How Have Changes in School Assignments Affected You?
KUOW is asking this question at their Public Insight Network page to try to get feedback on this issue for a story.
So it has been a year now with enrollment starting soon for year 2 of the NSAP. What's it been like? Has your family split kids at two schools? Made a life at a new school? Any predictions for 3-5 years down the line? (I'm predicting less diversity at many north end schools.)
So it has been a year now with enrollment starting soon for year 2 of the NSAP. What's it been like? Has your family split kids at two schools? Made a life at a new school? Any predictions for 3-5 years down the line? (I'm predicting less diversity at many north end schools.)
Comments
They were never very diverse to begin with, so I don't see them becoming less diverse with the NSAP??
NE elementary schools have been over crowded for a long time. No families outside of the NE cluster were getting in prior to the NSAP, and they aren't getting in now. So these schools shouldn't be any less diverse.
There may have been a few spots open here and there in north cluster elementary schools but without transportation provided outside of the N cluster, not many south end or central area families chose these schools. The NSAP hasn't changed that, so I can't see these schools becoming less diverse either.
Eckstein and Whitman always filled with neighborhood kids. And Eckstein couldn't even accommodate all of the neighborhood kids. Nobody outside of the N and NE was getting in to either of these schools.
Roosevelt, and Ballard, same thing. Full with neighborhood kids, and long waitlists. Families who lived outside of these schools immediate neighborhoods were not getting in prior to the NSAP.
Ingraham and Hale haven't changed much either. Ingraham had 200 empty seats this year. Anybody, from any part of the city, who wanted to get in could have got in. So it wouldn't be any less diverse due to the NSAP either. Hale barely filled, but only because they did take so many students from outside the neighborhood as they always have. So Hale shouldn't be any less diverse either.
Hamilton would be the only school that is less diverse. The NSAP discontinued yellow bus service from the south end, and then APP was moved in. So yes, Hamilton is less diverse.
But what other schools are less diverse? I don't see it? If anything they may be more diverse if the district keeps its word and allows the 10% set aside seats for high schools.
(Hale was underenrolled because Hale wanted to be smaller. I think more kids might have gone there if they had opened it up more.)
I probably should go back and compare the numbers over the last 6+ years but I'd bet the numbers of non-white students have gone down.
I can't speak for the elementaries.
Thanks!
-Mary
Mom to a 3 year old, starting to think ahead to the joys of scool enrollment
I think that this was because of the racial tiebreaker. I think when SPS stopped using it because of the school desegregation case, diversity remained for a while, because if sibling effects. But, in time, this diversity filtered out of the system as the schools became fully enrolled based with the distance criterion.
(I can't speak to "programming", 'cause I do think there have been changes in SpEd, for example, that could decrease diversity in some schools -- for example, moving SpEd programs from highly-enrolled schools)
Otherwise, I'm with momster. The north end schools aren't very diverse, and weren't during the OSAP, because distance wasn't any less segregating than the NSAP's assignment schools. SPS did do calcs, too, and I don't think any real change in diversity was expected, except in a few schools.
I wish I could give you the direct link, but I believe that students who move are reassigned to the school that serves their new neighborhood (in the next school year -- they can stay out the current school year). They can only stay at the old school on a space-available basis, by applying as an out-of-area student. So your 1st grader would have to reapply to be able to stay in the school. For some schools, this may not be a problem, but for many of the popular schools, it would be.
I think diversity is looked at as an added benefit. It's great for a school to have it, but in and of itself, it is not enough to drive a families decision to send their kid to a school to get it.
I had the impression that Ingraham, as the only north-end high school with seats, was very popular with kids from the south end where high school choices were perceived as poor (i.e. Rainier Beach, Cleveland), but apparently that's not correct? Or is it? And why would that change with the NSAP, since IHS still has empty seats? All very confusing.
Our children were to be split up between 2 different schools. Two weeks after school began, we received a call letting us know our K student could transfer to our older child's school.
Our formerly chummy neighborhood and bus stop was mortally wounded by attendance area boundary changes. Waiting for the school bus became an exercise in nervous small talk and avoiding the elephant in the room.
We felt illegitimate for trying to get our youngest into our former attendance area school. Neighbors who lived a few tenths of a mile closer complained about the school's overcrowding and some even told us that if it happened to them, they would leave the school. (Thus telling us, in essence, we should leave.)
We got zero support from our school's principal. We found out about key sibling grandfathering issues through this blog or through the SPS website.
Although it wasn't the only reason we left Seattle, the overall chaos and lack of support we felt during this period was a key factor. We were convinced that new issues would arise and our time with SPS would be one giant roller coaster ride. We had had enough.
Interestingly, I occasionally check this blog to see what’s going on in the district. Perhaps I want validation that we did the right thing by leaving. Mostly, I’m hoping that things start to get genuinely better. I’m in a place now with very little school drama. It feels great, but after a couple of years of constantly struggling with school issues, I guess it’s hard to give up!
Former Seattleite
Ingraham has frequently been described as "the only well-performing south end high school" for just the reasons you describe. Historically it has drawn many students from the south end. It's too early to tell whether the NSAP, or the addition of IB at Sealth, or is it West Seattle?, has changed that.
If we could see the old dot maps, and then see a new dot map for where the students come from, that might help.
My sense is that Ingraham's 9th graders are a strong group of kids but I interact mostly Pre-IB families, which is at least a somewhat skewed sample.
Yes, I think that really is the goal. I also think that it's uniquely possible in Seattle. Why? I think there are many families who truly value diversity, who are willing to accept, and even welcome, 20,30, or even 40% free lunch populations into their schools. I also think that many schools in the district can remain below those levels, under the tipping points where people start to abandon their schools.
I also think there are a lot of good schools in Seattle, and I feel like I've seen the number increase (rather than decrease) over the years that I've followed the drama. For example, it looks like Ingraham, Franklin, and potentially even Cleveland might be coming into the fold of acceptable high schools.
I think the major issue that remains is not the quality of the system itself, but the quality of particular schools. I am sensitive to the worry that there's no good plan for addressing the problems at these schools.
My other major worry: funding. I think that the school system is going to have a prolonged period of very tight funding, and that there's going to be a significant constriction of what they can do. Resource limits always increase drama and unhappiness.
Last year the lottery admission to choice schools had the flaw that all kids who put the school ANYWHERE on their request forms (1st, 2nd, 3 choice) were put into the lottery. That means that a child who's family put a school as a third choice had the same chance as a family who put it down as their first choice. Seemingly unfair. Is it still working this way for next year’s enrollment?
When parents flee something is wrong with the leadership.
I believe much can be accomplished if District and school leadership encourage and allow for the community and parent involvement necessary to build great programs.
I think Joanna's observation about "wanting" diversity is true.
Mary, my understanding is that if you moved in the middle of the year your child could finish the year at the school. But then, for next year, you would have to apply to stay in.
Ingraham did have a fair number of south end kids both because it was perceived as better than what RBHS and Cleveland could offer AND because it was a long bus ride and parents felt secure knowing their kids had two bus trips in a day (and less time to be alone at home). I don't know exactly what will happen under the new APP plan; I suspect with the new addition and the APP/IB, the school will fill.
Abby, interesting you bring up the lottery issue. I had been in contact with a researcher at MIT who is looking at school choice. He was astonished how ahead of the curve SPS had been in using the Barnhart-Waldman amendment. The rest of the country is now starting to use such an amendment and he was surprised that now SPS got rid of it. He wanted to know why.
Momster, you must have missed it but the district rewrote the Open Choice seat plan. It's quite complex and depends on how full the school is. Garfield will definitely have no Open Choice seats (and maybe Roosevelt as well). They went back on their promise AND the NSAP they voted in.
Helen Schinske
OK ZB, I'll take the bait.
The School District's average of free and reduced lunch is about 41% (2009 numbers). In light of that, the idea that a family might be "willing to accept" a whopping 20% of such families at their school strikes me as an indication that those families are really all about window dressing in terms of diversity -- at least economic diversity. Give us a few lower income families, but don't drag us down to that District average please. It might mess up our PTA's ability to raise funds we use to support all those extras, if we have to ask the better-off families to donate more to subsidize those who can't give at all. It might mean that there are more kids who are struggling academically, because that's far more common in low income households, and that would bring down our overall test scores which would mean my kids are no longer going to a "good" school.
I actually think ZB's comments are right on. Middle and upper middle class people (myself included) really prefer to hang with their own kind. They select schools where they can continue to do so.
Last year the lottery admission to choice schools had the flaw that all kids who put the school ANYWHERE on their request forms (1st, 2nd, 3 choice) were put into the lottery. That means that a child who's family put a school as a third choice had the same chance as a family who put it down as their first choice. Seemingly unfair. Is it still working this way for next year’s enrollment?
...
It was announced last year that the system you prefer will take over this year. I haven't yet looked for a document that backs that now verifies this, but that was the plan.
BUT, what you speak of as a "flaw" is actually a feature. I'd be happy to discuss this more with you, but not during my work day. For background, search these archives for "Gale Shapley" (and because misspelling is common "Gale Shapely"), and see the documents on this page:
http://www.teriyakidonut.com/schools/
-- Elizabeth
I do recall someone being asked this specifically sometime in the last couple months. Yes, we will be off the VAX for enrollment this year and Yes no matter what (if the migration fails), the forward-thinking but misunderstood fairness algorithm will not be used.
Alas, too many meetings and too aging a brain, I cannot recall the exact circumstance for this Q/A. I think it was at the A&F Nov 10th meeting where there was a VAX migration update but that Q is not specified in the minutes. So I am corroboration but not proof.
Those things aren't happening for the 7th and 8th graders as far as I know, and some of those kids are grumbling a little that they don't have the same opportunities. The 6th grade parents are probably the ones that made these things happen. The 7th and 8th grade parents are spread out across the city and more diverse economically, etc. so I can see it not working the same for those grades.
This problem will go away in a couple of years when all three grades are all from the same geographic area.
- Just hearing student gripes
Of course, Ingraham had both the IB program and the smaller school environment last year as well (and the year before that). This isn't a result of the NSAP.
As world supplies of oil continue to decline (they have already peaked) we are going to have to come to terms with the fact that it simply doesn't make sense to put kids on busses when there is a walkable option to be had.
Sure, encourage kids to walk to school, and/or parents to walk their kids to school. A campaign would be great. But I am getting pretty weary of the stick method of school rerform.
For me knowing that my children would have a number of peers who were achieving and interested in school was more important than the income levels. Yes, statistically there is a relationship between FRL and achievement. Nonetheless, that would have been a sort of secondary attribute that I would have noted and perhaps only if I noted other problems at the school. If a school can offer opportunities for students to know themselves, develop their talents, and participate together in engaging activities that allow them to show what they can do and contribute. Children in poverty are as diverse in their talents as are any other group and sometimes seem to be placed in programs to address poverty rather than talent and this cheats the students. I know the issues are more complex.
Nonetheless, I think if a very good school community can be built among diverse socioeconomic groups if proud parents can be supported and all rally around common concerns. Often District and building leadership seem to have agendas beyond building a strong school community from the neighborhood. Neighborhood becomes especially important in the plan with the specific attendance areas.
Do only the poor count as "diverse"? To oversimplify, is my child having a more diverse experience than I am (as an adult) if, say, 40% of their peer group is poor, 40% in the next demographic, and practically no students from the professional or more "wealthy" demographic? Whereas the typical Seattle/US experience, say, is more like 20% poor, 40% middle and 40% professional or whatever you want to call it.
40% poor sounds segregated to me, not diverse. Would 80% poor be even more diverse? Where does the line cross???
The fact that the majority of children in Seattle live in the walk zone of at least one school of their grade level is not what I believe, it is SPS policy, according to their walk zone maps. If parents want to use their own resources driving their children to a school that SPS thinks is walkable, that at least is not a waste of taxpayer dollars that could be used for much more valuable ends than a taxi service for those who may not need it.
It wouldn't hurt the lazy parents to walk a mile or so, either, in many cases.
Unfortunately, in our area of West Seattle, walkability was destroyed by NSAP and the preceding closures. They didn't even appear to consider real life walk zones when coming up with this plan.
Northgate was also the designated school for homeless children in the north end. Not sure if it still is?
Doubt the NSAP will cause any dispersement of diversity - at least in these two schools cases.
Is it "diverse" if the school poverty rate is 2 times the city average? 3 times? 4 times? Is 80% poverty "diverse"? I think we have lost the dictionary meaning of "diversity".
True socio-economic diversity (and possibly related measures) would theoretically include children of Doctors, Lawyers, Technology workers, Teachers, Working poor, Sales people, etc. etc.
Is it "diverse" if the school poverty rate is 2 times the city average? 3 times? 4 times? Is 80% poverty "diverse"? I think we have lost the dictionary meaning of "diversity".
True socio-economic diversity (and possibly related measures) would theoretically include children of Doctors, Lawyers, Technology workers, Teachers, Working poor, Sales people, etc. etc.
Seattle, the city, is about 70% white and has a median household income of more than $70,000.
Seattle Public Schools, on the other hand, is about 40% White and about 44% FRE.
Neither of these strike me as a good benchmark for any school, let alone every school.
Instead, I think it would be good if a school's student demographics reflected the demographics of school-age children in the school's attendance area. That data isn't readily available, is it?
We can't very well expect attendance area schools in affluent neighborhoods to have up to 40% of their students FRE, now can we? And there's no basis for sneering at those communities for not being "diverse" enough, is there?
Likewise, we can't very well expect attendance area schools in low-income neighborhoods to have as few as 50% of their students FRE either.
The only schools that can be expected to meet these goals are The Center School, The NOVA Project, and STEM, as they are the only schools that recruit equitably citywide and provide equitable transportation as well.
If we had a grade-schooler, I believe Gatewood would be the assignment, which is appropriate, as it's about 3/4 of a mile away, but feeding Gatewood into Madison/WSHS still makes no sense.
Back to the original topic of diversity, all of the most expensive real estate was oddly assigned to West Seattle High/Madison (no matter how close or far away) while the projects, large apartment complexes, and less expensive areas (generally speaking) were assigned to Sealth/Denny.
It is almost as if the district was trying to purposefully segregate these schools.