Later Start Times for Middle/High Schools Group to Meet
Our group will hold a meeting on Monday 5/14 at 5 pm at the Wayward Coffee House at 65th and Roosevelt (parking available off the alley of Roosevelt Court just west of the coffee house). Our plan is to prepare a presentation to make to the School Board at the 5/16 meeting. We hope to get a speaking slot in order to present our petition.
We are teachers, parents, and sleep experts who want to see a transportation and school start times that put student's needs first! Please join us.
Here's a link to our petition.
We are teachers, parents, and sleep experts who want to see a transportation and school start times that put student's needs first! Please join us.
Here's a link to our petition.
Comments
I know my own to-be middle schooler has sports schedules that would be incompatible with school end times of 4+ o'clock (especially combined with homework).
Our current schedules do mean leaving for school at 7:30 AM, and nothing gets done in the morning. In the afternoon, are several sports, other activities, and homework.
I don't have a strong opinion, and I think that different interests will inevitably have to balanced (sports should trump other needs). But I hope that you have someone with practical experience with after school extra-curriculars participating.
(It can't be me -- we don't use the school busses)
(zb)
-skeptical
Our kid is handling the 7:50am start time ok this year - but the thought of moving that to 7:30am seems crazy to me. He gets yellow bus this year - but won't next year (metro) so that will likely add a bit of extra time to his morning routine so we are talking about leaving the house around 6:45am (which is not as bad as a lot of people will have it who live further from their school).
However, being able to come home at 2:40pm and do homework before heading off to sports practices/games really helps him to have the evenings free and not have to stay up too late to get homework done after sports.
Ugh - my choice would be to leave it close to where it is now or move it slightly later - but not excited about a 4pm release time.
I think that when you say "sports should trump other needs" you are saying that some people may have the opinion that sports are more important than other after school activities such as music, drama, etc. But I think that we can all agree that ACADEMICS should trump other needs including bus/bell times and after school activities. The simple solution is instead of school from 8-2:30 we change to 8:30-3 or 9-3:30. Sports and other activities can start at 3:30 instead of 2:30. The benefits of improved academic performance and test scores (due to increased morning sleep time for teenagers) far outweigh any estimated increase in transportation cost.
- RB 1986
Wondering
Other school districts have late starts for High Schools, we don't have to reinvent the wheel. There is a thread about this on College Confidential if you want to read through more stories. As far as I can see, Districts with late starts still somehow manage to field sports teams.
More close to home, my kids get up and get to school and function, but they have lots of stories about kids falling asleep in class, or just not showing up until third period. Even my kids, who don't do a huge number of activities and get sent to bed at a reasonable hour admit to dosing through first period and often don't eat breakfast because they just can't stomach it at 7 a.m.
I'm starting to wonder why we don't just cancel all bus service except for students with special needs. That's what the neighborhood schools were about, it would save a lot of money, and it would kill this problem outright.
But, neighborhood schools are close enough to walk or bike. If they're not, when we redraw boundaries, we should make it so they are. I could see providing transportation for kids more than 1.5 (or 2?) miles from school but in the attendance area as a transitional thing. Crossing guards at dangerous intersections have to be cheaper than busses.
Once we do that, then we can schedule school based the needs of students, rather than logistics for minimizing the cost of bussing.
-skeptical
I saw this in the comments on the petition site last night... helped put the cost in perspective. (
"$1,000,000 (savings per year) divided by 47,000 (number of SPS students) = $21.28 savings per student per year divided by 180 (number of school days per year) = less than 12 cents saved per student per day. Not much of a payoff."
katie
rara avis, early bird
(zb)
Clin Med Insights Circ Respir Pulm Med. 2011; 5: 71–79.
Published online 2011 October 20. doi: 10.4137/CCRPM.S7955
PMCID: PMC3212860
Sleep Insufficiency, Sleep Health Problems and Performance in High School Students
Xue Ming,1 Rebecca Koransky,2,3 Victor Kang,2,4 Sarah Buchman,2,3 Christina E. Sarris,2,3 and George C. Wagner5
Sleep. 2009 March 1; 32(3): 334–341.
PMCID: PMC2647787
Evaluation of a School-Based Intervention for Adolescent Sleep Problems
Lynette Moseley, M Psyc (Clin) and Michael Gradisar, PhD
J Pediatr. 2009 March ; 154(3): 426–430.e1. doi:10.1016/j.jpeds.2008.08.035.
Sociodemographic and behavioral predictors of bed time and
wake time among U.S. adolescents aged 15–17 years
Kristen L. Knutson, PhD1 and Diane S. Lauderdale, PhD2
The Impact of School Daily Schedule on Adolescent Sleep
Pediatrics 2005;115;1555
Dubocovich
Martha Hansen, Imke Janssen, Adam Schiff, Phyllis C. Zee and Margarita L
Pediatrics 2005;115;1555
(zb)
I did not find such a number for facebook time (for example, it's quite possible that an hour more of facebook time also reduces sleep by 25 minutes) and that the two are pretty much trade-offs for each other. They might not be, though both might influence sleep. But even if facebook was a direct tradeoff, schools and society controls the start time of schools, and we can't control facebook time. If the consequence of earlier start times will be increased drop outs, decreased attendance, decreased performance and increased car crashes, that's something we need to deal with at the level that we have control.
(and, I say this as someone who also likes having the afternoon block of time and who thinks that it's a parent's job to control screen time and set bedtimes, even for adolescents).
(zb)
I did not find such a number for facebook time (for example, it's quite possible that an hour more of facebook time also reduces sleep by 25 minutes) and that the two are pretty much trade-offs for each other. They might not be, though both might influence sleep. But even if facebook was a direct tradeoff, schools and society controls the start time of schools, and we can't control facebook time. If the consequence of earlier start times will be increased drop outs, decreased attendance, decreased performance and increased car crashes, that's something we need to deal with at the level that we have control.
(and, I say this as someone who also likes having the afternoon block of time and who thinks that it's a parent's job to control screen time and set bedtimes, even for adolescents).
(zb)
The overview says, in part:
Two Minneapolis-area school districts decided to shift secondary school start times to 8:30 a.m. or later based on emerging medical research showing adolescents have a natural sleep pattern that leads to a late-to-bed, late-to-rise cycle. Medical researchers found this cycle is part of the maturation of the endocrine system. From the onset of puberty until late teen years, the brain chemical melatonin, which is responsible for sleepiness, is secreted from approximately 11 p.m. until approximately 8 a.m., nine hours later. This secretion is based on human circadian rhythms and is rather fixed. In other words, typical youth are not able to fall asleep much before 11 p.m. and their brains will remain in sleep mode until about 8 a.m., regardless of what time they go to bed.
....initially Edina parents were concerned about the effect of later starts on such logistical issues as busing, athletics, and child care for younger students. But at the end of the first year of implementation, 92 percent of respondents on a survey for Edina high school parents indicated that they preferred the later start times.
Additional data from the study done in Minneapolis schools showed that there was a significant reduction in school dropout rates, less depression, and students reported earning higher grades.
Teens need to get themselves to bed on time, so they can do well in school.
-skeptical
SRA
There is this study too
Later Start Time Might Be Boon for Test Scores, Study Finds
http://www.educationnews.org/k-12-schools/later-start-time-might-be-boon-for-test-scores-study-finds/
http://educationnext.org/do-schools-begin-too-early/
katie
I can't seem to load anything from The National Sleep Foundation (which is quoted on several sites I've seen), maybe they have closed down? Here's a Stanford University site that links to lots of (old) research and articles(I haven't followed any of those.)
Done for now!
I agree that education on better sleep habits is a good thing, but in the Mosely study, overall, the education increased knowledge but didn't result in better sleeping. In fact, the conclusion of the study (though written in mealy-mouthed language) is that sleep information is insufficient to change sleep behavior, and other methods will be necessary.
(zb)
Oh, and to ignore the scientific debate, and talk about transportation, I think they need to go back to drawing boards on this one. As someone else said, maybe 3 tiers of bus routes can't work for Seattle, given traffic and other constraints.
I do agree with the questioning of 7:30 start times for young kids -- most of the data is on adolescents, but that doesn't mean that 7:30 start time don't disrupt the learning in younger children as well (just that it hasn't been well studied).
Oops, that was me, zb
"In 1999 North Clackamas School District in Oregon changed its high school hours from 7:30 a.m. - 2:20 p.m. to 8:45 a.m. - 3:20 p.m. after high school principals had been recommending a later start for a decade and the district had studied the proposed change for a year. The issue was that high school students simply were not awake for early morning classes because they needed more sleep. To offset the later high school start time, the elementary schools started earlier. The transportation issue was settled by interchanging the high school bus route times and the elementary school bus route times. There was concern that the younger children would have to wait for the bus in the dark during the winter, but no problems occurred. The only real problem that occurred was that, in order to meet long-distance athletic competition schedules, sometimes students would have to leave classes early. The benefits, however, were improved attendance and an improved GPA in the first period classes for high school students. The result is that everyone likes the change--the students, the parents and the community--and the district has kept those hours."
To be at this point is absolutely ridiculous. Who screwed up so badly that the transportation issue got to this point?...Yes, name names. Who is in charge? Enfield is on her way out but is still collecting a very solid paycheck. Why did the transportation guy bail?
The school board simply does not owe any allegiance to those with such complete incompetence.
While this fiasco goes on, the teachers of your children are in the process of being evaluated as innovative, proficient, basic or unsatisfactory.
With one sweep, the district could get rid of MAP and save a small fortune. It could cancel the Gates grant. It could get rid of the double standard that is causing the performance of teachers to get picked over with a fine toothed comb, while the rest of the district should be evaluated as beyond repair and in need of complete transformation.
You cannot have a functioning school district when one link is over-evaluated by insidious means, while the administration can continue to produce such rubbish and emerge with their six figure salaries intact.
Bravo to the community for stepping in to clean up the wreck. But c'mon! Where's the justice?
--enough already and then some
"As parents, we propose an alternative system. Under the proposed system, all schools would be divided into two tiers of bus arrival times. The first tier would serve only K-5 elementary students, and would have a target arrival time of 8:00am. The second tier would serve all remaining elementary schools plus K-8, middle, and high schools, and would have a target arrival time of 9:00am. Departure times from schools would be approximately 2:35pm for the first tier and and 3:35pm (elementary) or 3:55pm (secondary) for the second tier."
Though the petition itself does not expressly address K-5 or K-8 start times, I believe the intent of the 2-tier alternative is so NO school starts at 7:30 - this is not an attempt to pick WHICH schools start at 7:30.
school start time studies
Other research is available at the national sleep foundation website which has been down this afternoon.
Later start times for adolescents decrease tardiness, decrease absenteeism, decrease school nurse visits, increase homework completion rates, improve academic performance, decrease teen car accidents. Also studies at the sleep foundation website show evidence that moving school start times later increases participation in after school sports and improves team athletic performance.
-high school parent
No Common Sense at JSCEE
1. It wasn't "staff" who came up with the 3 tier idea - it was 2 people, who came from small districts using 3 tiers and refused to listen to line staff input on why the 3 tier system was neither prudent nor practical for Seattle.
2. The "transportation guy" didn't "bail" - he was in fact, shown the door. Admin will not admit to which of the rumored methods actually happened - the party line is that he was RIF'd (during spring break no less). Staff, who had not one but 2 no confidence votes against "the guy" in last 3 years, believe he was given a choice - resign or be fired. It had zero to do with his family tragedy and everything to do with his being over his head and extremely uncommunicative.
3. From the moment "the guy" was brought on board, he rarely spoke to any of staff. He was infamous for not attending meetings, not readind and/or answering his email and could not read a spreadsheet to save his life.
There are good people in that dept, people who have cared and been trying, in every way possible to get things back on track. I am sick to death of them being smeared with a tar & feather brush, when those 2 people, and those 2 people alone are responsible for this mess.
end of rant
http://www.schooltube.com/video/7d15ef8909e00ad4032d/Start-and-End-Times-Proposal
Love the clear presentation of the problem, the transparent thought process and community engagement. His plan calls for flex-time for high school students, elementary school students start at 8:30, middle school starts at around 9:15.
I'm not surprised that people in Transportation thought that this was a bad idea. However, it can only be called a staff proposal, since the staff brought it forward to the Board for review. The people in charge who reviewed and approved it may not represent the opinions and beliefs of the staff under them, but it's still a staff proposal.
(zb)
to access the National Library of Medicine. In the search box write "school start times". Use quotations to get that phrase. You will find a number of research articles finding a strong correlation between earlier school start times and disrupted sleep patterns, poor school performance and even automobile accidents.
Unless you are a member (student/faculty/staff) of a University you may not be able to access the articles but I am and have sent some of them to the school board.
Rather than trying to work with the 3 tier system, let's push for a return to the 2 tier system. An 8:05 start for high schools and middle schools worked. A 9:05 start for elementaries worked.
-stop the insanity
-please, stop the insanity SPS
--------------------------
Anonymous said...
I'm a senior this year, stumbling on to this I have to say that middle and high school needs to start later. I go to bed at 9:30 every night because if i don't i'm not going to get up on time the next morning. It doesnt even feel right going to bed that early, or waking up that early the next day. I dont believe any student wants to get up at 6:30 every morning, with our sleep patterns thats the equivalent of getting up at 5 for you. The argument is that there are extracurricular activities that need to happen, Ive been in football and track and i can tell you that there's plenty of room to push them back. Just do them a favor and support it.
I love to hear from students.
- student/athlete
-skeptical
-skeptical
You stated:
"I think High Schools should start at about the same time that most colleges and employers will expect them to be there in the morning."
That time would be 8-9am NOT 7:30am. Furthermore, that time would be consistent rather than changing every year.
If you are advocating for a consistent start time for SPS's then "hallelujah". I think we would all agree with you. The rage and disgust expressed by the posters here (that you appear to disdain) is not as much for any particular time per se but for the capricious manner in which the Seattle district complicates the start times - leaving some families with children starting school 2 hours apart. Furthermore, they change the start times every 1-2 years - a serious complication for working families. We had to pay for before school care just to accommodate one of the districts capricious timing resets. In addition the district - in its infinite wisdom - sets the younger kids at later times and the older kids at early times, when the opposite arrangement would make more sense. That, for most of us, is the final straw.
I'll bet the school district didn't change the time of your paper routes every year. Maybe you wouldn't be so complacent then.
The current staff came up with this stinker. And I have little faith in their numbers. And by staying in their silos, nobody looks at the added staff costs, reduced achievement, impacts to before and afterschool activities, disrupted work schedules, longer routes when those mega elementaries get buil so that the district could cut a secretary FTE or two.
Who is looking at the big picture. Did Enfield EVER DO THAT? She gave the illusion of being competent, but then these, I don't know what to call them, "bimbo eruptions" keep popping up!
Thanks for the inside scoop. But who are those two mystery people in transportation and why on earth are they being given license to fashion ill-considered proposals? Is there a new head yet down there?
-curious
I agree with the elementary school parents whose start times really would be much too early or too late under this plan.
-skeptical
-skeptical
Of course all parents do not agree on when school should start for adolescents. Children are different & we each think that our own personal experience typifies the group. I go for a run at 4:30 every morning because it works for me. I never use an alarm clock; that is just when my body is ready to go. I am tempted to assume that it would work equally well for anyone else. I try not to think badly of others who can't seem to get out of bed before 5 to go to work or get exercise or do their chores. I do find store hours very inconvenient.
Evidently it is your experience that it does not matter what time school starts because you can wake at anytime and be equally alert. That's great. I wish I could be that way. However I don't drive or do my taxes after 9 at night, because I am not equally alert at all hours and no matter what time I go to bed I wake up around 4:00. I could work an evening job if I had no choice, but they would not get the productivity from me they would get earlier in the day.
Moving start times later will not work best for all students. Districts who have moved start times later have seen improved average academic outcomes. Evidently more kids learn best at certain hours of the day. Moving start times 50 minutes later was equivalent to raising teacher quality by 1 standard deviation. (Carrell, Maghakian, & West, A’s from Zzzz’s? The Causal Effect of School Start Time on the Academic Performance of Adolescents, supra, 3 AEJ: Econ. Policy 3, p. 80.)
The district should do the math. Is it cheaper to move start times or pay for academic coaches or teacher improvement plans for a similar outcome?
-early riser
If administrators from the building and/or JSCEE want to have a meeting BEFORE teachers are supposed to be there, this will also be a problem.
Other issues:
Substitute staff (teachers, SAEOPS, and paraprofessionals) may choose assignments with preferred starting times.
Why?
Staff, especially teachers, still have to be at school 30 minutes before the students do.
Teachers, nurses, and paraprofessionals assigned to two sites may have difficulties if assigned to schools with different start times.
This will also be a problem for school administators who might have to do the work or support staff as well as engaging in more teaching as they wait for substitutes to arrive.
This is about process.
--Old School Music