K-8s (and does $1M a year extra at South Shore help?)
South Shore PreK-8 came up as a topic during a discussion over conversion charters. I, like many, believe it would be a target (a willing one) for a conversion takeover. I suspect you could get the parents or teachers to agree and I'm sure LEV, who now directs the foundation money that South Shore gets, would also be agreeable.
That leaves the community and the district that may not like the idea of losing a $73M building to a charter entity.
One thing to keep in mind - ALL charters are their own districts. If they take over a district building, they can decide the parameters - within the law - of public use just as SPS does. If you use a school building for your local community meetings or Boy Scouts, you might have to find someplace else to go.
I also don't know what it would mean for the joint-use agreement that SPS has with Parks for SPS playfields. I would assume if a charter group takes over the building and its grounds and is its own district, they don't necessarily have to hold to the SPS/Parks agreement.
For those of you who don't know, South Shore has a long history in the district. What happened is that Stuart Sloan, of QFC fame, wanted to help SPS. That help first took the form of helping TT Minor which was a struggling elementary. I don't know exactly why but the help came mostly to part of the school (I think it was grades K-2 but not 3-5). You can imagine the issues that engendered and so that was abandoned.
The district then allowed the foundation, which was called the New School Foundation, to open South Shore at the old Sharples building. About this time, the amount given to the school was about $1M a year and again, I'm not sure everything it supported but it did support some wrap-around services to low-income students.
Their move to Sharples wasn't exactly greeted with open arms as it was practically in the backyard of Dunlop Elementary and just down the road - a mile or so - from K-8 African-American Academy. There was a struggle for students and when South Shore offered free pre-K, it got worse.
When you have a large number of low-income children, you can imagine the need. But you can also imagine that any school in that category would have loved $1M extra a year.
I will also note that somehow - and I stand by this statement - South Shore got pushed to the top of BEX III even though they clearly were NOT in one of the worst buildings in the district. It was a '70s open concept building with issues but one of the worst? No.
Because they got picked, it meant that Pathfinder K-8 in West Seattle didn't even though their entire middle school was in portables and their building was older and worse off. So the district HAD to find a better building for Pathfinder, chose Cooper, scattered Cooper's students (and took a neighborhood school off-line) and now, well, you can see the capacity issues in West Seattle quite clearly because of this decision. South Shore also has one of the more overbuilt schools in the district complete with a rotunda.
But someone here raised the question: how is South Shore doing after all those years of extra dollars? I did a fairly quick check of all the K-8s and South Shore does well.
Frankly, if we are "data-driven" district, then I see a red flag, a flare, something that screams out to me and that's WHAT'S UP WITH THE MATH?
Clearly, something isn't working. You can see good reading scores and then...the math scores. It's hard to see how kids do uniformly well in reading and yet not do well in math. (And by well, I'd like to see over 60%.)
Looking at K-8s (scores from 2011-2012):
Blaine has the least F/RL at 16% with 13% Special Ed. They have fairly high reading scores (90% for 4th grade, 76% for 8th grade) and even math scores at about 75%.
TOPS has FR/L of 30% plus 14% Special Ed and 11% ELL. TOPS has nearly 80% of both 4th and 8th graders passing reading. Their math scores are about the same as each other at about 70%. TOPS 4th grade math scores are telling across three years; 2009 - over 80%, 2010, under 60%, 2011, 70%. What's happening here?
ORCA has about 32% F/RL with 14% Special Ed. Their reading scores for both 4th/8th grade are about 66% but for math, while 4th has 51% passing, 8th has just 32% (and that 32% is a rise from previous years).
Pathfinder is about 36% FR/L with 26% Special Ed. Their 4th grade reading scores are good at about 74% but their 8th reading scores are at 93%. That is a GREAT trend to see. But again, you see the math scores down there with 4th at 56% and 8th at 48%.
Salmon Bay is at about 36% F/RL with 26% Special Ed. They have a similar trend to Pathfinder in reading; 4th grade is at 74% but 8th grade up to 93%. But again, we see their math down, 4th grade 56% and 8th grade 50%.
Jane Addams is at 44% F/RL with 16% Special Ed and 15% ELL. (I want to point out that like Broadview-Thompson, which is also in the northend, they carry a large diversity of students.)
JA has some of the more disappointing scores vis a vis the progress from 4th to 8th. Fourth grade reading is 77% but drops to 59% in 8th. Math at 4th is 65% but drops to 55% in 8th.
Pinehurst is at about 47% F/RL, with 32% Special Ed. They don't have 4th grade scores but their 3rd grade reading scores are at 80% with the 8th grade at 84%. Again, a great trend to see. But the math - 3rd grade at 40% and 8th at 48%.
Broadview-Thompson has a F/RL rate of 60% with 19% Special Ed and 18% ELL. What is interesting is that 4th grade reading was at a high of 78% but the 8th grade is down at 50%. The math is at 4th grade of 67% and 8th grade at 48%. Not good trending to be going down but they have a big load of diverse students.
South Shore has 63% FR/L with about 12% Special Ed and about 12% ELL. They are showing a great trend in reading with 4th grade at 64% and 8th at 81%. In math they are doing better than most but with a downward trend in 8th grade; 4th grad at 75% and 8th grade at 63%. However, both those math scores are better than most of the K-8s.
Madrona K-8 fares the worst in both scores and their high level of
need. They have a FR/L of 76% and 20% Special Ed. Reading - 4th grade
58%, 8th grade 56%. Math - 4th grade 33%, 8th grade 25%.
So you can look at those last three - the ones with the highest need and see the difference that the money that comes into South Shore might make. South Shore and B-T are nearly the same size (605-660) but Madrona is an anemic 368 (and in a large building so that is a sad thing to not see a nice building filled).
That leaves the community and the district that may not like the idea of losing a $73M building to a charter entity.
One thing to keep in mind - ALL charters are their own districts. If they take over a district building, they can decide the parameters - within the law - of public use just as SPS does. If you use a school building for your local community meetings or Boy Scouts, you might have to find someplace else to go.
I also don't know what it would mean for the joint-use agreement that SPS has with Parks for SPS playfields. I would assume if a charter group takes over the building and its grounds and is its own district, they don't necessarily have to hold to the SPS/Parks agreement.
For those of you who don't know, South Shore has a long history in the district. What happened is that Stuart Sloan, of QFC fame, wanted to help SPS. That help first took the form of helping TT Minor which was a struggling elementary. I don't know exactly why but the help came mostly to part of the school (I think it was grades K-2 but not 3-5). You can imagine the issues that engendered and so that was abandoned.
The district then allowed the foundation, which was called the New School Foundation, to open South Shore at the old Sharples building. About this time, the amount given to the school was about $1M a year and again, I'm not sure everything it supported but it did support some wrap-around services to low-income students.
Their move to Sharples wasn't exactly greeted with open arms as it was practically in the backyard of Dunlop Elementary and just down the road - a mile or so - from K-8 African-American Academy. There was a struggle for students and when South Shore offered free pre-K, it got worse.
When you have a large number of low-income children, you can imagine the need. But you can also imagine that any school in that category would have loved $1M extra a year.
I will also note that somehow - and I stand by this statement - South Shore got pushed to the top of BEX III even though they clearly were NOT in one of the worst buildings in the district. It was a '70s open concept building with issues but one of the worst? No.
Because they got picked, it meant that Pathfinder K-8 in West Seattle didn't even though their entire middle school was in portables and their building was older and worse off. So the district HAD to find a better building for Pathfinder, chose Cooper, scattered Cooper's students (and took a neighborhood school off-line) and now, well, you can see the capacity issues in West Seattle quite clearly because of this decision. South Shore also has one of the more overbuilt schools in the district complete with a rotunda.
But someone here raised the question: how is South Shore doing after all those years of extra dollars? I did a fairly quick check of all the K-8s and South Shore does well.
Frankly, if we are "data-driven" district, then I see a red flag, a flare, something that screams out to me and that's WHAT'S UP WITH THE MATH?
Clearly, something isn't working. You can see good reading scores and then...the math scores. It's hard to see how kids do uniformly well in reading and yet not do well in math. (And by well, I'd like to see over 60%.)
Looking at K-8s (scores from 2011-2012):
Blaine has the least F/RL at 16% with 13% Special Ed. They have fairly high reading scores (90% for 4th grade, 76% for 8th grade) and even math scores at about 75%.
TOPS has FR/L of 30% plus 14% Special Ed and 11% ELL. TOPS has nearly 80% of both 4th and 8th graders passing reading. Their math scores are about the same as each other at about 70%. TOPS 4th grade math scores are telling across three years; 2009 - over 80%, 2010, under 60%, 2011, 70%. What's happening here?
ORCA has about 32% F/RL with 14% Special Ed. Their reading scores for both 4th/8th grade are about 66% but for math, while 4th has 51% passing, 8th has just 32% (and that 32% is a rise from previous years).
Pathfinder is about 36% FR/L with 26% Special Ed. Their 4th grade reading scores are good at about 74% but their 8th reading scores are at 93%. That is a GREAT trend to see. But again, you see the math scores down there with 4th at 56% and 8th at 48%.
Jane Addams is at 44% F/RL with 16% Special Ed and 15% ELL. (I want to point out that like Broadview-Thompson, which is also in the northend, they carry a large diversity of students.)
JA has some of the more disappointing scores vis a vis the progress from 4th to 8th. Fourth grade reading is 77% but drops to 59% in 8th. Math at 4th is 65% but drops to 55% in 8th.
Broadview-Thompson has a F/RL rate of 60% with 19% Special Ed and 18% ELL. What is interesting is that 4th grade reading was at a high of 78% but the 8th grade is down at 50%. The math is at 4th grade of 67% and 8th grade at 48%. Not good trending to be going down but they have a big load of diverse students.
So you can look at those last three - the ones with the highest need and see the difference that the money that comes into South Shore might make. South Shore and B-T are nearly the same size (605-660) but Madrona is an anemic 368 (and in a large building so that is a sad thing to not see a nice building filled).
Comments
So, that was $1M per year over ten years ago (and only to K-2?....were those funds directed by the Principal and Staff...or the District....or was it run as a Charter in effect? I believe this to be a good example of what might not have come to pass despite the huge amount of financial input. This may be worth further illumination. Thanks
One and a half years to go
It wasn't until the second year that JA became an option school - did the school get the population that is more representative of what the school's population is (and will be.) These oldest of these students are now in 3rd grade.
It would be more representative to compare the 8th grade students with what those same students' scores were 4 years ago when they were in 4th grade. The school's population hasn't been around enough to stabilize and the data should be looked at very carefully before drawing conclusions.
There may be other factors confounding the data at other schools - I'm not sure - I just know that the scores are not particularly a valid representation at JA at this point in time.
Madrona neighbor
Perhaps some of the schools are supplementing with better textbooks and materials, since some math teachers dislike the mandated curricula. In the wealthier districts you may also have parents using outside tutors, since many know the math is poor.
Throwing more money at a bad curriculum is not helpful. Past Superintendent of Public Instruction Terry Bergeson spent tens of millions on teacher training programs for discovery math and it did not help. The math scores have remained terrible, especially for low income students.
Dan Dempsey is the best resource for analyzing math results. But he may be tired after years of explaining to the Seattle Board how other districts do better with superior textbooks.
I do have more confidence in the two new directors and Banda has made encouraging comments about improving the math. I hope they start over.
S parent
Curious
~bamboo
This type of analysis is further complicated by the fact that some of the K-8s receive an influx of students at grade 6 (i.e. Salmon Bay, a 2-up for elementary/ 4-up for middle school), and some show a drop-off in numbers at 6th grade (i. e. Broadview-Thomson and Blaine).
-North End Mom
They have an expanded music program and will receive Families and Education levy dollars for both their elementary and middle school programs.
They have an Arts Impact Grant that "trains teachers, brings in guest artists and integrate art programs into the school day curriculum." They also have a two-year grant with the NEA for two full-time artists in residence at the school.
You can only have this kind of commitment when you have principal, teachers and staff working together. It would be a shame to have all this good work not reach more students.
You wrote:
In a few more years, as the first year's assigned students move through and there are more years of data that reflect students who were tested at Jane Addams in 4th and then again in 8th, we'll have a more accurate picture.
Did you mean as the assignment students "move through" to 8th grade (so that they are tested now, in 4th grade and again in 8th grade), or "move through" as in all the way out of the K-8? If the kids have been at Jane Addams since kindergarten, then why wouldn't their progress be a reflection of the quality of the program...no matter how they got there?
-North End Mom
TS
- hearing the money rushing by
It will be a right mess but unfortunately, too soon to the BEX election for people to see that mess.
We can do a blow-by-blow here at the blog but really, it's like people documenting a lion eating an gazelle. What's the point?
Since JA is only 4 years old this year, the kindergartners who were there in the first year were only 2nd graders when the last testing was done and it will be 2 more years before we even have 4th grade data for them. That's why these statistics give no measure of how well the school is doing for kids who were there through the whole program.
The fourth grade stats reflect kids who were assigned or chose to enter at 2nd grade or later and the 8th grade stats kids who were assigned or chose to enter in at 6th grade or later. Both cohorts are much smaller than the ones that followed for obvious reasons so they're not terribly predictive yet either by themselves.
What would be interesting to see in this case and honestly more generally would be year over year test stats for a cohort. Test statistics are more aligned with the social class and wealth of the students than anything else by themselves (which is why they can be a terrible tool to judge school quality by). Schools theoretically should add value no matter what the student's starting points are. I.e. even when you're assigned kids a good school should produce general improvements across the whole student body.
Ben
American Indians make up 1.2% of the District's student population.
MSP Math Pass rate at grade 4 was 29.7%
and at grade 8 33.3%
The onslaught of lousy math materials has been particularly damaging to American Indians in rural high poverty high Native American population schools.
grade 4 pass rate followed by grade 8 for Indian Students at:
Lummi Nation 21.1% & 5%
Mt. Adams 4.3% & 13.5%
Tulalip 0.0%
Totem Middle School 8th at 10.0%
Wellpinit 26.1 & 10.3
Best is at
Neah Bay 50.0% for 4th grade
but only 15.4% for grade 8
====
So who cares?
OSPI?
Cohort I of SIG
Tulalip and Totem and Wellpinit were in cohort I of school improvement grant winners ... those scores above are after two years of the three years worth of SIG funding.
Thank you for the clarification. I should have realized that last year's 4th graders had not been at Jane Addams since kindergarten.
Yes, in theory, measuring the progress of students in a particular school should have nothing to do with how those kids got there, since it is the job of a public school to educate everyone.
K-8s are unusual, because they allow a comparison of scores over a large grade span. Most schools can only compare the progress of cohorts from 3rd to 5th grades.
-North End Mom
Teacher
Not too worried
-math whiner
I'd like my child to actually learn science, not just take science appreciation classes. Ad hominem attacks...sigh, they really don't help your argument.
Our middle school program became the focus of our principal when she started in the 2010 school year. From what I recently heard, almost all 8th graders are now taking Algebra, with some of the advanced kids taking Geometry. I found this rather surprising, but am excited to hear there is a push on math. We are also piloting a different math curriculum this year (I can't remember what it's called) that I found out about during curriculum night. My child's teacher likes it better for differentiation in class, as with EDM she had to create much of the homework herself. I'm not sure how the school went about getting a new curriculum, but I am pleased they aren't sold on EDM (as I never have been).
It surprises me to hear we are under capacity when we have waiting lists for nearly all grades.
- South Shore Mom
"I'm a South Shore parent (one that would bitterly fight any move to charter conversion)"
Good luck with that. The time to fight is NOW. I hope you are out campaigning against 1240. Hand out literature, phone bank and talk to neighbors.
If charters are allowed into the state, and the majority of teachers or parents sign onto charter schools, I'm afraid you won't have a chance. The time to act is now.
Teacher, I don't know anyone - on this forum or elsewhere - who wants drill and kill.
And, while I have your attention, let me remind you that it is almost always a bad idea to try to tell other people what they want or what they think or what they feel - unless they have specifically stated their desires, thoughts or feelings.
Finally, you create a false dichotomy when you express the choices as EDM or drill and kill. Those are not the choices. The choices are any of dozens of options, only one of which is EDM, and thousands of possible mixes of approaches, instructional material, and instructional strategies.
I should have known better than to post here. The South Shore distaste is always a bit strong.
- South Shore mom
In addition to SPS being willing to build South Shore a new building for that $1M a year, they are also willing to build additional capacity for many, many millions of dollars in the south end rather than cancel that MOU (as they did with McGilvra's PTA, despite significant capacity availability at nearby Madrona).
It may seem contradictory, but I do not begrudge the kids at South Shore their small class sizes (currently the smallest in the district, I think) or their gigantic new building (planned for 1,000 students and currently serving 609 + preschool). It's great. Really.
I do, however, object to screwing over other kids in SPS for the kids at South Shore to get the benefits of lowered class size + enormous new building. It is not at all the fault of the South Shore families that SPS administrators have made decisions to give their school favorable class sizes and building arrangements - but they should be aware that it has, and is, happening.
As far as Cliff Mass, I miss the man as much as anyone and couldn't believe when they fired him. I wrote a nasty email to KUOW about it. But I think he might be wrong about EDM. The fact that math classes were being discussed at all was fantastic and I used the term " fogie" in the most affectionate way possible.
Not
'
HCMom
If you mean students have to memorize basic facts so that they become second nature, IN ADDITION TO logic, proof, and exploration of multiple techniques for solving problems, maybe more people favor it.
How far would you get playing piano if you didn't "drill and kill" until you can to play the notes without thinking about it? How far would you get learning a foreign language if you didn't "drill and kill" the first couple of thousand words and the verb tenses before you try to enjoy the literature?
The schools immediately surrounding South Shore, particularly those with overcrowding issues (Wing Luke and Graham Hill), are most affected by South Shore's MOU. Dunlap and Emerson aren't currently pushing their available capacity, so maybe the MOU is fine for now. But I think it would be totally wrong to pack kids into nearby schools like sardines and while maintaining the lowest class sizes in the district for South Shore. Do I understand what you're saying - that making it equally awful for all kids is also repellant? Yes, and I mostly agree, but I think that distributing overcrowding issues doesn't mean making academics equally crappy for every kid.
My friend at work is never going to post on this blog or any blog because she's too embarassed by her poor English (unlike me, bad grammar and all). She has her kids in South Shore and loves the school. I believe her son uses EDM and Saxon math and her 7th grader this summer was given a math workbook to work on as the kid already works 2 grades above. My kids go to northend schools and when I asked about other math books I can get besides EDM like Saxon (mainly because I really had a tough time with the English terms/explanations this text uses so I wasn't able to help my kids), I was told by two teachers, they couldn't recommend a different text. It was from this blog that I heard about Singapore math and where to get it.
My piont is there's inequity among southend schools too when you look at how South Shore benefits from extra resources-- hugh grant and now an extra $1mil. Still money is money and if outside funding helps one school, I hope the district is wisely using that saving to help other schools.
momster
South Shore got a lot of favored status from the District and it was due to its political connections that it was promoted on the BEX list. The consequence of that promotion was the closure of Cooper and the current capacity issues in West Seattle. I resent the District for that decision, but not the South Shore community. It would be nice for the South Shore community to acknowledge it - it would cost them nothing - but there's no going back and fixing it.
Before we judge the outcomes at South Shore too harshly, please remember that when South Shore got their new building they expanded and a lot of new students entered the school at higher grades. These new students diluted the South Shore culture for a while and impacted the school's test scores as well. In time, those students will be assimilated into the South Shore culture and South Shore will have time to address any deficiencies in their preparation. The test scores at South Shore, particularly in the higher grades, is not purely a representation of South Shore's work right now. Let's keep that in mind when we look at the numbers.
We were just saddled with a new assistant principal who is infamous in the district for her incompetence and dishonesty.
She was previously a supervisor in SpEd and well-known for taking cases involving unhappy parents and making them worse (see recent Seattle Times article). It was also common knowledge that she got promoted to supervisor because of truly masterful skills in rear-end kissing and excelling at covering her own rear end by blaming others.
Apparently for the last couple years in the SpEd circus nobody knew (or cared) where she was, often not showing up for meetings or answering emails. This is what we have to look forward to at South Shore? We’ve worked hard at making a great program here and we don’t want it threatened.
Apparently this person just completed an assistant principal internship at another SSD school last year and when it came time to hire a new assistant principal she wasn’t even selected to interview for the job. I know one teacher there who said she managed to alienate the entire staff.
That sounds like Marni Campbell and the usual politics at JSCEE. But I know who you mean, and feel for you.
Could a school community just say "No thank you. We would rather the position go unfilled than have that person working in our community."?
Oompah
I know that the superintendent has final authority for hiring principals, but I don't know if that extends to assistant principals. I think it does.
I'm sure the answer can be found in the PASS CBA.