception of African Immigrants. Instead, one only needs to look at the number of Black/African Americans with “4”s on the SBAC. Statistically, the numbers track very closely to the low numbers that are identified as HiCAP. The SBAC is given to everyone, during the school day, with everyone taking the same practice tests, and without nominations. And it’s pretty hard to argue that the SBAC math test, for example, is sufficiently culturally biased against Blacks in favor of Whites to account for the difference. So the reality in Seattle is that the only way to significantly increase the proportionate participation of Black / African Americans is to: (a) effectively lower the required scores (likely for both CogAT and Achievement Tests); or (b) increase the testing performance as compared to Whites. Anything else is really just window dressing.
With regards to Hispanics in Seattle, there is the same base issue as there is with Blacks / African Americans: they don’t perform as well on the achievement tests which are given to everyone with the same in-class practice tests etc. With Hispanics, there is the added issue of “language”. If the district continues to use achievement tests for eligibility and they want Hispanic participation to increase, in addition to the issues stated above, they are also going to have to offer both the math test and the ELA test in the student’s native language.
So what should we expect from the district? First, we can expect more window dressing, like additional outreach, that won’t make a meaningful difference in the numbers, but will make people feel like something is being done. Behind the scenes, the district is going to have to consider race when deciding eligibility, while pretending otherwise so it doesn’t get sued. If they fix the race issue, they will fix a lot of the low-income issue as well.
The easiest way to do that is to get rid of the hard test score cutoffs (except in reality keep them for most Whites and Asians) and to take the new money from the state to hire a few people that feel passionately about racial equity and put them on the selection committee to look for the highest achieving Blacks and Hispanics in the district and to then write up the justification for their selection.
I believe that given the same background Blacks/ African Americans and Hispanics can proportionality perform just as well as Whites and Asians, but that early on the biggest opportunity gap exists outside of school. This initial GAP is then compounded over time for minority HiCAP students because they didn't' qualify early on and they are not sufficiently challenged in school. So early on, I believe we should lower the bar, however, its done.
First, private testing isn't a retake of the CogAT. Private testing is a different test, often the WISC, and is considered to be more accurate than CogAT. It's administered one on one by a licensed psychologist trained to interpret the nuances of the results. False positives on a WISC test are very, very rare, while false negatives on a CogAT group test are known to be common.
Second, SPS provides these secondary tests free of charge to FRL families. Many psychologists provide testing services on a sliding scale to families who don't qualify for FRL but need assistance. Some insurance policies even cover testing in the case of learning disability diagnosis. Your claim that these are only available to families who can afford it is a common misconception but it's simply not true.
So "retesting" isn't happening, and the idea that only affluent families can test is a myth. But yes, there are problems. The biggest is families have to be savvy and connected to know about things like insurance coverage and sliding scale fees and FRL testing. They have to vet psychologists and anticipate and book their test appointments in advance before the slots all fill up. SPS does a very poor job of communicating resources. So, @About Time, thankfully there are community resources like the HCC blog that do their best to alert families of these options.
resources
Keep HCC as it is if people find that it works well, but don't assume it will work for all newly identified students. Find a way to give them what they need rather than only what the district is in the habit of providing.
Irene
@NE parent-- Yes, there is lots of research that demonstrates this is the case. Research indicates economic background (& education level of parent) is a stronger factor than race. In addition, poor whites and poor Asians are also less likely to qualify for advanced learning programs.
It is also informative that wealthier districts such as Mercer Island and Bellevue have an even higher number of students who qualify for advanced learning programs.
Irene also makes a really good point.
-P
Neither my husband or I had much of an education background. Neither of us had attended college, and I had dropped out of high school, but we both felt education was the key to expanding our childrens future.
Both did well with the independent testing, one topping out the Stanford Binet and scoring 160+ on the Wppsi & Wisc.
However she did not qualify for any additional support or services through Seattle public schools using group administered achievement testing.
On the advice of the neighborhood kindergarten teacher ( and the educational psychologist at the UW), we began looking for alternatives to the neighborhood school.
I thought one of the choice schools could work, but unfortunately they had very limited slots outside the immediate area.
However, the educational psychologist was on the board of a private school, and she suggested that we consider it. It seemed very different from the program at the public schools, small classes, child directed experiential learning and admittedly a little chaotic.
They also seemed happy to offer very generous financial aid, and after considering our paltry options at the public level, it seemed our best choice.
Many kids whose parents do not have advanced education could also likely benefit from an enriched classroom.
I have been a constant proponent of socioeconomic diversity in the schools, it seems a missed opportunity not to take advantage of that opportunity.
The district runs advanced learning. Why don't they know what it is? Why don't they know how it's doing? Why are the needs of advanced learners an afterthought when the CSIPs are drawn up? Why doesn't MTSS cover what to do with students who are ahead of benchmark?
George
Pros/cons?
DisAPPointed
i think it is great that they are focusing on ell and frl. i would add 2e. but i would never do this based on race. those who claim falsely that race needs to be considered are so off the mark it makes my head spin. funny that the race and equity team have never addressed the board about how this is a problem and a few ways to solve it. it is a whole department that oversees everything. al department also has their own team too.
progressive seattle chose to only screen the southeast t1 schools, then they went to all t1 schools. cool, but what about the poor hidden kids or ell kids at none t1 schools?
i would think a high iq 98+(sps uses a very modern cogat to reduce bias) and proven spark should be enough for all kids, regardless of math/reading achievement. yeah so some may need a bit to get to great grades but they add to the class and will get things from the class too. i know too crazy right.
the whole push to kill the hs pathway sure shows why this is misguided. the district needs to figure out a program. they currently really have none. they did 10+ years ago. before tolley. now all we hear about is race and not curriculum, pathways and more watering down of rigor. oh and that all those involved are surely racist or why would they try to put their kids in their almost all white school into an almost all white hcc program. surely not curriculum, pathways and needed rigor.
no caps
There has been an overall lowering of academic expectations, across all program levels. Content and skills are seen as "rote" learning, and there's a pervasive belief that students will magically learn and improve without explicit instruction. As long as SPS embraces this magical thinking, little will improve. The presentation at the Lincoln meeting is Exhibit A for such beliefs.
magical thinking
Hint: Colleges don't care that your 3rd grader was in HCC. They do care about high school achievement, based on how the child progressed from freshman to senior year. They do care about taking rigorous classes within the building they are in. Not compared to other buildings. They do care about standardized testing scores. Again, none of these categories are correlated to HCC status entering high school.
Offering priority AP class enrollment to the HCC cohort is suspect enough. (See standardized test scores vs. HCC qualified kids. Let's just say HCC status does NOT represent.)
All SPS high schools to the best of their ability need to offer honors or AP classes across core subjects. This does not mean every high school should offer every possible AP class or math level. That is simply not possible with budget levels. Hint: Private schools don't offer every possible highest level course either. All should offer college admissions counseling. All should offer enrichment opportunities. Kids coming into high school from HCC should be monitored and mentored for taking challenging classes and should be given a list of competitive colleges in their areas of interest along with knowledge of how to access scholarships and ways to access college if their family has little money. That's about all HCC-cohort kids should get or that the program should offer. "Can my kid compete to get into Berkeley?" Notsomuch.
Can kids from any standard public high school in Seattle get into Berkeley? Right now? Yes. Yes they can. The level of rigor at SPS high schools is just fine. The number of kids who are not perhaps the sparkling academic wunderkinds their proud parents believe they are or should be? Now that's another thing altogether. Ask any SPS high school principal.
Annoyed Bigly
-J
Next Step
Amen.
"Hint: Private schools don't offer every possible highest level course either. All should offer college admissions counseling. All should offer enrichment opportunities."
Also amen.
Care to share those data you alluded to re: HCC population and standardized test scores? The data that show "HCC status does not represent" (whatever that means)?
This does not mean every high school should offer every possible AP class or math level.
And...nobody ever said they should. That's kind of why we have HCC pathways.
Kids coming into high school from HCC should be monitored and mentored for taking challenging classes... And there's the rub. For many kids, the only way they are going to be able to take classes they find challenging is if they have access to AP classes. To just say "well, all high school classes can be challenging!" is total BS. Its' like the Honors for All joke.
Kids coming into high school from HCC should be monitored and mentored for taking challenging classes and should be given a list of competitive colleges in their areas of interest along with knowledge of how to access scholarships and ways to access college if their family has little money. That's about all HCC-cohort kids should get or that the program should offer. Awesome. That's mostly what they want--courses that are sufficiently challenging. Glad we're on the same page.
Can kids from any standard public high school in Seattle get into Berkeley? Right now? Yes. Yes they can.
Of course--but that's partly because colleges look at more than just grades and courses. If you're an underrepresented group--by race, income, disability, gender for major, etc., your chances are a lot better. If you're an Asian male interested in computer science though, and you go to a school that doesn't offer many AP classes and doesn't have a reputation for a strong curriculum, you can pretty much kiss your chances goodbye. That's a whole different equity issue though, so probably not of interest to you.
unclear
If there are 8 kids who need Calculus BC, you're often out of luck. We can't spare a teacher for that low of a number.
-MoreFunding
"They do care about taking rigorous classes within the building they are in. Not compared to other buildings."
Yes, so it's not like colleges will mind if some of Seattle's students go to a "hard" high school and take a bunch of AP classes or earn an IB diploma. That wouldn't be a bad thing.
Plus, it's weird that almost no HCC students choose to go to West Seattle, Sealth, Franklin, Cleveland, Hale, and Beach if just taking the hardest classes in the building is all colleges are looking for.
--yet those in the assignment areas of these schools have essentially no choice but to attend these schools that are widely considered to be second-tier or worse. HCC students have some choices...but the gen. ed. locals--NOT.
SPS has set up a student assignment plan that is custom-built for charters and vouchers.
For those who are so opposed to De Vos--planning to protest her visit, portraying her as the anti-Christ to their own liberal values--yet continue to scare off real attempts at fairness and justice by using "busing" as the Willie Horton factor:
well, we can't have "busing again" or gerrymandering or real choice schools (if it involves "busing")...but I'm open to, you know, "ideas and discussion"...
you have no credibility left.
About Time
Isn't that one of the primary reasons for pathway schools? Having a big enough cohort of students working beyond grade level that a school doesn't have to say, tough luck? Same goes for language pathways - they can offer advanced language classes that wouldn't otherwise be available at each neighborhood school. Few private high schools offer Calc BC (at least when we toured years ago). One school even suggested Running Start. That SPS, with a student population large enough to offer advanced classes that even private schools can't always offer (due to their small size), can't seem to figure it out continues to boggle the mind.
sheesh
As a parent all of my interactions and email exchanges with the SPS district office could be published as a chapter in Fashionable Nonsense.
-Parent
Unclear says: "Awesome. That's mostly what they want--courses that are sufficiently challenging. Glad we're on the same page."
The school district has not within the past quarter century had any statement of what the intention of any advanced learning program is: not what the program should or should not offer, not what the curriculum should include, not what needs it should be designed to meet, not how it should meet those needs, not whether there is expected to be any way to measure whether the program is accomplishing any of the things that people imagine it ought to do.
This leaves everybody free to imagine that they know what "the program" should be, and then to be disappointed because the school district can't hit a target that it has never tried to see.
Sigh.
Irene
There have to be better alternatives that actually address the needs of those who need gifted education (both early high achievers and those who need a little more time to get going) and those who need a little more rigor/enrichment until the classes start to even out a little.
NE Parent
http://www.houstonisd.org/cms/lib2/TX01001591/Centricity/Domain/21217/Magnet-Matrix-2017-2018.pdf
Limited English Proficiency and low SES get 8 extra points.
Since SPS is so overworked, apparently, and under-funded, without a doubt, why don't they just duplicate Houston's program?
Leontyne
of course there should be a set number l or should there be... i leave it to the district to define it.
No caps
SAD
And again, there's no way this is like private school on the public dine. It's a nice sound bite, but far removed from reality.
Big sigh
And the connections that get someone into HCC are the implicit and unspoken and tacit connections that get people ahead everyday - affluence, native English speaker, white usually certain Asians sometimes, and property in certain Seattle neighborhoods like NE Seattle and Capitol Hill. Sorry to be so blunt, but that has been my experience.
-NP
Irene
-Parent
What specifically are these "implicit, unspoken and tacit connections" in your anecdotal evidence? (Not being sarcastic - I really am curious about the reasons behind the open and accepted bias in Seattle toward certain swaths of the community e.g. Asians, NE Seattle).
AA
Private school is truly defined by the ability of the school to say NO. No, you can't come to this school. HCC has to accept all students who meet the criteria.
We can argue what that criteria should be all day long. But just the same way that the criteria for an attendance area school is that you live in the attendance area. And the same way that the criteria for an option school is that you apply during open enrollment and are assigned based on that criteria. If the criteria for HCC is met, then the student is enrolled.
The simple truth is that public school has a wide variation in learning needs. There are students multiple grade levels below and students multiple grade levels above.
I don't think anyone believes that HCC is the best model. There are many other districts with much better models.
That said, the claim that advance learning equals private school is specious and deeply distracting to the creation of any actual solution. I define actual solution is one where more kids are getting their needs met.
Telling to say the least. It's pretty clear most are content to exclude.
Penguin
-big picture
Clearly students are being missed in the identification process, and then there's another group that could qualify but wouldn't want to participate, and some who might barely qualify if it weren't for the achievement requirement, then there is everyone else. Should we get rid of the program because it isn't something my friend (and others) want for their children? Honest question.
Back to my friend-- She says they don't feel excluded, they just would rather stay with their neighborhood community and don't want to have their boy pushed ahead in math, but they don't care if someone else puts their kid in HCC. She is just one example, and obviously nit representative of a variety of populations and perspectives. But this makes me wonder: Who is the source of the disdain for HCC, white parents or black parents? If it's white parents, have they checked in with the families with black, brown or native students to see if they are representing their viewpoints? If it is black or brown parents, can you please make a suggestion of what would be your preferred way to serve black/brown gifted children so they are not excluded? Please speak up, I would like to hear from you!
Likely, many parents are simply not reading this blog and don't have time to navigate the SPS system. It would be nice to hear from this population (not the usual squeaky wheels) to find out what their ideas are for creating a better gifted program and a system of schools that isn't exclusive, if indeed that is what they feel we have. Maybe that survey that went out will uncover some useful perspectives, though it seems many people were missed and it was limiting in how feedback could be entered into the system. At least SPS tried to get feedback, that's a positive first step.
Ground Up
SPS has a responsibility to educate these kids and give them a chance to help save our injured planet.
Could it be done without separating the HC students into homogeneous classrooms?
It seems that SPS finds it cheaper and easier to just put up a questionably fair testing regime and then defend the outcomes that disproportionately exclude poor students, black students, Native students, ELL students and SpED students.
DO we have the laziest district in the world, the most incompetent, the most racist and classist or is this really the best Seattle can do in 2017?
Wondeing
I don't see that and what was your suggestion, Penguin?
Wondering, your last sentence? You said a mouthful.
But go ahead, make it all about those elitist, exclusionary parents again, like usual.
unclear
"almost no HCC students choose to go to West Seattle, Sealth, Franklin, Cleveland, Hale, and Beach"
--yet those in the assignment areas of these schools have essentially no choice but to attend these schools that are widely considered to be second-tier or worse. HCC students have some choices...but the gen. ed. locals--NOT.
This comment is insulting to those schools and misleading about advanced learning "choices." Franklin sends the largest number of students to the UW every year, because the UW knows students from Franklin are college ready. Cleveland is an option school with a long wait list every single year. Everyone is there by choice. Hale has an inclusive philosophy and also an annual wait list. Anyone that has ever heard a Rainier Beach student testify at school board meeting would not be so dismissive when discussing Beach. Likewise with Sealth and WSHS.
The original statement about HCC students not choosing those schools has a lot more to do with the needed course offerings and the Calculus AB example is perfect.
High School is funded by the State of Washington at much lower rate than the K8 grade levels. As such, there is even less money to go around at high school. Not every student needs Calc AB to be college ready as this is several years outside of the typical high school sequence. There is not funding to put Calc AB on the master schedule for every school for a handful of students.
However, there are many students for whom Calc AB is just the natural progression for their math sequence and SPS needs to provide Calc AB is a way that both serves students and is fiscally responsible.
At the moment, SPS has only one advanced learning option - the cohort. However, what advanced learning "looks like" varies widely from elementary, to middle school and then to high school. For high school, there needs to be 1-3 high schools that are required and have the needed cohort size to provide these classes on the master schedule. Otherwise, SPS is essentially saying that once you reach this level in math (or science or name your subject) SPS no longer provides classes for you and you need to go to Running Start or explore online options.
Second-tier is nothing to scoff at in the scheme of things, especially since SPS outperforms the state average. But the fact remains that there is a tiered level of high schools that are unfairly available according to address (except for HCC).
If the HCC crowd doesn't think those schools are good enough for their kids then they are not good enough. "Needed offerings" is code for advanced offerings which is code for high quality.
Being the messenger doesn't mean I'm putting down the students who attend those schools. That is a classic lawyer tactic to avoid addressing the issue, which in this case is the highly disparate quality of schools in Seattle and the SAP.
Almost Time
Plenty of people clamor to get into those schools. I am aware of many parents who finagle into Hale especially. Less often hcc parents because then their kids have to repeat 2 years of science. Gen ed parents in general don't want that either. I don't think any kid should have to repeat classes they have passed. I understans it would be cost prohibitive to offer advanced classes with small numbers of students who need them, so a pathway makes sense.
-sleeper
Since there is an SAP that limits students (except HCC) to essentially be at a high school based on the family address, where's the justice here? If there are some neighborhood high schools that have enough offerings to take some parents out of the "pathway" then what about the ones that would never be considered because (let's just cut to the chase) they are not high quality enough? Their local students are stuck.
The variety of offerings at schools are very much dependent on the socio-economics of their region, thanks to a strict SAP that would be considered unacceptable in most larger school districts.
Almost Time
I think high schools should be required to offer 4 years of sequential classes to follow the classes they place middle schoolers in, but SPS and some principals do not agree. Interestingly, while elementary and middle school principals are lukewarm at best on the HC pathway, high school principals overwhelmingly favor it. High school really is different.
Please stop trying to piece together my personal details. I will also pay you the respect of not trying to out you on a blog.
-sleeper
-sleeper
If you are going to defend the SAP (or "piggyback" on the Kellie defense train) by giving the message that the SAP's okay as long as there a few pathways, don't be surprised if you get called on hypocrisy. Someone named "sleeper" (whoever you/they are--and I could care less) gave a completely different message to a different audience on a public blog. Outing? Get real.
Sort of like Clinton's "deplorables" comment or Obama's "guns and bibles" comment getting called out.
Over Time
-sleeper
"Needed offerings" is code for advanced offerings which is code for high quality."
Is it? It might be but it also is the district's way of serving advanced learners. They cannot afford to have the number of AP or IB offerings at every single high school. So how to save money and serve those students? You have a couple of schools that have many offerings. There is nothing nefarious in that. Would it push other parents - non-HCC - who might want a more college-focused track for their students? It might.
And I agree with Sleeper - many parents would like to get into Hale and Franklin.
We do not out people here. You are welcome to reference comment elsewhere but do not attempt to provide linkage. You wouldn't like it.
I think the question is if a high school has more advanced offerings, does that make it better? It may drive more involved parents sure. That tends to create a stronger PTA. But much of how great a school is remains in the hands of the district and THAT is where you should direct your ire.
Again, what do you want the district to do in order to provide equity to students AND fulfill their legal mandate for HCC students in a cost-effective manner?
Could you please pick a moniker and stick to it. It is very challenging to try to follow you with shifting names.
"No one on this blog" is an incredibly sweeping statement and like all sweeping statements blindingly inaccurate. The SAP does allow for ALL students to have some choice. Now the fact that downtown wants to eliminate as much choice as possible from the SAP, will once again have a greater impact on general education students than HCC students, who have some protections as a protected class.
No one is "forced" to go to Cleveland by the SAP because Cleveland is an option school. That said, downtown wants to change this status and remove that option for ALL students. Franklin has a huge waiting list every year and plenty of space to take many of these students. The simple fact that downtown limits that choice artificially is a problem.
You state that you do not have high school students. Then you most likely do not know that high school is the master schedule. Plain and simple. There is no "grade level" experience in high school. There is only a master schedule and a mysterious process where students access classes on those schedules.
There is huge distinction between the offerings on a master schedule and the "quality" of a school. They have little or nothing to do with each other. Instead the master schedule is a reflection of the cohort and "needed offerings" of the students assigned to that school.
"needed offerings" is not code for "quality" and because of the way that high schools are funded there is zero possibility that it could be code. The state only requires 3 years of math to graduate high school. Because of the way the State of Washington dramatically underfunds high school, not every high school has the capability to offer math to the level of Calc AB as part of the master schedule process.
The simple point here is that Calc AB is not required for a high school to be "quality." Many private schools do not offer Calc AB because they simply do not have enough students who need that offering. However, SPS does have more than enough students for whom Calc AB is simply a needed offering.
Being the messenger doesn't mean I'm putting down the students who attend those schools. That is a classic lawyer tactic to avoid addressing the issue, which in this case is the highly disparate quality of schools in Seattle and the SAP.
When students from Rainier Beach testify, I listen closely. I have been very impressed by the depth, quality and persistence of their testimony on behalf of their school. These students have repeatedly testified to the opposite of your statement. They have said that when people "put down" their school, they feel it personally. As such, I would invite you to consider that calling multiple schools second tier and describing students as forced into second tier schools is not the same things as creating a conversation about the "highly disparate quality of schools in Seattle and the SAP."
That second conversation in one that I am happy to have. There are many problems with the current SAP. There are many problems with how the enrollment department implements the current SAP. That said, the old pure choice system had even more problems.
I don't believe there is a perfect SAP. However, many issues you ascribe to the SAP are not SAP issues but budget issues and issues about how SPS decides to allocate limited funding and staffing at the building level. Changes to the SAP won't fix that.
Since there is an SAP that limits students (except HCC) to essentially be at a high school based on the family address, where's the justice here? If there are some neighborhood high schools that have enough offerings to take some parents out of the "pathway" then what about the ones that would never be considered because (let's just cut to the chase) they are not high quality enough? Their local students are stuck.
Here's the thing. The "justice" in it is that those local students are not likely to be "stuck." They didn't participate in HCC so likely don't need Calculus as sophomores, then 2nd year calculus and AP Stats in order to get 4 years of math in. The local high school generally provides a coherent, sequential pathway that works for the local population. It's really quite a simple concept to grasp. HCC students living in the Hale boundaries, however, need access to another school, since THEY would indeed be stuck if forced to go there. That's why we have pathways. They are a direct response to the need for higher level classes by a specific subset of students.
Is it possible that there are a few non-HCC students who are also on similar trajectories and need access to a school that has more advanced offerings? Probably. Not many, but likely some. In such cases they should be able to petition the district to let them choose a school that offers an appropriate course sequence. Or better yet, their guidance counselors should identify that gap when they are picking classes in the spring and they should work to help them get into an appropriate school if the student and family want that and don't want to have to go the Running Start route later instead. That should really be the goal--and expectation--everywhere: the opportunity to take 4 years worth of math, science, etc. without having to repeat a class and without being forced into Running Start. The level of courses offered in order to do that, however, may vary by school, regardless of "school quality."
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Which SPS high schools offer AP Calculus BC? I would only expect Garfield to offer that.
I know of several HCC qualified students that chose Hale over Roosevelt or Garfield or Ingraham. One achieved a perfect score on the ACT. Some families value inclusion. It doesn't make Hale a second tier school. It just makes it a different school.
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As to whether any high school can provide 4 yrs of math for such an advanced student, I do not believe so. That's why I mentioned Running Start. But since RS isn't an option until 11th grade, schools need to at least offer enough for someone taking Alg 1 in 6th to be able to take Calculus in 10th. That's the bare minimum if they disband pathways.
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