Wilson-Pacific; a New Wrinkle
I recently wrote to the Board with some of the bigger ideas that I have heard here and percolated up from the Growth Boundary meetings. Here's what I told them about Wilson-Pacific:
What I hear from parents is that they do NOT want to share their valuable neighborhood space with any program if they don't have to. APP is NOT a beloved program and it will not be welcomed with open arms anywhere in the N/NE. Why set up a situation like that especially if it may end up that the program might need to be exited?
I honestly believe the right course is to leave APP elementary North at Lincoln. Permanently. (Clearly, not the whole building but it sets up great possibilities.) You could even have an APP 1-8 there and believe me, it would make many people (pro and con APP) happy.
But what about Lincoln as a high school? Look, it is really close to Roosevelt already, has virtually no field space and needs massive updates.
So the solution looks to be that Wilson-Pacific site - with its huge fields - becomes a middle school and next to that, a high school. It's a more central location for a high school and the room is there.
Then, I see this idea from Kate Martin:
Seattle Public Schools is going to need another high school. It would be great to build on the Licton Springs Community Schools campus concept and grab the North Precinct SPD facility as they are now planning a move up onto Aurora. Adjacency of a high school to the community college and to the elementary and middle schools planned for the Wilson Pacific site would be fantastic.
I have to say - there's a thought. A high school right next to a community college.
I know what you're thinking - how could the district buy this? With what money? Well, since it is City property and we're talking a school, I think the right deal could be set up (maybe with state money) and it could happen.
Thoughts?
What I hear from parents is that they do NOT want to share their valuable neighborhood space with any program if they don't have to. APP is NOT a beloved program and it will not be welcomed with open arms anywhere in the N/NE. Why set up a situation like that especially if it may end up that the program might need to be exited?
I honestly believe the right course is to leave APP elementary North at Lincoln. Permanently. (Clearly, not the whole building but it sets up great possibilities.) You could even have an APP 1-8 there and believe me, it would make many people (pro and con APP) happy.
But what about Lincoln as a high school? Look, it is really close to Roosevelt already, has virtually no field space and needs massive updates.
So the solution looks to be that Wilson-Pacific site - with its huge fields - becomes a middle school and next to that, a high school. It's a more central location for a high school and the room is there.
Then, I see this idea from Kate Martin:
Seattle Public Schools is going to need another high school. It would be great to build on the Licton Springs Community Schools campus concept and grab the North Precinct SPD facility as they are now planning a move up onto Aurora. Adjacency of a high school to the community college and to the elementary and middle schools planned for the Wilson Pacific site would be fantastic.
I have to say - there's a thought. A high school right next to a community college.
I know what you're thinking - how could the district buy this? With what money? Well, since it is City property and we're talking a school, I think the right deal could be set up (maybe with state money) and it could happen.
Thoughts?
Comments
What would the time frame be on the SPD site? Why not build a WP middle school and high school (since those seems to be most needed RIGHT NOW) at WP and work on getting the land from SPD site and see what is most needed when that transaction happens? How big is the SPD site? Big enough for a high school with fields?
I live about four blocks from there, and I'd be perfectly happy to see that happen, if it makes sense, but until I know what land we're talking about I can't make any sense of it. (The W-P site, of course, I DO know quite well.)
Trying to co-locate and elementary program and a middle school program has been extremely challenging. While the campus has quite a bit of space, elementary schools and secondary schools use space very differently. Therefore designing a site plan for 2,000 students over grade bands that extends from very little, possible Pre-K students to full size humans is very space intensive and therefore not space efficient.
However, if the campus were all secondary education, it would be easier to plan the campus and preserve a full size sports field. Moreover, the current plan calls to leave Wilson Pacific as a "practice field" for Lincoln which is just not the same as a full athletic field. (smaller, no lights, no stadium seating)
Folks may be extremely disappointed that a field designed for use for elementary and middle school students is not the same type of field that would be designed for a comprehensive high school.
As side benefit is that Wilson Pacific has much better bus access being located near Aurora and near a community college. I doubt anyone has examined the transit options for getting high school students to Lincoln the likely service areas.
BEX IV allocated funds for both a new elementary school and for restoring Lincoln as a high school. Most likely building a new high school on fresh flat piece of property will be less expensive than restoring Lincoln. At least SPS has said in the past that new construction is less expensive than restorations.
I am certain that a change this big is is a bit much late in the process. However, we haven't gotten any updated enrollment projections yet. And if the high schools are all full now, it is very likely that the updated projections will show a very different picture.
QA kids would have a straight shot up Aurora to W-P. Lincoln, not so much.
Good point on costs - people think renovation is less than a new building and it's not true.
Well, the district staff last night said the boundaries aren't final. The BEX money for World School (in BEX III) disappeared and then reappeared.
Stranger things have happened and I'm hoping we see some REAL questions and REAL political courage from the Board (because I'm not seeing it from the Superintendent).
Not advocating for or against, just a Metro fan!
Making Lincoln the site for all of north-end 1-8 APP is less disruptive than any other option. 1-5 just stays there and it can roll up in three years or go straight to 6-8 quickly. Kids from 1-8 all ride the same buses saving money on transportation.
1-8 APP at Lincoln gets middle school APP students out of Hamilton and frees up badly needed space that much sooner.
APP 1-8 at Lincoln saves the long schlep to Olympic Hills and Jane Addams and allows that capacity to go to attendance area students - which saves on transportation costs and allows general education north-end families a better chance at a nearby school.
It would mean that all of the new Wilson-Pacific middle school and Jane Addams middle school is available for general education neighborhood students.
It brings all of the final capacity count online that much sooner, accelerating BEX IV projects all over the city.
It's a good idea. Instead of 1-8 APP at Wilson Pacific and a high school at Lincoln, it's 1-8 APP at Lincoln and a high school and a middle school at Wilson-Pacific. A net gain.
We need more than 1,600 high school seats. How large a high school could we build at W-P? Should we super-size it? How about an option high school at Marshall once WPMS opens?
Why wasn't APP asking for the Lincoln building during the BEX IV meetings? Seems that would have been the time to do it.
-- Marceline
Would Lincoln need a remodel to become a 1-8 school?
J
Marceline, I think APP didn't ask because it wasn't their idea. Please don't say they are saying this - a lot of other people thought of this.
Again, Lincoln is really close to Roosevelt. We need to spread these buildings out.
W-P might be better purposed as a MS & HS than what is currently proposed (and, frankly, would benefit my family more), but Lincoln should not be an elementary school for the long term.
Krab
Still find the idea promising though.
J
1. Where do you put the North Precinct if you put the high school on top of it? The lack of open property in the north is everyone's problem, not just SPS. I can't think of any obvious places within a mile of Licton Springs that would work.
2. I don't think SPD would be willing to lose such a central location.
3. A high school has a much larger footprint than an elementary school, so more of those fields would be wiped out by physical plant. And sports fields are very, very dear -- remember, that was a fundamental argument against the new Thornton Creek building.
4. You're going to put a ~1500 person high school next to a 1000 student high school. Blanchet is already a nightmare to drive around during the school rush. 85th is a mess.
5. The BEX IV plan was for a full-on renovation of Lincoln, which desperately needs it. Build W-P HS and you can't renovate Lincoln. The numbers just don't add up. At least I can't get them to.
I support centralizing APP in W-P and not splitting them with Oly Hills and Jane Addams. Sticking a high school there, though, seems a bridge too far.
Lincoln to Roosevelt: 2.5 miles
W-P to Roosevelt: 2.5 miles
Um.
The parking lot is across the one available lane for bus traffic.
There are no bathrooms on the same floor as the cafeteria. I know that sounds silly, but sending a first grader, without supervision, through the building to find a bathroom, just doesn't work. (And neither does finding or paying for additional staff to ferry them.)
Getting little legs down the large number of stairs to the existing play spaces (let alone one in the parking lot) for the quantity of allotted recess time is almost impossible.
The building was designed for adult-sized people with teenage needs... Not 6-12 year olds.
Krab
I don't know if it will fly, but I am really for it.
-sleeper
@dylanw SPD has already announced their plan to build a new precinct on the SE corner of Aurora and 125th.
Northend Mama
They are already putting two buildings on the Wilson Pacific campus (an elementary and a middle school). The footprint for a middle and high school would be the same footprint and actually preserve more field space.
The field planned for the elementary use would not be the same as a field planned for high school use.
Blanchet is not "next" to Wilson-Pacific. It's blocks away and W-P has a lot more area for buses than Blanchet (I used to live right there.)
No, you would build the middle/high school at W-P and not do the total thing to Lincoln. BUT Lincoln could be revamped for elementary kids.
Even if the distance is the same, getting there is better at W-P than Lincoln.
This idea of the North Precinct use was just floated.
It's called brainstorming.
If your argument is that it shouldn't be a high-school because it doesn't have athletic fields and is therefore "not normal," than I would say it is closer to a normal high school experience than elementary. But I went to a middle school and high school without fields.
Krab
So then why didn't the a-lot-of-other-people ask for the Lincoln building for APP when the BEX IV meetings were happening? It was announced pretty early on that Lincoln was to be reopened as a high school. (And if they're not the ones asking, does APP even want to stay at Lincoln in the long term?)
I'm guessing this proposal is only coming up now because we only recently learned that the district plans to co-locate APP with a neighborhood school. I do agree that APP should have their own dedicated building. Just feeling a disappointed that it might happen at the expense of the high school we were hoping for ("normal" or otherwise).
-- Marceline
We are becoming concerned about high school seats - they're going to be needed soon. A high school at WP could be completed earlier than the planned Lincoln renovation. It's got nothing to do with APP.
Krab, you're not going to do APP any favors by crying wolf over 7 year olds not being able to find their own way to/from the bathroom when it's on a different floor from the cafeteria. When I was that age, I was walking 1/2 a mile to/from school with the 2 kids on my block without adult supervision. Somehow we managed to find the bathrooms at school, too.
Often children rise to the occasion when they realize we expect them to be able to handle increased responsibility, and I'd expect this to be even more so of APP kids. Some kids at my daughter's school were making their own way home when they were in 1st grade, so I'm sure APP 1st graders can find a bathroom in a timely manner if they put their minds to it.
(Note: I am not in any way anti-APP. My school age kid is eligible APP, though not enrolled in the program as our school is meeting her needs).
--flibbertigibbet
Capacity of Lincoln as 1-8 APP: Lincoln could house the APP elem. with space left for a small co-tenant (not a neighborhood school, but a special program), but it could NOT fit APP 1-8, as Charlie has suggested. 600 APP elem. plus 800 - 900 MS = 1400 - 1500 kids, many at the lower kids/per class utilization of elem. grades. Come one Charlie, do the math. They cannot fit together in Lincoln. So the APP MS has to go somewhere else anyway.
Lincoln's appropriateness for elem kids:
Responding to all the various people who say Lincoln's not fit for elem students: What? What are you talking about? Call the place Hogwarts, put up a few holographic portraits, and you're good.
Seriously, a playground is do-able ... if the building's actually given over to APP, and the district isn't putting a lot of requirements on the space to keep it "interim" or "high school ready." The buses could be either curved around a playscape -- great idea, by the way. Or like at most of the elem. schools in this city, they could install a "No Parking Bus Zone" on both streets and ... use it for buses! East bound buses could park on north-one way Woodlawn to make a right onto 45th, and west bound buses could park heading south on Interlake to make right and right again onto Stoneway. Frankly, better than current system where all buses can't fit in the parking lot, and have to wait a second turn to load, and many buses have to make lefts onto 45th (have you TRIED that?)
[UPDATE: Okay, I got the door to curb side wrong on that analysis... so the city would have to change the one-way directions which are only for those single blocks anyway, not for the rest of the street, to let buses park with their doors at the curbs - this is completely doable b/c the one-way is only there based around the school]
Holy cow, there's four gyms (2 free standing, 2 more gorgeous gyms in the basement through the off limits area past the wall of mirrors, though a couple sets of auto-locking doors, down some unlit concrete stairwell ... and there's a suspended aerial track or maybe velodrome, don't know what it was b/c it's too weird -- totally cool death trap. But seriously, there's some fun stuff down in the off limits parts). They could build an indoor playground in the basement if they were allowed to alter the building!
And for cafeterias, Lincoln's is crummy, no question, but it's still WAY better than BF Day's or Greenlake's (although the latter is appropriately getting a new cafeteria. The former is merely getting a lot more kids).
Is the inappropriate for little kids comment about the steps? Elem. age kids go up and down and up and down up steps ALL THE TIME in other historic buildings - Greenwood, BF Day, Loyal Heights, etc. Steps are good for them. One more elevator would be nice, and could perhaps be stuck on the building near one of the back doors, but steps are not a reason to declare the school unfit for little kids. The administration has chosen to house the fifth and 1st graders on the main floor - they could move the big kids up top if they wanted too. If the building was renovated, perhaps they could occupy more of the main floor, and have fewer kids up high. Who knows.
I have seen no reason here or in other blogs that justifies stating that Lincoln is not fit for little kids. The building is larger, yes, but not particularly different than several other historic buildings used for elem. schools.
Signed: APP@Hogwarts
Anonymous said...
Responding to a couple points:
Capacity of Lincoln as 1-8 APP: Lincoln could house the APP elem. with space left for a small co-tenant (not a neighborhood school, but a special program), but it could NOT fit APP 1-8, as Charlie has suggested. 600 APP elem. plus 800 - 900 MS = 1400 - 1500 kids, many at the lower kids/per class utilization of elem. grades. Come one Charlie, do the math. They cannot fit together in Lincoln. So the APP MS has to go somewhere else anyway.
Lincoln's appropriateness for elem kids:
Responding to all the various people who say Lincoln's not fit for elem students: What? What are you talking about? Call the place Hogwarts, put up a few holographic portraits, and you're good.
Seriously, a playground is do-able ... if the building's actually given over to APP, and the district isn't putting a lot of requirements on the space to keep it "interim" or "high school ready." The buses could be either curved around a playscape -- great idea, by the way. Or like at most of the elem. schools in this city, they could install a "No Parking Bus Zone" on both streets and ... use it for buses! East bound buses could park on north-one way Woodlawn to make a right onto 45th, and west bound buses could park heading south on Interlake to make right and right again onto Stoneway. Frankly, better than current system where all buses can't fit in the parking lot, and have to wait a second turn to load, and many buses have to make lefts onto 45th (have you TRIED that?)
Holy cow, there's four gyms (2 free standing, 2 more gorgeous gyms in the basement through the off limits area past the wall of mirrors, though a couple sets of auto-locking doors, down some unlit concrete stairwell ... and there's a suspended aerial track or maybe velodrome, don't know what it was b/c it's too weird -- totally cool death trap. But seriously, there's some fun stuff down in the off limits parts). They could build an indoor playground in the basement if they were allowed to alter the building!
And for cafeterias, Lincoln's is crummy, no question, but it's still WAY better than BF Day's or Greenlake's (although the latter is appropriately getting a new cafeteria. The former is merely getting a lot more kids).
Is the inappropriate for little kids comment about the steps? Elem. age kids go up and down and up and down up steps ALL THE TIME in other historic buildings - Greenwood, BF Day, Loyal Heights, etc. Steps are good for them. One more elevator would be nice, and could perhaps be stuck on the building near one of the back doors, but steps are not a reason to declare the school unfit for little kids. The administration has chosen to house the fifth and 1st graders on the main floor - they could move the big kids up top if they wanted too. If the building was renovated, perhaps they could occupy more of the main floor, and have fewer kids up high. Who knows.
I have seen no reason here or in other blogs that justifies stating that Lincoln is not fit for little kids. The building is larger, yes, but not particularly different than several other historic buildings used for elem. schools.
-------
-flibbertigibbet
Incidentally I went to a school v. much like Hogwarts: old Victorian mansion converted into a school, with turrets, 4 - 5 floors, depending on which part of the building you were in, hidden staircases, long, winding corridors and rumors (among the boarders) of ghosts. Naturally, it was a long walk up/down multiple stairs/corridors to the bathrooms (and girls & boys were at opposite ends of the school), and yet somehow kids as young as 5 managed to find them on a daily basis, without supervision. As I said in my earlier post, kids rise to the occasion.
-flibbertigibbet
While, I generally despise the phrase, "the situation is evolving," in this case, the situation really is evolving.
Buildings are expensive and generations have to live with the decisions regarding opening and closing and selling buildings. Buildings are typically planned for 50-100 years and therefore decisions regarding new buildings are usually based on the most conservative data.
The bulk of BEX planning was based on projections based on 2011 enrollment information. When the projections were updated with 2012 information and another additional 1500 students. It became clear that a few items went from "might need" to "desperately" need.
Most of these boundary plans are based on enrollment projections based on 2012 enrollment information, which showed that high capacity was "becoming an issue." It is pretty reasonable to presume that when the projections are updated based on the actual 2013 enrollment, it will become clear that high school capacity is a much bigger deal than it was based on 2012 enrollment data.
I think this is a good idea because my best guess is that we are going to need high school relief much sooner than the BEX plan but the evidence will arrive soon. The new computer system this year has delayed the updated enrollment information.
The law makes it that way, the district has treated it that way in the past and that we are having these discussions (and apparently the Board is listening) means the BEX list can be modified.
My basic pleas (so far) to the Board:
- rethink Wilson-Pacific
- rethink World School (if only to find them a truly permanent home which I don't believe, in the long run, TT Minor is) - but that might mean leased space a la Center School.
- rethink those Beacon Hill walk zones (or reexamine them) and any others that show early signs of problems. That so many of them affect Title One schools is troubling.
I think with all the people working on this problem we have chances to come up with a lot of win-win solutions.
-sleeper
When are the new updated enrollment data expected?
Thanks
You consider APP a legitimate Option School?
I believe 98% of students have no chance to attend.
Heritage is culturally focused.
Another option that is not an option for the general population.
It is going to be expensive to make this a high school. The whole thing is just a cobbled together network of additions with a variety of components from every decade. That makes the Wilson Pacific idea look even better.
We want our high school back.
That is all.
Sincerely, "Resident"
A clear cultural connection to the land is a very powerful argument.
HP
As I posted yesterday, readers will be surprised how entrenched and accepted -by many current school parents!who looked forward to this tradition for their own students this is. The vibe coming from a significant section of Garfield community today is MYOB. Yes, families are angry with Mr. Howard for assuming authority on non-school premises,as opposed to being angry with the students. Students who don't participate in froshing are defending those who do.
Can forces outside the school force a change? I have doubts given the tolerance in much of the community itself - both kid and adult who are saying Chillax.
Also, the district official response seemed pretty tepid. Anyone notice? "School district spokeswoman Teresa Wippel called it a “tradition” among the school’s students, one the school is continuing to work to stamp out."
"Been There"
I think the point was that each middle school attendance area has to have an option school. If Wilson Pacific Middle School were to be all-APP, it would not have an attendance area. (It would be a service school I believe - but definitely not an option school.)
Regarding the placement of the Indian Heritage School/Program on the Licton Springs site, as you mentioned "a clear cultural connection to the land is a powerful argument." Hopefully this connection will be respected and honored.
The springs served as a location for spiritual gatherings for the Duwamish peoples where they would gather annually. An Indian friend shared with me recently that she still visits the springs for their healing powers.
There is an excellent article posted by Matt Remle in Lastrealindians.com-sacred-rites of saving licton springs" which discusses the District's plans concerning Licton Springs and the Indian Heritage Program/School.
Thank you for your interest.
I understand where you are coming from but consider other neighborhoods as well.
I encourage you to visit families in this area and on Queen Anne who still look at the sold off building with anger. To be told that all bets are off and the kids are headed for Wilson Pacific would be taken very hard.
We are considering other neighborhoods. Wilson Pacific should be redeveloped, but not as a replacement for Lincoln.
Sincerely, "Resident"
-sleeper
Chris S.
chris S.
I have long advocated and told the story of how losing QA High was one of the worst mistakes this district ever made. I just told a tableful of Coe parents this at the Meany meeting.
Chris S., yes, that's pretty much the situation.
Another "resident"
I'd also be more than fine with my kids going to a high school at WP. It's straight shot up the 16 from Lincoln (and much of Wallingford) to WP.
With different programs like IB, BioTech, etc., it's not also clear whether my kids would prefer the closest high school or not. I'm much more concerned about capacity and choice than location.
J
Like Kellie at 5:26 pm and 5:30
like Mellissa
Like Charlie Mas EXCEPT that I don't think it should be a 1-8. APP kids need to go off to middle school too. Besides, the projections would have it outgrow Lincoln pretty quickly with a 1-8.
double like Julie's comment about Lincoln not being the greatest building but a much better alternative to being shuffled around every few years.
triple like sleepers positive attitude and great ideas for solutions on how we can spruce up the building.
but...dislike "I don't think Lincoln makes for a "normal" elementary school experience -- and IMO makes for a difficult experience."
Hold on one minute. How, then, is it ok to "temporarily" locate 600 elementary school kids (and by temporarily I mean for 6 years!) in this building?
I don't get it. It is some how ok to shove these kids into a building that is oversized "temporarily" but when it is suggest to make it their actual school for the long term it is a "difficult" experience.
What is really difficult is that these kids keep getting punted to new locations every few years, and we are squatting in a building that we can't really make any improvements to because it isn't ours.
As a brand spanking new parent in this district with a first grader at Lincoln, I personally would much prefer for the building to become ours permanently, and let the WP site be a middle school and high school. It is a much better alternative for SOOOOOO many reasons, and the ONLY draw back I see is that the building isn't ideal. But it is standing, and it isn't filled with mold and the high ceilings are kind of nice.
Yes it is a funky space. My daughter has the upper locker and she can barely open it. Her rain coat has been there since the first day of school when I hung it up for her because she can't reach it and keep forgetting to ask her teacher to help her get it down.
Reality check: There is a real lack of buildings in the district.
APP will already be bursting out of WP elementary before it even opens.
We need a high school to come on line sooner.
What are the priorities?
ok, rant over.
Eden
Eden
The reality is that come 2017 APP will not fit in the WP elementary building. And we need will need more high school space.
Eden
Number one (with a rocket) - we have almost zero inventory and cannot build fast enough.
watching&waiting
Meeting Attendee
Thanks,
TC
My guess is that it will discussed at the executive committee meeting on October 9th. I hope the updated presentation will be available online before the meeting.
sandi kurtz